Warrior BiS w/o Heirloom

[Ladolce]

This to me sounds really, really smart. I dig the originality of it and I dont think anyone else is currently trying to make it work. If you use double like stealing, combined with piercing howl to add ToT and all the other tricks you can rock to gain life, it might be the best option.



Im really interested in how it works and what gear set you are using.

26 haste=12.43% weapon speed increase. this will translate directly to a 12.43% rage increase. not that great imo. 6.5 RPS(rage per second) from your MH, 3.25 RPS on your OH via the new normalized rage system... 9.75RPS... if you have 10% hit you still have a 14% chance to miss.



9.25 x .86 = 7.95500

now, lets add a 12.43% rage increase.



7.95500 x 1.1243 = 8.9438065



by sacrificing 13strength, 1.32% crit, and 17 stam he has successfully gained about 1 rage every second. yay.

 

[fochixi]

26 haste=12.43% weapon speed increase. this will translate directly to a 12.43% rage increase. not that great imo. 6.5 RPS(rage per second) from your MH, 3.25 RPS on your OH via the new normalized rage system... 9.75RPS... if you have 10% hit you still have a 14% chance to miss.



9.25 x .86 = 7.95500

now, lets add a 12.43% rage increase.



7.95500 x 1.1243 = 8.9438065



by sacrificing 13strength, 1.32% crit, and 17 stam he has successfully gained about 1 rage every second. yay.

*edit*

NVM I get where you are coming from with this.



If you want to calculate it on rage per second that is fine by me. I think that is a misrepresentation of how warriors work in pvp. Rage gains come in bursts with your weapon swings and don't just give you 1 rage ticks every second. I recommend you look at it in practical situations. IMO, RPS has no real merit in burst situations, and that's what pvp is.



The reality is that if you're going with dual 2.7 weapons and you hit three times in a row, you're going to generate almost 30 extra rage..............not 10. I'm prediciting that a special or two that you can pull off with that extra rage is going to put out more damage than the extra ap and crit will.



I do appreciate the numbers though since it gives me another way of looking at it. Can't wait to put the new gear on and run the numbers for real.

 

[fochixi]

This to me sounds really, really smart. I dig the originality of it and I dont think anyone else is currently trying to make it work. If you use double like stealing, combined with piercing howl to add ToT and all the other tricks you can rock to gain life, it might be the best option.



Im really interested in how it works and what gear set you are using.

Thanks for the vote of confidence. I'm still in the theory phase of it and as you can see from the discussion trail, I might not be 100% accurate. I'm trying to get a complete understanding of it as well since I'm not really a numbers guy. I found what I thought were accurate formulas for what I was trying to do so I'm just going off rough calculations at the moment. Once Guild BoA's become available, I'll be able to get some real testing done. From the math I'm doing, it looks promising, but, I'm still waiting on clarifications.



Ultimately, I'll try it regardless since there's not much else for warriors to do otherwise, but, I think it's going to work.

 

[Ladolce]

*edit*

NVM I get where you are coming from with this.



If you want to calculate it on rage per second that is fine by me. I think that is a misrepresentation of how warriors work in pvp. Rage gains come in bursts with your weapon swings and don't just give you 1 rage ticks every second. I recommend you look at it in practical situations. IMO, RPS has no real merit in burst situations, and that's what pvp is.



The reality is that if you're going with dual 2.7 weapons and you hit three times in a row, you're going to generate almost 30 extra rage..............not 10. I'm prediciting that a special or two that you can pull off with that extra rage is going to put out more damage than the extra ap and crit will.



I do appreciate the numbers though since it gives me another way of looking at it. Can't wait to put the new gear on and run the numbers for real.

Ok, so what are you proposing we calculate by, if not rage per second. Rage per swing? well haste doesnt increase our rage per swing. 30 extra rage? your completely off. 12.43% was the number that YOU came up with, you just stated it as "%increase in haste". haste only effects our white dmg, rage only comes from our white dmg. thus its easy to compute that a 12.43% increase in haste is a 12.43% increase in rage. its not rocket science. Algebra at the best.

 

[Ladolce]

oh shit you ninja edited that. lol. but my statement still stands, rage per swing will never change, RPS is a universal way to interpret an increase in rage. And no offense but what I'm doing here is, in a sense, running the numbers for real. every time i do testing on a dummy its ruined by either, RNG, an inaccurate hit chance , or my targets armor when i try to use a 19 paladin.

 

[fochixi]

oh shit you ninja edited that. lol. but my statement still stands, rage per swing will never change, RPS is a universal way to interpret an increase in rage. And no offense but what I'm doing here is, in a sense, running the numbers for real. every time i do testing on a dummy its ruined by either, RNG, an inaccurate hit chance , or my targets armor when i try to use a 19 paladin.

Yeah i was interpreting what you said wrong and then i reread it.



I get what you're doing and you certainly listed an accurate rps increase. Also, I never said it changes your rage per swing. Rage is calculated off base swing speed. I only said that you generate 2.7 rage at 2.4 speed.....Which is what haste does. It changes the amount of rage generated over a span of time. Calculating it on a simple rage per second formula misrepresents the way rage is generated in pvp. That's not to say that you did anything wrong. Your math is accurate and it's certainly "runing the numbers." That's why edited my response since you do give people another way of looking at it. However I feel about the math doesn't make it any less accurate. I just don't think it's applicable to pvp.



That's why I broke down the numbers and explain the method I was using by showing the difference in that 10 second window of time. That's how I evaluate my choices for gear and spec. Warriors only have burst now. I have to base it on that type of scenario to get an idea of how it will perfrom in pvp. Since you don't like to do it that way, you ran the numbers in your own way. While that's all well and good for training dummies and pve............it's not accurate for pvp.



You are 100% that haste does not have a significant effect on rps. Luckily that is not a stat warriors should be concerned with.

 

[Ladolce]

yeah but why would you assume that you have a 10 second window of time rather than a 10.8 second, 12.4 second, etc? Do you really know how long you spend on target on average? Would you not rather be consistently better than better in the rare occasion that you are on target for a very specific window of time?

It just doesnt seem possible to determine your average ToT, too many possibilities.

 

[fochixi]

yeah but why would you assume that you have a 10 second window of time rather than a 10.8 second, 12.4 second, etc? Do you really know how long you spend on target on average? Would you not rather be consistently better than better in the rare occasion that you are on target for a very specific window of time?

It just doesnt seem possible to determine your average ToT, too many possibilities.

Yes I do claculations on a variety of time spans. When I get a complete list of the times I plan on posting it here, but it's not to difficult to figure it out if you know the formulas. This helps me decide which situations to get involved in. Can I down this guy in 10 secs? 15? 20? Is there a place I can use LoS to reset the timer? Can I kite? Etc. I'm constantly measuring which spans of time are an advantage for me and which are not. In a way, this allows me to be consistently better, because I am choosing to engage in encounters that favor me.



That's the reality of pvp. You're not in combat for the entire bg. It's a bunch of brief encounters. Even when they chain together and you get back to back fights, you're still looking at seperate encounters and seperate blocks of time because you don't generate rage in 1 sec ticks. That's why rps, although accurate, isn't good pvp stat, IMO. Warrior damage and rage are all generated in bursts. That's why I ran it that way.



Now if we're talking varying weapon speeds then I think your math is better there. I haven't tested yet, but, I'd be willing to bet those results are closer to what you are talking about since someone can have fast off hand to get a steady stream of rage. Although they can also make sure they pick weapons to maximize the most out of a set span of time. I was going to try and tackle that one next, but, I think your math saved me a lot of work. So when I thank you for the imput, I am sincere.

 

[Ladolce]

Lmao so your telling me you will switch to a different set of gear just because.... "I think i will down this guy in approxamitely 10.2 seconds, so i must equip my gear with 7% haste and 2.4 weapon speeds to maximize dmg". at this point i think your just bull shitting me because you dont want to admit that haste isnt viable. there is my input.

 

[Rivfader]

yeah but why would you assume that you have a 10 second window of time rather than a 10.8 second, 12.4 second, etc? Do you really know how long you spend on target on average? Would you not rather be consistently better than better in the rare occasion that you are on target for a very specific window of time?

It just doesnt seem possible to determine your average ToT, too many possibilities.

/thread right here, RPS is the most practical way to calculate haste's benefit since it is impossible to make sure that your fight last an exact amount of time and then giving value to a state based off the assumption that your fights will always and only last that set amount of time. As oftemn as that haste would give you 30 extra rage it will also give you 0 extra rage.

