Warrior BiS w/o Heirloom

[Clickplease]

Ladolce, sorry - I was typing with the speed of the wind at my back as class was nearing its end - it sounded a little rough, and my math was shit - I apologize.



But, you have to consider what really matters in a WSG combat experience. You want your BT, HS, VR, & Executes to hit as hard as they can, and crit for as high as possible. To nerf those abilities for a marginal increase in Rend(DoT) is just not worth it. You can argue the +6 agil, but I argue +2 strength +3 stam is better. You can argue the 30dmg proc, but I argue that 1.01% to hit is better. Or we could just agree to disagree.



If I had my choice of weapons, I'd duel wield Razor's Edge. But I'm not doing it for the weapon dps, I'm doing it for the strength & hit.

 

[Ladolce]

Ladolce, sorry - I was typing with the speed of the wind at my back as class was nearing its end - it sounded a little rough, and my math was shit - I apologize.



But, you have to consider what really matters in a WSG combat experience. You want your BT, HS, VR, & Executes to hit as hard as they can, and crit for as high as possible. To nerf those abilities for a marginal increase in Rend(DoT) is just not worth it. You can argue the +6 agil, but I argue +2 strength +3 stam is better. You can argue the 30dmg proc, but I argue that 1.01% to hit is better. Or we could just agree to disagree.



If I had my choice of weapons, I'd duel wield Razor's Edge. But I'm not doing it for the weapon dps, I'm doing it for the strength & hit.

allow me to weigh the pros of the two.



Assuming dual Shadowfangs vs. Dual Butcher's Slicers



[Item]Shadowfang[/Item] x2



12 agility. - 1.68% crit, 1.038% dodge, 24 armor.

1 PPM chance for 30 shadow dmg bolt on both weapons.

29+56=85... 85/2=42.5... 42.5/2.7= 15.74074074074 Weapon DPS per shadowfang

^^^ note that the tooltip rounds UP to the nearest tenth.

15.74x2= 31.48 total weapon DPS



[Item]Butcher's Slicer[/Item] <--- what clickplease says is better than shadowfang.



4 strength - 8 AP

3 stamina - 60 health

4 hit - 2.02% hit

25+48=73... 73/2=36.5... 36.5/2.6= 14.0384615 Weapon DPS

14.038x2= 28.07 (approximate) Total Weapon DPS



Specced Fury, with 300 AP, the white damage should be something like this.

For [Item]Shadowfang[/Item]

300/14= 21.42 additional DPS to your MH. AP does not effect OH DPS.

MH DPS- 15.74+21.42= 37.16 x1.15= 42.73

OH DPS- 15.74x1.25= 19.675 x 1.15= 22.62



Fury specialization provides 25% dmg to your OH and 10% dmg to all physical damage, and battle stance provides another 5% damage multiplier on top of that.



For [Item]Butcher's Slicer[/Item]

Adding in the 8 additional AP

308/14= 22 Dps to MH

MH DPS - 14.04+22= 36.04 x 1.15 = 41.45

OH DPS - 14.04x1.25= 17.55x1.15 = 20.18



So shadowfang has approximately 1.28 more DPS on the MH and 2.44 more DPS on OH on WHITE DAMAGE



Now, lets take into account our instant abilities.

We have concluded and proved that only AP is included in the calculation of bloodthirst and heroic strike and among our other abilities. For maximum damage dealing we will assume that you are only using bloodthirst because it has a WAY better damage to rage ratio than any other ability.



Bloodthirst - Spell - World of Warcraft



lets plug in values of 300 and 308 and compare the difference.

300x62/100= 186 damage

with shadowfangs your bloodthirst will hit for 186 damage



308x62/100= 190.96 dmg

with 8 more AP you have effectively increased your bloodthirst damage by 5.

But wait... thats not 5 DPS we are talking about...



Rage is normalized so that warriors, NO MATTER WEAPON SPEED OR DAMAGE, Will produce 6.5 rage per second with their MH and 3.25 rage per second with their OH. you can look it up in this thread.

warrior rage

So lets assume your have say, a 10% increased chance to hit through talents and gear, this is personally higher than what I run with.. but lots of people prefer that. this means you have a 14% chance to miss. Crits do not increase rage, misses do not increase rage, however parried,blocked, and dodged attacks do. So this is simple. your rage generation will be 9.75x0.86= 8.35 rage per second. bloodthirst, however costs 20 rage. this means theoretically (although the CD is 3 seconds), you could hit with a BT every 2.3 seconds. Because the CD is 3 seconds on BT, it is impossible to use our rage that efficiently, sadly. actually in a six second period though this means you can almost exactly perform 1 piercing howl and two bloodthirsts. in six seconds we get 10 more damage from our bloodthirsts meaning 1.66 more DPS! wooo! Oh wait, if you look above you'll notice that shadowfang has "1.28 more DPS on the MH and 2.44 more DPS on OH on WHITE DAMAGE". hmmm



so now lets compare that. 1.68% crit chance, 1% dodge chance, 3.82 DPS on white damage, shadowbolt proc, and increased chance to proc crusader on instant strikes (I can do that math later if you would like me to) on shadowfang.

60hp, 1.66DPS (assuming you use bloodthirst every time its off cooldown) and 2% hit for Butcher's Slicer.

 

[Avador]

I just wish that WSG Sword was Unique-Equipped so I could have multiple of them with different enchants.... oh blizzard...

 

[Zatox]

Only problem with your math is you didn't take hit rating into account. The more hit you have the more dps your offhand is going to do.



Edit: never mind I didn't fully read the last part

 

[ceruleus]

ladolce and clickplease u guys are total nerds... i love it

 

[Clickplease]

k, bear with me;



So yes, while SF provides a marginal increase in white dmg, the Butcher's Slicer gives a 2.02% chance to hit with that same white damage. What good is a few dps on MH & OH if it won't hit as often as the latter?



You said it yourself, that misses do not increase rage generation. Hits do, the higher your hit chance - the more RPS you get. Hit rating is the one and only way to increase your rage generation.

**You factored in 10% to hit when comparing both sets of weapons in your wargame theory, when in actuality it would be 10% to hit w/ SF & 12% to hit w/ Slicer.



Chance to crit & chance to hit are directly linked. Even though SF has the 6 agility, you must remember that the Slicer has the 1.01% to hit which directly increases your crit rating as well. If your soft hit caped, maybe not the special attacks - but defiantly the white damage, which should not be ignored.



Why on earth would I only use Bloodthirst in a combat situation?? I sure hope your rage generation is better than that, because thats the exact reason I moved my hit rating up from the soft cap.

I always open up with BT, as is common sense, but it is immediately followed by HS. Rinse, repeat - add Rend/Clap/Howl as needed, not a problem. And I am still able to maintain my BT > HS rotation without missing a beat most of the time. And don't even get me started on the Executes... I bet you can take the words right out of my mouth by now lol.



SF vs. Slicer - Crusader! There is no way a 2.6s weapon has any difference noticeable by the smallest microscope of usefulness on a 2.7s weapon when applied to Crusader procs. You will seriously have my undivided attention if you can prove to me that 0.1 seconds means something to that enchant.



But yeah, I think your post did a great job of the math - looks like you spent some time on it, and its good to see at least someones checking up on this stuff I spew on the forums lol.

 

[Ladolce]

k, bear with me;



So yes, while SF provides a marginal increase in white dmg, the Butcher's Slicer gives a 2.02% chance to hit with that same white damage. What good is a few dps on MH & OH if it won't hit as often as the latter?



You said it yourself, that misses do not increase rage generation. Hits do, the higher your hit chance - the more RPS you get. Hit rating is the one and only way to increase your rage generation.

**You factored in 10% to hit when comparing both sets of weapons in your wargame theory, when in actuality it would be 10% to hit w/ SF & 12% to hit w/ Slicer.



Chance to crit & chance to hit are directly linked. Even though SF has the 6 agility, you must remember that the Slicer has the 1.01% to hit which directly increases your crit rating as well. If your soft hit caped, maybe not the special attacks - but defiantly the white damage, which should not be ignored.



Why on earth would I only use Bloodthirst in a combat situation?? I sure hope your rage generation is better than that, because thats the exact reason I moved my hit rating up from the soft cap.

I always open up with BT, as is common sense, but it is immediately followed by HS. Rinse, repeat - add Rend/Clap/Howl as needed, not a problem. And I am still able to maintain my BT > HS rotation without missing a beat most of the time. And don't even get me started on the Executes... I bet you can take the words right out of my mouth by now lol.



SF vs. Slicer - Crusader! There is no way a 2.6s weapon has any difference noticeable by the smallest microscope of usefulness on a 2.7s weapon when applied to Crusader procs. You will seriously have my undivided attention if you can prove to me that 0.1 seconds means something to that enchant.



But yeah, I think your post did a great job of the math - looks like you spent some time on it, and its good to see at least someones checking up on this stuff I spew on the forums lol.

I'm loving this little debate, its healthy and I'm learning a lot from it I think and hopefully a lot of the community will too. On the Hit rating piece, You're right I should have calculated the extra hit into the RPS (Rage per second) with the butcher's slicers. But even so the increase in rage generation you will see is minuscule at best (2.02% to be exact). As for your claim to be able to spam BT and HS that is simply not possible without the assistance of a rage potion, with the new normalized rage system. If you can prove otherwise post a little video on the dummy on theramore and try to keep both of those abilities on CD (50 rage every 3 seconds, not gonna happen). Also I might add that when the tooltip on HS says use in moments of "excess rage", thats probably the best use for it, its rage to dmg ratio isnt that great. The best use for HS i've found, because HS isnt on the GCD, is to pair it with your bloodthirst (hit both buttons at the same time ) right when two white hits are about to come in, which, on my character, ends up becoming a burst with a potential of about 500 dmg without sader, and about 900 with . This ofcourse is only possible if you have 50 rage saved up.



crusader is very well known to be 1ppm. to calculate the difference that will be made between the two weapons, we will convert that to PPH (procs per hit is a percentage chance of a proc on hit), because the concept is that each of shadowfangs hits have a higher PPH than Butcher's Slicer thus more procs will be seen the more instant swings you make; thats especially true with dual razor's edges (lmao orc MAYBE).



To find the PPH you simply divide the weapon speed by what I would describe as the average # of seconds between procs. The avg # of seconds between procs is easily calculate for crusader because its ppm is one, so its 60/1=60. If this were Lifestealing, it would be 60/6=10. So this value is calculated by dividing the PPM into a minute, easily stated.

So the procs per hit for Shadowfang is 2.7/60= .045

This means that every time a shadowfang enchanted with sader hits there is a 4.5% of a proc

For the Butcher it would be 2.6/60= .0433.

For the Butcher's Slicer there is a 4.3333% chance of a proc

Razor's Edge would have exactly a 4% chance of proccing crusader per strike.



Now that we have derived the PPH chance, lets figure out how many more procs we would be getting with a shadowfang as opposed to a Razor's Edge. To find the difference between the Butcher's slicer and the shadowfang, take the difference between SF and Razor's Edge and divide it by 3 and bwammo. I'll post that math ofc since it seems to be what I do here, lmao.



So I'm going to keep using my two bloodthirst-1piercing howl every 6 seconds rotation, although with the use of rend and thunderclap you get more strikes, meaning more procs. But these abillities do not deal as much damage as BT in general, and the rotation works out quite nicely with the current state of warrior rage generation. So 2 more strikes every 6 seconds, 20 more strikes every 60 seconds. At 4.5% proc chance in 20 more strikes you will get an ADDITIONAL 90% of a proc in 60 seconds. with razor's edge thats 4.0x20=80

Shadowfang combat PPM -1.9

Razor's Edge combat PPM - 1.8



^Thats the difference.



edit: forgot to mention. Butcher's Slicer Combat PPM is 1.86666666666666666666666

 

[fochixi]

Hit rating is the one and only way to increase your rage generation.

Haste also increases rage generation

 

[Ladolce]

Haste also increases rage generation

The slower the weapon, the higher the rage generation and DPS increase will be from haste. Sadly, haste is not very viable aside from trinket... but if we are speaking in terms of BiS the 12 stamina from AGM is preferable for most situations. because the way AP scales into our new attacks 7str on gloves is a much better choice than 10 haste in my opinion. Most warriors use 15 agility because its one of the easiest ways to implement crit into our gear.

 

[ceruleus]

because the way AP scales into our new attacks 7str on gloves is a much better choice than 10 haste in my opinion. Most warriors use 15 agility because its one of the easiest ways to implement crit into our gear.

I've had a couple warrior twinks over the years and I think 7 str is BiS... crit chance is nice but AP is really what matters imo

 

[Ladolce]

I do as well in wsg, however back in the arena days I used 15 agility on my gloves for the 2% crit and 1.2% dodge and 30 armor. In wsg I think the static 14 ap probably benefits us more due to it adding to our burst POTENTIAL, rather than burst frequency. High amounts of burst is what kills flag carriers.

