Shift the brackets to x5 and x0
- Thread starter Kirise
- Start date
SpazzGuy
Legend
That's quite a can of worms to open there, cirise. Just food for thought, for the 49's that I love so much, I wouldnt want it to go to level 50 for 2 reasons:
1) 5% stat bonus for wearing the ''correct'' armor type would actually decrease the amount of choice we have. As a warrior I like tinkering with expertise and haste, enough that sometimes I like wearing the ''incorrect'' armor type. As a shaman, I like to maximize similarly bizzarre stats and being able to juggle around in order to cap hit. I like options, it lets me do things that others wont or haven't done. A stat bonus gives an easy answer of ''more dps!!'' and takes away a creative complexity of choice.
2) Engineering
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=56463
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=56460
If we were to get these changes, as the bracket stands now, our problem of burst would only get worse while our more interesting options becomes more marginalized.
1) 5% stat bonus for wearing the ''correct'' armor type would actually decrease the amount of choice we have. As a warrior I like tinkering with expertise and haste, enough that sometimes I like wearing the ''incorrect'' armor type. As a shaman, I like to maximize similarly bizzarre stats and being able to juggle around in order to cap hit. I like options, it lets me do things that others wont or haven't done. A stat bonus gives an easy answer of ''more dps!!'' and takes away a creative complexity of choice.
2) Engineering
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=56463
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=56460
If we were to get these changes, as the bracket stands now, our problem of burst would only get worse while our more interesting options becomes more marginalized.
1everlasting1
Legend
@Karmaz
Uhm... 95%? really? link the gear choice on that twink, i've never seen that. Anyhow the highest our giulds ever had was 67% and i played at about 37% which is where just about every well geared lvl 85 pvps at... 37% reduction.
I also played long before resil was even considered for 10s just on haste and stam, nothing else. So whatever with the 95% exaggerations, go on.
My "diatribe" as Bwappo put it, is aimed at any existing twinker who seeks to nerf ANY OTHER twink bracket or class that they cant beat or deal with. That is exactly the sort of QQ that got all the leg enchants pulled, many of the BC and vanilla enchants re-classed to upper lvls, much of the gear removed from game, and for quit some time, got ALL us twinks stuck in the broom closet with NO bg pops. Remember that? the day xp off bg was created to "support twinks" but instead eliminated ques for months in EVERY bracket? You guys dont remember that?
Simple case of "divided we fall" you decide not to like a particular bracket and shrug your shoulders at a new bracket shift that eliminates a class of twink? your community gets smaller, those twinks are no longer their to support YOU when your bracket is threatened. I never really twinked 19 but i was sure mad when your enchants and leg armor got nerfed and nat pagal's boots and so on. Fact is you guys EARNED that gear and paid for it back when gold meant something. and it was unfairly nerfed out from under you. I supported upper brackets when they were under attack. You should too, in the case of lower.
You think im negative? reread the posts, its only negative toward lvl 10 haters and bullies, if you are not a twink bully or a hater, then there is nothing to offend in my posts. wake up people. don't eat your own.
Again i say "BE HAPPY" with your brackets.
At this point iv'e said my piece, im not sure rehashing it will bring more clarity, so take it or leave it. negative or not.
Uhm... 95%? really? link the gear choice on that twink, i've never seen that. Anyhow the highest our giulds ever had was 67% and i played at about 37% which is where just about every well geared lvl 85 pvps at... 37% reduction.
I also played long before resil was even considered for 10s just on haste and stam, nothing else. So whatever with the 95% exaggerations, go on.
My "diatribe" as Bwappo put it, is aimed at any existing twinker who seeks to nerf ANY OTHER twink bracket or class that they cant beat or deal with. That is exactly the sort of QQ that got all the leg enchants pulled, many of the BC and vanilla enchants re-classed to upper lvls, much of the gear removed from game, and for quit some time, got ALL us twinks stuck in the broom closet with NO bg pops. Remember that? the day xp off bg was created to "support twinks" but instead eliminated ques for months in EVERY bracket? You guys dont remember that?
Simple case of "divided we fall" you decide not to like a particular bracket and shrug your shoulders at a new bracket shift that eliminates a class of twink? your community gets smaller, those twinks are no longer their to support YOU when your bracket is threatened. I never really twinked 19 but i was sure mad when your enchants and leg armor got nerfed and nat pagal's boots and so on. Fact is you guys EARNED that gear and paid for it back when gold meant something. and it was unfairly nerfed out from under you. I supported upper brackets when they were under attack. You should too, in the case of lower.
You think im negative? reread the posts, its only negative toward lvl 10 haters and bullies, if you are not a twink bully or a hater, then there is nothing to offend in my posts. wake up people. don't eat your own.
Again i say "BE HAPPY" with your brackets.
