Shift the brackets to x5 and x0

I notice you "schooled us" but didnt answer the question, have you played a 10?

Also, yes, gear does get better, but from 11-15 the gear does not improve so much as to come close to offsetting the stats lost when lvling from 10 to 11. I just did a chardev, leaving out my chest, since its no longer available and cant be chardev'd, from 10-11 my character loses 17% dodge chance, and 22% crit chance in the same gear set. Now, do me a favor, find me a lvl 19 that is fully twinked that has 90% dodge and 63% crit chance(dodge gear), or, 76% dodge and 82% crit chance(dps gear) depending on what gearset Im in. you wont find anything close. Theres a reason why people play 10s, its because the stat gains are alot. Dont preach that we can gain new gear from lvling, when theres no chance of that new gear getting us anywhere near the stats we lose from lvling.
 
lololol as if changing the brackets would revive 60's, 64's was never what was killing the bracket. It was a combination of irrational elitism (ok not such a big deal but still annoying and I do think it hurt it) and people migrating to the (superior) 70's bracket. One thing I will never miss is the raging of 60's in Naxx gear(with wotlk chants....hypocrites) rageing at 60's (or 64's) with BC gear and lk gems.
 
Making 'Expansion caps' single-level brackets open to all (XP-On, 'hard Locked' and 'soft Locked' ) is something I've always debated for on the official Fora, and I still wouldn't take issue with '60', '70', '80' and now '20' plus later '85' brackets.



(Gear limitations as Yasueh suggested would be nice but I don't see Blizz ever putting that amount of work into things. It would also gimp the 60 bracket severely to basicaly only allow for Raid gear, I'd rather see character or ilevel-requirements on WotLK gems and perhaps on some Engineering toys)



However, all other monkeying with the brackets I'd be against, as the way many minimum levels on current gear, Satchel Loot and abilities works it would mean that pretty much a x5 or x0 would stomp everything below it, even more if we count in Mounts and Armor conversions.



How and why exactly the new brackets would have fewer issues getting 'pops' than the current brackets is - except for the '60' , '70' and '80' bracket - a bit beyond me and requires extra justifications.



Because let's be honest: getting more 'pops' is about the only reason why monkeying about with brackets would be a good thing, people can already level to a new bracket if they wanted to and forcing them to do so just for kicks is pretty...<insert stream of expletives here>.



This leaves alone there are plenty of other things I would want to change about WoW .
 
In my opinion we need to bring back the 9s. They were the most fun I've ever had in this game. I've grown fond of my 10, but haven't had much play time on it. 29, 39, 49s have always been the best games pre-major-nerfbat with exp on in bgs.
 
Another good batch of responses!



@Ihateurmom: I completely missed that -- good call.



@Dodgeyou: My 10's been in my sig for a couple of months. Credit to you for doing the chardev. Yes, you do lose some of your secondary stats (and I'm surprised you only lose 17% dodge -- I expected that to be 22% as well), but the stat loss is not the point. Rather, the point is you stay competitive against the high end of the bracket. If ganking untwinked 19s and showing off high secondary stats is your goal, then bracket shifts don't affect you at all. You can stay 10 and retain both of those features, and make a fresh 11. But let's be honest, you could mop the floor with 19s even if you went to 11. Add two stendel's rings to that 11 chardev and see how you feel, as that should bring you back within striking distance of the crit you had before.



@Wafflecakes: The 60s bracket is a strange case, as that bracket really wasn't a twink bracket like the others. To overgeneralize, it was more of a casual PvP bracket as part of the whole Vanilla experience, and the arrival of more serious twinkers from other brackets caused the consternation. Going back to 60 wouldn't reverse that, but it wouldn't need to. Having the options to use raid gear or TBC gear would still encourage the bracket to evolve.



@Tinkerton: I don't see how a bracket shift would cause a stomp from above for any bracket. I think you're spot on when you say that the only real reason to do a bracket shift is to get more pops, and i think the new equilibrium from the brackets would do exactly that. Right now, people avoid certain brackets precisely because stomps from below or above discourage participation. That said, you're right -- there are other changes in WoW I'd prioritize above bracket shifting.



@Pwnadin: Ain't that the truth. Losing the 29 and 39 brackets hurt this game. If we ever lost 49s, my game time would seriously drop.



I should write an article about the potential of the 10-14 bracket. While the community can get a little self-righteous at times (what twinker community doesn't?) I think people really dismiss the potential of the bracket. Consider that two years ago, we didn't have specs that automatically gave us baseline abilities, and we didn't have BoAs. As I understand it, 19s reached their prime the year before the no-XP patch. Today, the 10-14 bracket gets a fair number of abilities, and certainly more talents than 19s did in their prime, plus 10-14 gets access to the whole bracket! Rarely do you see anyone below 19 in the 15-19 bracket.



A lot of players like to rebuff the idea by saying, "Oh gee, a whole two buttons! Sounds...awful!" Besides the fact that there really are more than two buttons' worth of things to do, the narrow scope of abilities concentrates game focus on timing and coordination. In the XP-off games I experienced in the 10-14 bracket, I think players would have a lot of fun in there.
 
Im not about mopping up the ungeared, that was just an example and an added occasional bonus lol. I also said that a geared 10 is gonna beat a geared 11-15, so, why would any 10 want to lvl to have to regear to lesser stats. Lesser stats is lesser stats and thats the thing with 10s, insane stats.

BTW, nice druid, I like the haste%. now, after a Chardev of that toon, at lvl 11 u will drop from 91% haste, to 60%, at lvl 15, its a paltry 28%. You tell me, is that worth it?
 
Since there's still a 32% in haste difference between 11 and 15, it would indeed be worth it to me to stay at 11 (I think that's what you're asking), especially since my crit would only drop 2% from the gear that came available at 11. It's not as straightforward a choice as 10 vs. 14, which is what makes it more exciting! Sure, big crits and blindingly fast haste are awesome, but imagine playing in a bracket where you saw 11s, 12s, 14s, and 15s, all choosing different levels of secondary stats, talents, gear, all with a real chance at making a difference in the bracket. I think that would be a lot more fun than even what an XP-off 10-14 bracket could offer.



I'd be more concerned If Blizzard did move the bracket system to x5 and x0, and implemented the new expansion's talent system as is (new talent at 15, 30, 45, etc.) that might wreck the 11-15 bracket. It wouldn't affect the other brackets, since they already would play at the high end of the bracket. But the new talents are powerful, and I'd have a hard time saying no to...(checking the druid talent tree as an example)...gads, any of them.
 
If you see lvl 11 as being so benefical to your toon, then why havent you lvled it? Its because you know that its hands down a drop from what lvl 10 is and would only be viable if the brackets were shifted, causing 10s to no longer to be able to PvP. Then yes, a lvl 11 would be the way to go, but still, Dont tell us that being lvl 11-15 is going to be better numbers wise then being lvl 10, because its not. If it was true, we wouldnt have lvl 10 twinks, everyone would have lvled to the better lvl. Thats what twinking is about, and lvl 10s are the definition of it.

With your suggestion, all other brackets may see improvement, but, you kill the ultimate definition of a twink in the process.
 
I repeatedly have said that 11 is a drop from 10. And of course it would only be viable if the brackets shifted. That's the point of the bracket shift for all of the brackets -- to increase viability and get more pops. I don't get why you're so enamored with the number 10. We reach the intersection of the highest level that that still gets the highest secondary stat scaling in WoW at level 10. Good for us. But twinking is completely context dependent. If I made the ultimate level 7 twink, would you care? How about a level 33 twink? 1s and 5s could make an argument. For everyone else, "twinking" hinges completely on the borders of battleground brackets. A twink makes the most of everything at their disposal within a bracket. If a bracket shift would no longer coincide with your "ultimate definition" of twink (which apparently is all about secondary stats), then perhaps our definitions of twinking do not intersect.
 
I dont think you see my point, but, thats ok. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Regardless of all this we have discussed, what you suggest kills lvl 10s from pvp, and that is not ok with several of us as you can see through the posts that have been made.
 
I think you're right -- I'm missing your point. Let me reframe my statement as a question, then, for all 10s in this thread. What is it about being level 10 that you cherish, other than being at the lower end of the 10-14 bracket? I'm assuming if for some crazy reason Blizzard shifted the bracket to 8-12, you would still be 10, yes?



Maybe the maximum secondary stats really do mean that much to 10s. While it doesn't trip my trigger, I wouldn't presume to speak for any other 10s. What is it about being level 10 that you cherish?
 
People need to see this article for what it is, a naked attempt to remove (or at least further nerf) lvl 10s from BG play altogether and also re-establish the golden age of what spawned twinks in the early years (the ability to stare down from the TOP of any bracket and destroy everything in your path with little to no resistance).



Lvl 19s (probably the most populous twink community over time) behaved BADLY in the past and received much vitriol and a boatload of gear/enchant nerfs for their behavior. Though they have been tempered over the passed 2 years and behave somewhat more civilized nowadays, they are wishing for the days of ABSOLUTE dominance in years gone by and still stinging slightly from the pounding they received for a few short months, over a year ago, from scaled 10s in THEIR hallowed 19 kingdom. They have not forgotten this feeling of helplessness as a toon 9 lvls under them proceeded to frustrate every effort to survive and they subconsciously desire "cold served revenge". While at the same time getting new OP'ness at 20 along with mounts.



Well.... learn something from this you lvl 19 twinks.... it sortta sux to have your rear end repeatedly handed to you over and over and over again, so have a slight bit of compassion for the rest of the bracket below you and quit trying to eliminate the competition that you cant beat. L2play when met with equal or slightly superior force, instead of QQ bout lvl 10s and BE HAPPY with your existing bracket (one of the most active xp off BG ques in the game). U already sent us 10's off to the lower bracket so you can dominate again, just move on!



BTW even if you succeed at such a deceptive idea, idc because i started lvl 10s for WORLD pvp not bgs and i still WORLD pvp on my hordie twinks in Westfall, Duskwood and STV and roflstomp all day. The minute you leave the safety of your personally crafted BG bracket, i'll find you on my 10 and remind you that "U R not good", lol (unless u R a huntard) although thanks to your begged for resil nerf, u may have half a chance to win that fight.
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Well, take into consideration that I built this toon at the beginning of BC/possibly the end of Vanilla, been a while, hard to remember. BGs were still merged then. Do you realize what a recruiting tool a lvl 10 twink was back then for twinking? You take a toon that cant be melee hit, in the case of my twink, and drop him in a bg full of regular players, and they become godlike to them. Especially if the person playing the lvl 10 isnt a jerk to them. I spoke with MANY players over the span of time that I started my rogue, til Wrath hit and things hit the fan for twinking. I saw many of them later on in BGs as full blown twinks, or semi-twinks working on their gearsets. All it took was being friendly, and doing my best to win them games. While alotta 19s at the time farmed mid / GY camped and made twinking look bad. Alotta newbie players hated twinks back then, because of being 1 or 2 shot and being called scrubs. Whereas, They liked Dodgeyou, because I helped them to win, and understand twinking better. THAT is why I like 10s, because of what they are capable of compared to their higher lvl counterparts and what they can do for twinking in general. Yes, the reason to twink at 10 is obviously the secondary stats. But the reason I like it is because of how I can help improve the twinking community with a lvl 10. less then a month ago, I had 2 lvl 10s come up to me at Goldshire and start asking me about my gear. They had seen me there and had seen me duel 19s, and 20s, etc. They wanted to know more about twinking. Sure, and 19 twink can recruit newbies to twinking, but not as effectively as a 10 that can beat the crap outta 19s lol. Idk, maybe Im just weird in my mindset about it, but this is why I twink 10. Maybe that makes sense, maybe it doesnt.
 
<--- doesnt know how to add at image to his avatar, lol



back to the subject between dodgeyou and the OP, the reason dodge stated for twinking 10s are very true in my experience also. I have inducted countless twinks over the passed 3 years because of an original encounter with one of my lvl 10's. This has not been limited to lvl 10's joining the community either; many, many of the people i got interested in twinking by beating in a duel or seeing me in a BG (even the opposite faction would make lvl 1 alts on my server and talk to me), became twink community members and supporters when before they had hated twinks. Many of them went on to twink 19's and 70's and mid brackets. People i killed in Westfall have started entire lvl 10, Ally twink giulds in response (in a positve ecited manner, not revenge). The lvl 10 with a good attitude and SOME personal honor can really have a huge recruiting impact on the whole community.