 

[fochixi]

The slower the weapon, the higher the rage generation and DPS increase will be from haste. Sadly, haste is not very viable aside from trinket... but if we are speaking in terms of BiS the 12 stamina from AGM is preferable for most situations. because the way AP scales into our new attacks 7str on gloves is a much better choice than 10 haste in my opinion. Most warriors use 15 agility because its one of the easiest ways to implement crit into our gear.

I wasn't really speaking about which enchant or item is "best." If there was more haste gear at 19, it would have a bigger impact rage generation. While hit is certainly the best way to improve your rage generation, it's not the only way. I would keep an eye on haste.

 

[Hithere]

I use a shadowfang MH butchers slicer OH atm, i kinda want a faster off hand tho. I dunno for sure i havent played my warr sicne yesterday or something.

 

[Ladolce]

I suggest Shadowfang with crusader in MH and Razor's Edge with 15 str OH. If you have a gutterblade, that will make a great OH as well.

 

[fochixi]

Since we have a nice discussion going on ways to improve warrior rage, I wanted to see if I could get some help/confirmation on haste. While there isn't a whole bunch of it available at the moment, it appears there is more on the way with some of the new the new heirlooms. I'm seeing a potential haste numbers in the 30's and that's without sacrificing a bunch of other stats.



I'm no captain math, so please jump in if I'm way off on this.



Current haste rating conversion: 1 haste = .475%



I used a moderate haste estimate of 26, which gets me 12.35% haste



insert that into weapon speed formula: 2.7 / ((12.35/100) + 1) on 2.7 weapon... and we get new weapon speed of 2.403...



So that has wariors getting 2.7 rage generation at 2.4 speeds!



The reason why this is important is ToT and burst potential. It's rare that you are going to get long windows of time where you are just beating on the opposition. I like to look at it in spans of various amounts of time.



For example: If a fight lasts 10 seconds which set up gives you the most rage generation? dual 2.7 or dual 2.4? The answer is 2.4 of course because even though it generates less rage per swing, it gets one more swing in a 10 second span of time, while 2.7 speed weapons don't connect with their 4th swing until 10.8



When you add haste to this you improve your burst potential because you now get 2.7 rage amounts at 2.4 speed and that's a pretty significant boost. About 33% more rage for dual 2.7 in that 10 second window.



without haste in a 10 second fight: dual 2.7 gets you about 79 rage and 2.4 gets you 93.6



Now you add in the 26 haste for that same 10 second fight. dual 2.7(now 2.4 spd) gets you 105.3 and 2.4(now 2.14 spd) still gets the same 93.6 (it's half a second too slow for swing number 5)



I'd recommeng taking another look at haste and your average encounter time to see what's really the best for you. Long numbers and training dummies are all well and good, but, burst is now our bread and butter. It's worth a second look.







Of course this could all be wrong so I'd love to see one of the resident numbers experts confirm my math. (*edit* I already I realized I didn't account for the 0 swing time mark but, the theory is still sound)

 

[Ladolce]

Since we have a nice discussion going on ways to improve warrior rage, I wanted to see if I could get some help/confirmation on haste. While there isn't a whole bunch of it available at the moment, it appears there is more on the way with some of the new the new heirlooms. I'm seeing a potential haste numbers in the 30's and that's without sacrificing a bunch of other stats.



I'm no captain math, so please jump in if I'm way off on this.



Current haste rating conversion: 1 haste = .475%



I used a moderate haste estimate of 26, which gets me 12.35% haste



insert that into weapon speed formula: 2.7 / ((12.35/100) + 1) on 2.7 weapon... and we get new weapon speed of 2.403...



So that has wariors getting 2.7 rage generation at 2.4 speeds!



The reason why this is important is ToT and burst potential. It's rare that you are going to get long windows of time where you are just beating on the opposition. I like to look at it in spans of various amounts of time.



