Question: what weapons/spec, 19 rogue

[Mazurati]

Learn to use the search function please, I will make a tutorial if need be.

why does anyone want to read an old thread when patches can change things and people are willing to discuss/revisit the topic again?

 

[gr1pp]

why does anyone want to read an old thread when patches can change things and people are willing to discuss/revisit the topic again?

Ye you're right, who can't remember all those insane changes to rogue weapon choices... Last one I can remember is SF becoming a one-hand weapon in 2.4.2 which hit Live Servers 13 May 2008.

 

[Auctionbid]

Thanks everyone for your advices.

 

[Crilicilyn]

I remember the SFK nerf.

 

[Doffe]

5 points in OH damage is gimping yourself. And for garrote spec its 3/3 imp evis and 2/5 malice in the first tier not whatever juicy linked. Garrote spec rly does require you to be a NE and have stealth on cloak to keep up too.

Do you have any kind of math to back up what you said?

 

[builtokill]

Ye you're right, who can't remember all those insane changes to rogue weapon choices... Last one I can remember is SF becoming a one-hand weapon in 2.4.2 which hit Live Servers 13 May 2008.

SF was never a two handed weapon. It only became un-unique...

 

[iaccidentallytwink]

I am waiting for rogues to stop being so self absorbed about 1v1 set ups and start worrying about being viable in WSG premades again. It is my opinion that rogues could be good again in premades provided they are set up correctly. To do this you have to think of two things. 1) you are going to be snared very quickly and won't be able to stay on the EFC for long becuase you also don't have travel forms. 2) maximizing your spec in order to do maximum damage for the time you are on the target.



To accomplish this I would suggest either full garrote spec and/or full ambush spec. I think Garrote can deal an insane amount of damage and really put some pressure on the EFC. Garrote is also a bleed effect that can't be removed by anything except the dwarf racial. Does anyone know how much damage this would do on a debuffed FC my guess is around 800-900 (single debuff) 900-1200 (double debuff)? All you would have to do is wait for him to pass by and then jump him with a single move.

If this was your first post I would have compared you to ArthurianKnight.



Luckily that wasn't and you aren't like Ak at all.

 

[iaccidentallytwink]

SF was never a two handed weapon. It only became un-unique...

He never said it was 2-handed. He said it became ONE-handed.



It wasn't unique. It was Mainhand weapon. Hence becoming one-handed.

 

[Falaris]

I am waiting for rogues to stop being so self absorbed about 1v1 set ups and start worrying about being viable in WSG premades again. It is my opinion that rogues could be good again in premades provided they are set up correctly. To do this you have to think of two things. 1) you are going to be snared very quickly and won't be able to stay on the EFC for long becuase you also don't have travel forms. 2) maximizing your spec in order to do maximum damage for the time you are on the target.



To accomplish this I would suggest either full garrote spec and/or full ambush spec. I think Garrote can deal an insane amount of damage and really put some pressure on the EFC. Garrote is also a bleed effect that can't be removed by anything except the dwarf racial. Does anyone know how much damage this would do on a debuffed FC my guess is around 800-900 (single debuff) 900-1200 (double debuff)? All you would have to do is wait for him to pass by and then jump him with a single move.

Man, the rogues in your guild must be godawful in premades. Everyone talks about how hard it is for a rogue to stay on a target for more than 1-2 seconds, and they should spec/gear appropriately for that occurrence. In reality, the best solution is to..... replace those rogues with better rogues rofl. Pro tip: if your rogues are only staying on a target for 1-2 seconds at a time, youre playing 9v10 in a premade. No spec, gear choice, or anything else is going to compensate for that amount of ineptness.



You say rogues cant stay on a target? What is the rest of your offense, nothing but warlocks/other rogues? Hopefully people have at least 2-3 snares for their offensive setups. In addition to that sprint glyph is hands down the best glyph in the bracket. I have pretty much no problem staying on an FC during crucial 'burst' situations where theres a chance at a return. What people dont realize is generally theres not a continuous pressure youre putting on an FC. Sure, you may be chasing him around constantly, but in reality theres only 2-3 'chances' at a return every couple minutes. Between offensive snares, a 3 minute CD on sprint, and sprint pots (if theyre allowed in your games) there shouldnt be much of a problem having your rogue be in the right position at the right times.

 

[builtokill]

He never said it was 2-handed. He said it became ONE-handed.



It wasn't unique. It was Mainhand weapon. Hence becoming one-handed.

hmm your right.

 

[iaccidentallytwink]

Man, the rogues in your guild must be godawful in premades. Everyone talks about how hard it is for a rogue to stay on a target for more than 1-2 seconds, and they should spec/gear appropriately for that occurrence. In reality, the best solution is to..... replace those rogues with better rogues rofl. Pro tip: if your rogues are only staying on a target for 1-2 seconds at a time, youre playing 9v10 in a premade. No spec, gear choice, or anything else is going to compensate for that amount of ineptness.



You say rogues cant stay on a target? What is the rest of your offense, nothing but warlocks/other rogues? Hopefully people have at least 2-3 snares for their offensive setups. In addition to that sprint glyph is hands down the best glyph in the bracket. I have pretty much no problem staying on an FC during crucial 'burst' situations where theres a chance at a return. What people dont realize is generally theres not a continuous pressure youre putting on an FC. Sure, you may be chasing him around constantly, but in reality theres only 2-3 'chances' at a return every couple minutes. Between offensive snares, a 3 minute CD on sprint, and sprint pots (if theyre allowed in your games) there shouldnt be much of a problem having your rogue be in the right position at the right times.

I think I can retire posting rogue advice on this forum knowing you are around.

 

[Falaris]

Man, the rogues in your guild must be godawful in premades. