Rogue BIS OH & Enchants?

[Lufú]

I've read a few of you have said CB is better than AB as an offhand weapon, is that true in Classic?

Also have ready that Fiery Weapon is better than Crusader, i agree for consistant damage, but i'd of thought 100 strength would be too valuable as a proc to not go with?

Not looking for a debate or to be trolled, just genuinely interested and kind of looking for some help - so that when i make my rogue, i can get it right

 

[Strokes]

When fiery procs, it always does damage. When crusader procs, you're not gauranteed 15secs of uptime.

I don't remember the exact debate, but I'm pretty sure the consensus was that fiery is better. This was around 2008, though... could be wrong.

Fiery is 6ppm and crusader is 1ppm. Crusader needs to give you an extra 240 damage in 15seconds to break even with fiery.

No comment on the heal.

 

[Recurve]

Cruel Barb is better raw damage, but if you are hitting a caster, you will get better pushback results from Assassin's Blade.

Lifestealing should be a consideration for MH enchant. Same proc rate as Fiery, but the proc does 30 damage and 30 healing rather than just 40 damage. I'd take both over Crusader. For offhand enchant, I'd go with +15 Agility.

 

[Classclown]

CB does more damage. AB has a little extra agi and really not much of a difference in damage.

CB with a fiery enchant will benefit more from slice and dice than an AB with fiery.

This is why I have an AB OH with 15 agi and a CB OH with fiery.

 

[Penster]

Cruel Barb with 15 agility off hand is best for rogues, because Cruel Barb is slower than Assassin's Blade. Because you will be moving in and out of hitboxes, you will miss more hits of Assassin's Blade than a Cruel Barb, which would impact your dps output, albeit slightly. Assassin's Blade is great for the 4 agi worth of dodge, crit, and ap, but for raw damage and burst, Cruel Barb is better.

 

[ExudeCans]

CB with a fiery enchant will benefit more from slice and dice than an AB with fiery.

Proc rate scales with weapon speed. You will get the same amount of damage bonus from fiery over 1 minute (on average) on a slow or fast weapon. It makes no difference.

 

[Classclown]

Proc rate scales with weapon speed. You will get the same amount of damage bonus from fiery over 1 minute (on average) on a slow or fast weapon. It makes no difference.

The proc rate is the same, but notice I said slice and dice effects it. Slice and dice will have a bigger effect on CB than AB but will still have the 6 ppm. Therefore CB with fiery and slice and dice is better than AB with fiery and slice and dice

 

[ExudeCans]

The proc rate is the same, but notice I said slice and dice effects it. Slice and dice will have a bigger effect on CB than AB but will still have the 6 ppm. Therefore CB with fiery and slice and dice is better than AB with fiery and slice and dice

Nope, the benefit of fiery stays exactly the same, SnD or not. The proc rate is normalised. https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=13898/enchant-weapon-fiery-weapon

However, instant cast abilities like Sinister Strike and Hamstring will affect
https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/comments/gqxkek/fiery_weapon_enchant_stats_variable_chanceonhit/

 

[Classclown]

Nope, the benefit of fiery stays exactly the same, SnD or not. The proc rate is normalised. https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=13898/enchant-weapon-fiery-weapon

However, instant cast abilities like Sinister Strike and Hamstring will affect
https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/comments/gqxkek/fiery_weapon_enchant_stats_variable_chanceonhit/

I can't click the link, says server not found. Slice and Dice does not effect fiery? You are sure about that?

 

[ExudeCans]

I can't click the link, says server not found. Slice and Dice does not effect fiery? You are sure about that?

Wow head seems to be down. Slice and dice affects weapon speed. Weapon speed does not affect PPM. Instant cast spells do.

 

[iaccidentallytwink]

Offensively, the difference in stats is 0.35 DPS (CB) vs 1.04% crit (AB). In terms of pure stats, the 5 AP will basically never be worth it. The preference here is in attack speed. You should be running both, and swapping in combat.

Cruel Barb with 15 agility off hand is best for rogues, because Cruel Barb is slower than Assassin's Blade. Because you will be moving in and out of hitboxes, you will miss more hits of Assassin's Blade than a Cruel Barb, which would impact your dps output, albeit slightly. Assassin's Blade is great for the 4 agi worth of dodge, crit, and ap, but for raw damage and burst, Cruel Barb is better.

If you are weaving in and out with minimal uptime, this is correct (the CB being better due to speed part). If you're poking hard for pushback and able to stay on (you have someone slowing), AB is better. Assassin's Blade will do less DPS with equal time on target because +0.52% crit is worse than +0.98 damage, unless your normal swings are <204 (before mitigation and penalties, because they both apply equally).

Fiery is always better for pure damage. 15 Agility is never going to add more damage, regardless of time on target, than Fiery. It is only relevant when you are being poked by melee and need the dodge.

You will NOT miss more often with AB than CB in your offhand. Attack speed does NOT affect hit chance. You would MUCH RATHER miss an AB swing than a CB swing, since the miss chance is static but you lose out on FAR more damage missing a CB than an AB swing.

EDIT: Miscalculated AP, fixed numbers, outcome doesn't change.
EDIT 2: Miscalculated Agi (lol), fixed numbers, outcome does change when time on target is equal or better for CB!

 

[Penster]

Fiery is always better for pure damage. 15 Agility is never going to add more damage, regardless of time on target, than Fiery. It is only relevant when you are being poked by melee and need the dodge.