For example: If a fight lasts 10 seconds which set up gives you the most rage generation? dual 2.7 or dual 2.4? The answer is 2.4 of course because even though it generates less rage per swing, it gets one more swing in a 10 second span of time, while 2.7 speed weapons don't connect with their 4th swing until 10.8



When you add haste to this you improve your burst potential because you now get 2.7 rage amounts at 2.4 speed and that's a pretty significant boost. About 33% more rage for dual 2.7 in that 10 second window.



without haste in a 10 second fight: dual 2.7 gets you about 79 rage and 2.4 gets you 93.6



Now you add in the 26 haste for that same 10 second fight. dual 2.7(now 2.4 spd) gets you 105.3 and 2.4(now 2.14 spd) still gets the same 93.6 (it's half a second too slow for swing number 5)



I'd recommeng taking another look at haste and your average encounter time to see what's really the best for you. Long numbers and training dummies are all well and good, but, burst is now our bread and butter. It's worth a second look.







Of course this could all be wrong so I'd love to see one of the resident numbers experts confirm my math. (*edit* I already I realized I didn't account for the 0 swing time mark but, the theory is still sound)

You are correct, your theory is sound, however it is simply impossible to predict your literal ToT, infinite possibilities. I do my math with the expectation of being in an organized premade where the ToT is significantly larger than in a pug.

 

[fochixi]

You are correct, your theory is sound, however it is simply impossible to predict your literal ToT, infinite possibilities. I do my math with the expectation of being in an organized premade where the ToT is significantly larger than in a pug.

Thanks for the second look............it sounds like a "but." What numbers are you working with? If there is something I'm missing I'd like to test it out. All the numbers I run with my gear favor haste, over any length of time. While I can't predict what my literal ToT will be, 33% more rage is worth giving up other stats, IMO. If you have the healing support of a premade, your gear selection should open up to allow you to gear more offensively...unless you're a FC only.



The two most important things that a warrior brings to a pug is PH and burst. More rage means you can reapply PH easier, cast more damaging spells, and your Execute will hit harder. Until my guild hits level 20, I'm not going to be able to get any real testing. When I run the math, haste improves that more than the small amount of str/crit I lose.

 

[examinerEU]

Sounds interesting with the addition of haste; but i see the issue with losing too many dps stats :/

No use applying piercing howl if you hit like a wet paper bag; because it could work against your favour keeping an enemy which hits harder, closer to you.

But i like the increased rage regen; as it means you can continuously rage dump your moves which could be an increase in dps.

Interesting; but sadly a lot of effort to test out; guild level 20 ftl

I look forward to the restults gluck!

 

[fochixi]

Sounds interesting with the addition of haste; but i see the issue with losing too many dps stats :/

No use applying piercing howl if you hit like a wet paper bag; because it could work against your favour keeping an enemy which hits harder, closer to you.

But i like the increased rage regen; as it means you can continuously rage dump your moves which could be an increase in dps.

Interesting; but sadly a lot of effort to test out; guild level 20 ftl

I look forward to the restults gluck!

I'm making sure to hit my max guild rep so I'm honored by the time the guild gets there. So far the places I plan on swapping gear really don't cause me to lose a lot of dps stats.



Fishing Hat and AGM cause me to lose some Stam. Taking the Hunter/Shaman heirloom helm over the plate one causes me to miss out on the a little crit, armor, and str. Gloves enchant for haste instead of strength.



Rough number on my gear after swap:



-13 str

-1.32% crit

-17 stam



+26 haste

+4 hit



Very minor dps stat drop to improve rage generation. You also have to remember that your white damage is sped up. It's something that I think will need some real testing once we have access to the gear, but, it looks promising. It's giving me a little hope for my warrior

 

[pilgrim]

I'm making sure to hit my max guild rep so I'm honored by the time the guild gets there. So far the places I plan on swapping gear really don't cause me to lose a lot of dps stats.



Fishing Hat and AGM cause me to lose some Stam. Taking the Hunter/Shaman heirloom helm over the plate one causes me to miss out on the a little crit, armor, and str. Gloves enchant for haste instead of strength.



Rough number on my gear after swap:



-13 str

-1.32% crit

-17 stam



+26 haste

+4 hit



Very minor dps stat drop to improve rage generation. You also have to remember that your white damage is sped up. It's something that I think will need some real testing once we have access to the gear, but, it looks promising. It's giving me a little hope for my warrior

This to me sounds really, really smart. I dig the originality of it and I dont think anyone else is currently trying to make it work. If you use double like stealing, combined with piercing howl to add ToT and all the other tricks you can rock to gain life, it might be the best option.



Im really interested in how it works and what gear set you are using.