At this point iv'e said my piece, im not sure rehashing it will bring more clarity, so take it or leave it. negative or not.
Tinkerton
Legend
I find it a bit odd you don't 'get' the stomp from above as you specifically call certain features from 'above' as being attractive.
For example, in 36-40 a 40 will have an Epic Mount, at certain x5 people get access to higher Gathering Professions.
Also, Satchels become available at x5, and post-Shattering much BoP gear has x0 and x5 as the new required level (on top of my head e.g. RFK gear often has 30 and Scholo 40).
This means that people basically will HAVE to level to the new top-end of the bracket, or be more gimped than they currently might be. And forcing people to level - twinking site....doesn't really comply, imo. The less said about killing-off 10's the better, I guess (to which btw I don't agree at all - in fact, they should never have seperated Locked 10's from Locked 19's imo).
Also, I'm still very fuzzy on how you exactly expect how forcing people to level will make brackets more attractive.
If people wanted to grind out e.g. 'new' Scholo gear and ride on Epic mounts, they could already play 40-44. If you want access to 300 Gathering you can already play 25-29 etc.
A better solution for e.g. percieved issues with GF gear that allows for TBC chants (tbh a bit over-stretched imo, we're not talking 10-14 here were a few points can have a real impact, and Mongoose is about 'it') would be a solution to many WoW's woes:
bring back Orange/Red Quests by dropping the minimum level requirement of non-Instance Quests by 5-6 levels.
Not only would this allow for a harder game setting than 'Piss Easy' and make Quest rewards matter more and hence Heirlooms less, for XP_Off this would allow for those TBC chants in 25-29 again and a plethora of 'Stonetalon Honor gear' including Head gear for 20 Hordies and less gear imbalance between the Factions in general.
For example, in 36-40 a 40 will have an Epic Mount, at certain x5 people get access to higher Gathering Professions.
Also, Satchels become available at x5, and post-Shattering much BoP gear has x0 and x5 as the new required level (on top of my head e.g. RFK gear often has 30 and Scholo 40).
This means that people basically will HAVE to level to the new top-end of the bracket, or be more gimped than they currently might be. And forcing people to level - twinking site....doesn't really comply, imo. The less said about killing-off 10's the better, I guess (to which btw I don't agree at all - in fact, they should never have seperated Locked 10's from Locked 19's imo).
Also, I'm still very fuzzy on how you exactly expect how forcing people to level will make brackets more attractive.
If people wanted to grind out e.g. 'new' Scholo gear and ride on Epic mounts, they could already play 40-44. If you want access to 300 Gathering you can already play 25-29 etc.
A better solution for e.g. percieved issues with GF gear that allows for TBC chants (tbh a bit over-stretched imo, we're not talking 10-14 here were a few points can have a real impact, and Mongoose is about 'it') would be a solution to many WoW's woes:
bring back Orange/Red Quests by dropping the minimum level requirement of non-Instance Quests by 5-6 levels.
Not only would this allow for a harder game setting than 'Piss Easy' and make Quest rewards matter more and hence Heirlooms less, for XP_Off this would allow for those TBC chants in 25-29 again and a plethora of 'Stonetalon Honor gear' including Head gear for 20 Hordies and less gear imbalance between the Factions in general.
OP
OP
Kirise
OG
@Spazzguy: The Fel Iron Bomb already averages 550 damage per blast in 49s, so the 825 from cobalt frag bomb isn't a huge jump. The explosive decoy's mean 1750 blast would indeed create an issue, even somewhat mitigated by the stamina gained from the Goblin Rocket Launcher and Gnomish Poultryizer. As for the 5% bonus, it's nice, but even a single piece of engineering gear can eclipse the 15-20 points in a base stat gained from the 5% bonus. ...Actually, the engineering items would by far do much more to reduce the creative complexity of choice, as they're easily BiS for the head, belt, feet, and trinkets for all classes.
@Tinkerton: Other than the serious issue with 20s getting mounts while the rest of the bracket doesn't, I don't see a "stomp" on any bracket by gaining the goodies at the top of the bracket. All the x9 XP-off brackets play at the top of the bracket anyway, so no stomp there. Only the 10-14 bracket would see somewhat of a shift to a more even dispersion between the poles of the bracket, and that's more of a (admittedly significant) cultural issue instead of a technical issue. For XP-on, the vast majority of players don't level professions anywhere near their cap. Those that do, twinker up everything else anyway. Those few players already leverage current gear disparities to go stomping. The same goes for Satchel gear.
A bracket shift will attract more players by taking the edge off gearing issues in many brackets. Between grandfathered gear, capped accounts, and some rebalancing of class abilities, a bracket shift would nudge twinking in a more positive direction. Is that worth the work of essentially regearing everyone's twinks? That's up for debate. I'm all for it, as I think all of the brackets will play better. Several solid counterarguments appear in the responses.