I forgot to mention why i thought agi was better, sorry. If we are talking solely doing damage to the efc (which you should ALWAYS be doing as a rogue) then definitely, fiery is better. I've tested this on my own rogue and nothing really comes close to fiery for bursting a target. Idk why i said agi was better OH, as you said its only good when facing against melee which you shouldn't ever be facing melee other than a defensive hunter/warrior wing clipping/hamstringing. Double fiery is definitely the best for damage.

 

[Yayo]

I like fiery mainhand SF and agility on cruel barb. Fiery doesn’t get the love it deserves

 

[Bestworld]

I like fiery mainhand SF and agility on cruel barb. Fiery doesn’t get the love it deserves

Fiery gets hella love unless meme.

 

[Classclown]

Offensively, the difference in stats is 0.35 DPS (CB) vs 1.04% crit (AB). In terms of pure stats, the 5 AP will basically never be worth it. The preference here is in attack speed. You should be running both, and swapping in combat.


If you are weaving in and out with minimal uptime, this is correct (the CB being better due to speed part). If you're poking hard for pushback and able to stay on (you have someone slowing), AB is better. Assassin's Blade will always do more DPS with equal time on target because +1.04% crit is (obviously) much better than +0.98 damage, unless your normal swings are <102 (before mitigation and penalties, because they both apply equally).

Fiery is always better for pure damage. 15 Agility is never going to add more damage, regardless of time on target, than Fiery. It is only relevant when you are being poked by melee and need the dodge.

You will NOT miss more often with AB than CB in your offhand. Attack speed does NOT affect hit chance. You would MUCH RATHER miss an AB swing than a CB swing, since the miss chance is static but you lose out on FAR more damage missing a CB than an AB swing.

EDIT: Miscalculated AP, fixed numbers, outcome doesn't change.

I agree with AB being better than CB. I did a calculation on what is better 2 AP vs 1 Agi (from a purely DPS standpoint) and 2 AP is better until you get about 60% crit rate. That being said, CB has 12 AP and AB has 7 AP. CB has 5 more AP than AB, but AB has 4 more agi. So if you think about what is better 4 agi or 5 AP, you can quickly do some calculations to show 4 AGI is better for DPS and defensively.

I can show my calculations if people want.

 

[Germinus]

-havent read- what i remember AB bis oh. Enchan depends on play style. 15 agi bis. Crusader bis. Crudader needs proc. Agi is flat. Crit damage. Fiery is bad. Life steal is budget crusader

 

[Bestworld]

-havent read- what i remember AB bis oh. Enchan depends on play style. 15 agi bis. Crusader bis. Crudader needs proc. Agi is flat. Crit damage. Fiery is bad. Life steal is budget crusader

Just gonna say this is hella wrong.

AB bis if you have perma uptime on target, which you don't. It's good for melee fights (more dodge), or for pushbacks (faster speed, more pokes) on casts, but how often do you engage in duels like that as a rogue? Optimally, you'd have AB for those occasions, CB for everything else and swap whenever needed.

Fiery is highest damage and burst.

Crusader is the same deal. All about uptime. You will almost never ever get the full value out of the proc, thus decreasing its value significantly.

Lifestealing is not a budget Crusader at all. They don't even serve the same purpose. Also, Lifestealing will always have full value, Crusader will not. That said, Fiery is still superior in terms of damage.

You're a rogue. You do hard pokes. You're not a warrior, you're not a hunter. Gotta play like a rogue and stop trying to be something you're not. Play your objectives and to your strengths.

 

[Cleatuss]

Just gonna say this is hella wrong.

AB bis if you have perma uptime on target, which you don't. It's good for melee fights (more dodge), or for pushbacks (faster speed, more pokes) on casts, but how often do you engage in duels like that as a rogue? Optimally, you'd have AB for those occasions, CB for everything else and swap whenever needed.

Fiery is highest damage and burst.

Crusader is the same deal. All about uptime. You will almost never ever get the full value out of the proc, thus decreasing its value significantly.

Lifestealing is not a budget Crusader at all. They don't even serve the same purpose. Also, Lifestealing will always have full value, Crusader will not. That said, Fiery is still superior in terms of damage.

You're a rogue. You do hard pokes. You're not a warrior, you're not a hunter. Gotta play like a rogue and stop trying to be something you're not. Play your objectives and to your strengths.

i agree with this. i run max agil when its all rogues. when alliance is diverse with pallies, warriors etc firey all day

 

[Pitter]

Fiery on your Barb

Agility on your Assassin's Blade

 

[Classclown]

Offensively, the difference in stats is 0.35 DPS (CB) vs 1.04% crit (AB). In terms of pure stats, the 5 AP will basically never be worth it. The preference here is in attack speed. You should be running both, and swapping in combat.


If you are weaving in and out with minimal uptime, this is correct (the CB being better due to speed part). If you're poking hard for pushback and able to stay on (you have someone slowing), AB is better. Assassin's Blade will always do more DPS with equal time on target because +1.04% crit is (obviously) much better than +0.98 damage, unless your normal swings are <102 (before mitigation and penalties, because they both apply equally).

Fiery is always better for pure damage. 15 Agility is never going to add more damage, regardless of time on target, than Fiery. It is only relevant when you are being poked by melee and need the dodge.

You will NOT miss more often with AB than CB in your offhand. Attack speed does NOT affect hit chance. You would MUCH RATHER miss an AB swing than a CB swing, since the miss chance is static but you lose out on FAR more damage missing a CB than an AB swing.

EDIT: Miscalculated AP, fixed numbers, outcome doesn't change.

4 Agi is .52% crit