The Future Potential of F2P In-game Comms

[Kincaide]

I don't think the idea of dividing the community is a good one. It's small enough as it is, especially on realms that are not AP. Even other popular realms like BWL and MG suffer from having no one on at certain times of day.

True but wouldn't you imagine that a server that is small enough as to only have one community, would just use the default server-wide channel as their only channel?

Of course they might also be inspired to move to one big server, knowing that doing so would still let them have their own identity through a custom channel, but the number of people they could arena or wargame with would be huge. -That- more than anything would solve the problem of "no one on at certain times of day".

 

[Klinda]

5) If it were possible to allow individuals to make and manage their own channels, then perhaps an option would be possible to list all the channels on a server and who owns them. And also an option for the channel owner to have their channel listed or unlisted.

That sounds really nice on paper, but do you think that will be overall beneficial for the f2p community? As someone already stated, realms that are not AP are very small. even with the pre-expansion already out. I'm not saying it couldn't work, but I think that this idea would be better suited for a VERY large community like AP which is the only mega community we have (US). I think that this will simply divide communities further which I don't think is really necessary considering the small numbers that most realms have at the moment.

 

[Wizkidone]

That sounds really nice on paper, but do you think that will be overall beneficial for the f2p community? As someone already stated, realms that are not AP are very small. even with the pre-expansion already out. I'm not saying it couldn't work, but I think that this idea would be better suited for a VERY large community like AP which is the only mega community we have (US). I think that this will simply divide communities further which I don't think is really necessary considering the small numbers that most realms have at the moment.

You all are making kincaide repeat a lot, not sure if you just aren't reading all the posts. The idea is that everyone moves back to a mega community, while maintaining their old community through their own channel, if they wish. This creates a larger community for war game bgs, arena, etc.

 

[Kincaide]

That sounds really nice on paper, but do you think that will be overall beneficial for the f2p community? As someone already stated, realms that are not AP are very small. even with the pre-expansion already out. I'm not saying it couldn't work, but I think that this idea would be better suited for a VERY large community like AP which is the only mega community we have (US). I think that this will simply divide communities further which I don't think is really necessary considering the small numbers that most realms have at the moment.

I had written a long response but I deleted it because I thought of a better way to put it.

Your concern, and several people's concern, is division of the community. I would submit to you that the TI F2P community is -already- horribly and irreversibly divided: we're divided by server. That's horrible because it means to change groups, we have to completely reroll, re-gear, and then just hope the new group turns out to be, and remain, what we want.

If instead we were all playing on one server, and had the exact same divisions that we already have now but those divisions were by chat channel rather than by an entire server, then changing groups, merging groups, finding more people you want to be with, would be FAR easier than it is now. And we'd never have to re-roll and re-gear our characters on another server.

So if you or anyone else is TRULY interested in eliminating the elements that truly divide the community, and that make it impossible to control our groups and maintain the identity we want them to have, then you would be supporting this idea with rousing cheers.

But doing so would require getting out of the habit of thinking of server-as-group and start imagining the possibility of channel-as-group. That's all I'm asking.

 

[Brov]

Applications for my channel start tomorrow, if you'd like to partake in an interview over skype for an increased chance of acceptance, please PM me.

 

[Sundusk]

Applications for my channel start tomorrow, if you'd like to partake in an interview over skype for an increased chance of acceptance, please PM me.

Take me?

 

[SallyG]

True but wouldn't you imagine that a server that is small enough as to only have one community, would just use the default server-wide channel as their only channel?

Of course they might also be inspired to move to one big server, knowing that doing so would still let them have their own identity through a custom channel, but the number of people they could arena or wargame with would be huge. -That- more than anything would solve the problem of "no one on at certain times of day".

You all are making kincaide repeat a lot, not sure if you just aren't reading all the posts. The idea is that everyone moves back to a mega community, while maintaining their old community through their own channel, if they wish. This creates a larger community for war game bgs, arena, etc.

That's because nobody is really reading what the other party is saying.

If I wanted to be on AP, I would be. I can already create conversations on B.net tag. I can get on a voice chat with people.

I already recognize being on a larger server would allow for a greater pool for wargames, BGs, etc.

So tell me how, an addon which will enable things I can already do, will make me go back to a server I don't want to be on? Oh "because you can have your own channel identity?" Please...

Everyone who is worried about dividing small communities is basically telling you the same thing. They have no intention of rerolling.

 

[Srs]

BWL—lightyears ahead of the curve.

 

[Kincaide]

So tell me how, an addon which will enable things I can already do, will make me go back to a server I don't want to be on? Oh "because you can have your own channel identity?" Please...

For a lot of people--maybe not yourself, but many--they started on AP and had to leave to another server because A) there was only one chat and it became polluted with newcomers with bad attitudes or simply took on a tenor that they no longer felt comfortable with, and B) they were powerless to do anything about it other than to shut off chat completely, thus cutting themselves off from the people that they -did- want to communicate with, or take themselves and those people and start all over again on another server.