 

[fochixi]

Lmao so your telling me you will switch to a different set of gear just because.... "I think i will down this guy in approxamitely 10.2 seconds, so i must equip my gear with 7% haste and 2.4 weapon speeds to maximize dmg". at this point i think your just bull shitting me because you dont want to admit that haste isnt viable. there is my input.

Never said that. I'm going to play according to my strengths. Warriors have lost a lot of utility and have become completely reliant on burst. I'm going to gear accordingly and choose my battles wisely. I'll have gear swaps for fc'ing, but, I'm not suggesting carrying a bunch of different gears sets and labeling them "10 sec gear" "13.2 sec gear" If you don't want to give my math a proper run, that's fine. No need to get snippy and try to twist what I'm saying. I've been up front with my numbers, how I got them, and why I used them.



Some people might find it helpful. You don't. Fine by me. If a month from now it turns out that I was wrong, and haste isn't viable, I'll have no problems owning up to it. I think you're doing yourself a disservice by not taking the time to consider a different point of view and by using numbers that do not accurately represent the way that warriors gain rage in pvp.

 

[fochixi]

/thread right here, RPS is the most practical way to calculate haste's benefit since it is impossible to make sure that your fight last an exact amount of time and then giving value to a state based off the assumption that your fights will always and only last that set amount of time. As oftemn as that haste would give you 30 extra rage it will also give you 0 extra rage.

So you're telling me that you have no idea about how long your going to be in one encounter from the next? I'm not saying that I can control the time of an encounter, but, I have a rough idea of what to expect and I know if it's an encounter I want to get involved in. And no, haste will never generate 0 rage for you. If anything it speeds up the time after a miss so that you can start generating rage again. RPS is practical, however, it's not applicable to warrior pvp, imo. You don't generate 7.9 rage ever second. You generate 17.3 rage every 2.7 and if you can get that rage at 2.4 instead, you could have an edge over your opponent.



I'm not saying this is going completely turn the class around and make us OP. I my simply saying that I think haste plays to the stengths of warriors in their current state.

 

[Rivfader]

So you're telling me that you have no idea about how long your going to be in one encounter from the next? I'm not saying that I can control the time of an encounter, but, I have a rough idea of what to expect and I know if it's an encounter I want to get involved in. And no, haste will never generate 0 rage for you. If anything it speeds up the time after a miss so that you can start generating rage again. RPS is practical, however, it's not applicable to warrior pvp, imo. You don't generate 7.9 rage ever second. You generate 17.3 rage every 2.7 and if you can get that rage at 2.4 instead, you could have an edge over your opponent.



I'm not saying this is going completely turn the class around and make us OP. I my simply saying that I think haste plays to the stengths of warriors in their current state.

I say that it is stupid to not expect outside intervention when there are 9 other people on you're opponent's team, at least one of whom is probably interested in helping your opponent. You speak of the fluidity of PvP and yet try to claim that you have a good idea of how long each encounter will last. There are simply too many outside variables.

 

[fochixi]

I say that it is stupid to not expect outside intervention when there are 9 other people on you're opponent's team, at least one of whom is probably interested in helping your opponent. You speak of the fluidity of PvP and yet try to claim that you have a good idea of how long each encounter will last. There are simply too many outside variables.

Well I don't view a big battle as one big encounter. I view as several smaller ones. in terms of where I can apply my cc by snaring opposition and bringing my burst on targets that I know it will be effective.

 

[Rivfader]

The way that I see encounters is the amount of time you are in combat without time to eat/heal to full and regroup with your team. Those periods often last far longer than a few seconds.



edit: Think of it this way, haste may net you significantly more rage in a short window, but if you can't kill your opponent and reset the fight to give yourself another short window of opportunity then they get to reset the fight. Otherwise you are in a drawn-out fight where outside intervention is likely rendering your entire justification for calculating haste's value as anything other than RPS invalid.

 

[Ladolce]

Rivfader reitterated my point. thanks.

 

[Rivfader]

No the idea was completely my own, you had no influence whatsoever

 

[Ladolce]

I'm talking about how RPS is the only viable way to measure an increase in rage generation, not you two guys' little discussion about what dictates an encounter lmao.

 

[Rivfader]

I knew what you were refering to, sarcasm ftw.

 

[Ladolce]

Sneaky man!