Now, your suggestion for bringing back orange and red quests really intrigues me. At first I wanted to dismiss it, as it could confuse newer players. But WoW already has a mechanic where you see a white exclamation point over questgivers who will soon offer you quests after you attain another level or two. So heck yeah, open up orange and red quests again, and make them obtainable from the "white question mark givers" as a warning. It will give casual players a sense of increasing power (which is exactly what Blizz wanted) as players level up and can handle the quests as they turn yellow, while tackling some grandfathering issues in the lower and midbrackets. It might create some other gear disparities depending on available quests, but that's no different than how things are now.
I think it's a great idea.
@Tinkerton: Other than the serious issue with 20s getting mounts while the rest of the bracket doesn't, I don't see a "stomp" on any bracket by gaining the goodies at the top of the bracket. All the x9 XP-off brackets play at the top of the bracket anyway, so no stomp there. Only the 10-14 bracket would see somewhat of a shift to a more even dispersion between the poles of the bracket, and that's more of a (admittedly significant) cultural issue instead of a technical issue. For XP-on, the vast majority of players don't level professions anywhere near their cap. Those that do, twinker up everything else anyway. Those few players already leverage current gear disparities to go stomping. The same goes for Satchel gear.
A bracket shift will attract more players by taking the edge off gearing issues in many brackets. Between grandfathered gear, capped accounts, and some rebalancing of class abilities, a bracket shift would nudge twinking in a more positive direction. Is that worth the work of essentially regearing everyone's twinks? That's up for debate. I'm all for it, as I think all of the brackets will play better. Several solid counterarguments appear in the responses.
Now, your suggestion for bringing back orange and red quests really intrigues me. At first I wanted to dismiss it, as it could confuse newer players. But WoW already has a mechanic where you see a white exclamation point over questgivers who will soon offer you quests after you attain another level or two. So heck yeah, open up orange and red quests again, and make them obtainable from the "white question mark givers" as a warning. It will give casual players a sense of increasing power (which is exactly what Blizz wanted) as players level up and can handle the quests as they turn yellow, while tackling some grandfathering issues in the lower and midbrackets. It might create some other gear disparities depending on available quests, but that's no different than how things are now.
I think it's a great idea.
Tinkerton
Legend
Good to hear you like the idea of returning Orange/Red Quests to the game, as it is imnsho an idea that might actually get some momentum as it turns out that the issue of too easy levelling/no optional challenges is something that has some traction in the blogosphere, and should be easy enough for Blizz to implement.
It would also tackle the issue of gear in a way that at worst would mean people have to do some Quests ie no RNG grinding (as would be the case with a bracket shift) and in a more positive light would add extra content for people without having to level their beloved toons - at little, if any serious, extra cost for Blizz.
As a technical aside, it would be great if someone knew from own experience at which level the Krom'gar Headgear currently becomes available. The Quest that sets the whole chain off is currently available at 24 ( http://www.wowhead.com/quest=28532 ), but unlike most Vanilla chains, Cata chains do have changes in minimum level as they progress and WoWhead can be inaccurate in these things. Ideally, it wouldn't be (currently) 26, as while a 5 level 'shift' doesn't seem to present any significant issues (e.g. 19 Horde gets a +1 bonus on leather Legs compared to Fangs legs, 29 Ally get a two-hander with slightly higher DPS than the Desolace Axe), a six level shift would have wonkier results.
Btw, considering MoP will jumble the Talents etc. around once more, a bracket shift would have to be seen in light of those abilities as far as skills etc. would go - the current set of skills etc. will change by then anyway.
It would also tackle the issue of gear in a way that at worst would mean people have to do some Quests ie no RNG grinding (as would be the case with a bracket shift) and in a more positive light would add extra content for people without having to level their beloved toons - at little, if any serious, extra cost for Blizz.
As a technical aside, it would be great if someone knew from own experience at which level the Krom'gar Headgear currently becomes available. The Quest that sets the whole chain off is currently available at 24 ( http://www.wowhead.com/quest=28532 ), but unlike most Vanilla chains, Cata chains do have changes in minimum level as they progress and WoWhead can be inaccurate in these things. Ideally, it wouldn't be (currently) 26, as while a 5 level 'shift' doesn't seem to present any significant issues (e.g. 19 Horde gets a +1 bonus on leather Legs compared to Fangs legs, 29 Ally get a two-hander with slightly higher DPS than the Desolace Axe), a six level shift would have wonkier results.
Btw, considering MoP will jumble the Talents etc. around once more, a bracket shift would have to be seen in light of those abilities as far as skills etc. would go - the current set of skills etc. will change by then anyway.