The ability to have multiple channels on the F2P addon is a very new development, and (as I said) could be implemented with much more robustness with new code. But the habit of splitting off into different servers, and self-identifying with a server rather than a group of people, far predates even the most basic ability to split F2P chat. In short, I expect that MANY of us, myself included, would have taken the option of setting up guild-like channels rather than abandoning our hard work on our characters to reroll, if that option had been open to us at that time.

You state that you don't want to be on Aerie Peak, but you don't state your reasons why. I don't want to speculate about your own personal reasons unless you choose to share them, but for anyone else in the same position, where they don't want to be on Aerie Peak (or any other megaserver for that matter) because of all the chaos that a megaserver represents, then they shouldn't overlook how having these options removes those complaints. Saying that one doesn't want to be on Aerie Peak the way it is now, is not relevant. Heck, I don't want to be on Aerie Peak the way it is now, and I miss the original Kincaide terribly. But to say that one doesn't want to be on Aerie Peak in a better future, simply because of what Aerie Peak is now, seems to me to be short-sighted. If, as I said, the problems people have with Aerie Peak are based on the unavoidable elements that are there now, and the new paradigm allows you to avoid those elements, then what would the problem be at that point?

Also, if you have no intention of rerolling that's fine, but please don't speak for anyone else in that regard. I have three BIS characters on Vashj and three near-BIS characters on Misha, and only two BIS characters on AP, so I would have as much to lose in this new idea as anyone. But the idea of having huge world PVP events, constant arenas running, wargames whenever we wanted them, and dozens more like-minded people all on one server from whom we could pick the people with whom we identified the most, would for me make any discomfort in moving back well worth it. It may not be for you, and that's fine. But each person's going to have their own opinion on that, so let them speak it.

 

[SallyG]

But each person's going to have their own opinion on that, so let them speak it.

Pretty sure they are. You are just so enamored by the idea that you aren't listening

 

[Kincaide]

Pretty sure they are. You are just so enamored by the idea that you aren't listening

The only thing people have said so far is that having the option of multiple chat channels will be detrimental to smaller servers. You repeated the same. But I already addressed that by saying that the option of multiple chat channels already exists now, and to my knowledge not one smaller server has had their population devastated by that ability. I have yet to see anyone present a counter to that counter. And I have only heard you individually state that you would not reroll. And you didn't give your reasons for that.

 

[Pooh]

You can make a custom channel and change the settings on F2paddon from channel name "f2ptwink" to "new channel name" I've tested this and it worked. Maybe I'll start a whole new f2p channel and invite those who are not douche bags keep it a secret from others, maybe even allow newcomers if they aren't douches like the rest and possibly assign about 5 moderators who are always on...... who knows...... just an option.....

 

[Rollop]

I suppose it's something the "non-elitist" players would have to set up. They could potentially shuttle the assholes into their own channel and set up another one for newcomers. The argument from the AP players seems to be that they'd rather not give the elitists the tools to not play with them? Although they're already not playing with them, and the argument from other players seems to boil down to not wanting to give AP another chance. It doesnt sound like anybody is willing to try on either side of the fence, which is too bad really. It could be something really great, if people were open to it.

 

[yasueh]

The reason people are being told to use wowhead or TI to get their information, is because if they'd just make the minimal effort to do so, then they'd learn far more about the game than even the most helpful and tolerant player in channel could pass on to them.

The players on AP are more than likely doing something besides just sitting in channel in order to answer the questions of every single newbie that comes along. They are not there to babysit you towards a BiS twink (essentially looking up info on TI or wowhead for you). They have been around long enough to have become thoroughly sick of seeing people asking the same dumb questions day in, day out, usually along the lines of 'what class is best', or 'where do I get item x'. We see enough players who never make the effort to learn for themselves that we try and nip this in the bud before they're asking where to get every single item of gear for every supposedly OP class they've rolled, instead of making use of the resources made available to them (such as all the class guides here on TI).

That's not elitist, it's having some minimum standards of behaviour, so that people don't end up being a burden on everyone else (literally). Experience has shown that the kind of people who won't make the effort to learn for themselves, are equally draining when it comes to pretty much every other kind of interaction they have with people, and that takes away from what we have to give to those who will meet us halfway.

If you show that you aren't the kind of player who expects to be carried, then you're more than welcome on AP. That's not a matter of elitism about how experienced or knowledgeable you are, it's down to your attitude and motivation to improve yourself.

Maybe if you ask 'where do I find a guide for <class>", or 'how do I use wowhead' people would be more helpful, because you're showing them that you're willing to make some of the effort with your own learning.

 

[SallyG]

The only thing people have said so far is that having the option of multiple chat channels will be detrimental to smaller servers. You repeated the same..

What? No I didn't...

Let me help you...

That's because nobody is really reading what the other party is saying.

If I wanted to be on AP, I would be. I can already create conversations on B.net tag. I can get on a voice chat with people.

I already recognize being on a larger server would allow for a greater pool for wargames, BGs, etc.

So tell me how, an addon which will enable things I can already do, will make me go back to a server I don't want to be on? Oh "because you can have your own channel identity?" Please...