I mentioned before that (19)twinks behaved badly in the old days. One of the ways in which i try to bring a little bit of honor to the image is that even when i beat a player in world pvp i have a fairly strict limit of 3 "corpse camps" maximum on a single player, then i emote or let them go along or even log and talk with them a bit, as long as they have not pulled some nasty trick during combat like bad emotes, or getting guards to help, or logging to 85s, or the like. You old crusty 19s and up might learn something from the 10s if you weren't so worried about banning them.



Even when the BG brackets got seperated to 14 and lvl 10 could NEVER get an xp off BG, we created good will with the reg BG teams by announcing that we were gonna hold the flag for the whole bg but promised a win in the last 2 minutes (as we hand off flag and log out). Some didn't get it and chat raged but mostly it went well. "Kissthecow" has a video on youtube of this exact practice, and we let that team of nooblets win. 10s can be a huge community booster if the "Old guard" realizes it and stops hating.



I would bet a dollar also, that Bwappo originally made a lvl 10 just because he got beat by one in BG or elsewhere and THAT is why lvl 10 stat scaling does not "trip his trigger". He built a 10 out of necessity not the fun. Just my hunch.



Again i say, stop worrying about the 10s, and reclaiming God-like status from the old days... Just BE HAPPY with your bracket.
 
It makes perfect sense, Dodgeyou. I actually got started in twinking for the same reasons -- to show up the farming bullies and stop them from dominating battlegrounds. I had no idea that 10s went back that far. Thank you for the history lesson, and the perspective that came with it.



@1everlasting1: I'm not sure if you're serious, but seeing as I never played 19s (and have played 10s), I think you brought more resentment to the conversation than 19s ever could. But then, maybe I'm stating the obvious, as your diatribe did not include any of the previous conversation as context. I mean, really? I put together an entire bracket shift idea for the front page of Twinkinfo just as a way to lash out at a particular bracket? ...Actually, when I put it like that, it does sound like something the forums would come up with, so I guess I can't blame you for thinking that. Anyway, I'm sorry your experience with 19s was so negative. That's the main reason I never got involved with that bracket. I'm just baffled that there aren't enough 10s to get their own bracket off the ground.



Maybe that's a hurdle the 10 bracket needs to overcome. Before, 10s were the anti-19. Now that 10s are in a separate bracket, 10s need a reason to get players excited again.
 
I originally built my 10 because I had seen another in a BG before and was amazed at what they were able to do. Of course, back then we could stack stats even higher, and alotta lvl 19 twinks didnt have a clue what to do with a lvl 10 with almost as much HP that they couldnt melee hit. Hunters werent so OP then, and so they had to send everything they had ranged after the lvl 10 that had their flag and was backed into a corner so nobody could hit him. I won alotta games that way, and made alotta friends, and enemies (the horde melee primarily) lol. But it was always nice too, to be midfield and have a horde 19 twink that had seen you around alot, wave and bow and go on their way outta respect. (Im thinking of a particular horde player at the moment, but its been so long their name escapes me. They were an active member on here at one time. Im wanting to say it was a belf priest.) Was also nice to see 19 rogue twinks run away from ya because they didnt understand what you were or how you worked, but knew you were gonna kill them while they swung away without making contact. The flag holding tho, that was epic. Its been several years since was able to do that, and I still lol thinking about how mad some of those horde players had to of been lol.

On another note, I prefer pugs. Always have, always will because of playing as a lvl 10. To go into a game late and be 0-2, and turn it around and give the newbies a win when what twinks there were on the team had already gave up and resorted to calling the newbies trash, that was the best. And it happened alot. It was also great to be able to do this, have those twinks talking trash to you while you carry the flag, only to have them eat crow at the end of the match because you had 3 flag carries in the 10 min you were there at the end of the game. 10s were alotta fun. still would be, if we could get games lol.
 
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