Everyone who is worried about dividing small communities is basically telling you the same thing. They have no intention of rerolling.

Hard to carry on any discussion with someone who is responding to stuff that was never said.

You are just so enamored by the idea that you aren't listening

 

[Activate]

/thread

 

[Kincaide]

Hard to carry on any discussion with someone who is responding to stuff that was never said.

Hard to carry on a discussion with someone who is being deliberately obtuse. I said you repeated what they said, I didn't say you asserted it yourself; you very clearly said "Everyone who is worried about dividing small communities is basically telling you the same thing." This isn't about what you did or didn't personally assert, it's about the assertion itself. Several people have said that they are worried that such a mechanism would divide small communities, and I have provided three arguments against that assertion:

1) A community small enough to not need custom channels would simply not use custom channels;
2) We already have the ability to make different channels, and it hasn't divided any small communities so far; and
3) In the right paradigm, namely having everyone on one server with channel-based subdivisions, these tools would allow for larger, more robust, and more flexible communities, not smaller.

The problem here isn't that I'm not listening to you. The problem is that I have listened and I have responded, several times, but you're not listening to me. The problem is that you're getting hung up on trying to debunk the overall idea by trying to pick faults with little nuances of what I said (which I staved off anyway) rather than listening to the actual argument being made. I have asked several times for counters to the points I have yet again here made, and I have asked several times for an explanation of the blanket statement "I'm not interested in moving back to AP" (although I recognize you are under no obligation to give me an answer to that, but not supporting it with some reasoning makes it a functionless opinion in this discussion) and I'm still waiting for someone to engage the ideas with actual discourse, but all I'm getting is la la la la, you aren't listening. Well I am listening: start actually talking.

 

[Wizkidone]

Hard to carry on a discussion with someone who is being deliberately obtuse. I said you repeated what they said, I didn't say you asserted it yourself; you very clearly said "Everyone who is worried about dividing small communities is basically telling you the same thing." This isn't about what you did or didn't personally assert, it's about the assertion itself. Several people have said that they are worried that such a mechanism would divide small communities, and I have provided three arguments against that assertion:

1) A community small enough to not need custom channels would simply not use custom channels;
2) We already have the ability to make different channels, and it hasn't divided any small communities so far; and
3) In the right paradigm, namely having everyone on one server with channel-based subdivisions, these tools would allow for larger, more robust, and more flexible communities, not smaller.

The problem here isn't that I'm not listening to you. The problem is that I have listened and I have responded, several times, but you're not listening to me. The problem is that you're getting hung up on trying to debunk the overall idea by trying to pick faults with little nuances of what I said (which I staved off anyway) rather than listening to the actual argument being made. I have asked several times for counters to the points I have yet again here made, and I have asked several times for an explanation of the blanket statement "I'm not interested in moving back to AP" (although I recognize you are under no obligation to give me an answer to that, but not supporting it with some reasoning makes it a functionless opinion in this discussion) and I'm still waiting for someone to engage the ideas with actual discourse, but all I'm getting is la la la la, you aren't listening. Well I am listening: start actually talking.

You've made your point and you seem like a perfectly logical person, which is nice. Anyone who is similar will probably agree with you. Not much you can do beyond that except for starting the movement yourself and lead by example.

 

[Kincaide]

You've made your point and you seem like a perfectly logical person, which is nice. Anyone who is similar will probably agree with you. Not much you can do beyond that except for starting the movement yourself and lead by example.

Right, very good point. Well it all starts with the addon, so I guess I'll talk to [MENTION=7838]Yasueh[/MENTION] about what he has planned, and then talk to the leaders of various groups that are currently spread out across servers and see what they think.

 

[The Saint]

I think we're still thinking within the paradigm we're already used to. People are looking at this mostly in terms of how it would affect their current structure, rather than seriously considering an entirely different structure.

To wit: What if ALL the TI F2P twinks, instead of being spread over multiple servers, each with their own identity, we were ALL on the same server, with our identities defined by our sub-group rather than our server? The effective units would be the same, in that each current "group" would still have their own group, however, changing to a different group would simply involve having to leave one channel and join another, rather than having to reroll on a different server. And just as importantly, getting games between those groups, or finding people to arena with, etc etc etc would be so much simpler as we would all be on the same physical server. Yet we would still be able to identify with a particular group within that server.

It has all the advantages of how we currently divide up into servers for identity and community purposes, but it would make activities or transfers between groups so much easier.

it doesn't make sense. Firstly, not everyone wants to play on AP. This is where this is heading. Secondly, if changing channels is so easy what is the point? The people who you ( or whoever) are trying to avoid can just follow you. Get in a group and using party chat not only sound easier but more effective. Thirdly, you'll break up the community into sub community's that will be at each others throats ( I've seen this when p2ps tried all playing on one sever).

let me give you one more piece of advice, and please remember that I'm unbiased because I don't play on ap.... You've again taken it that this is what the community wants/needs/should do, without asking said community. You need to stop and ask the people this effects before you put it in motion.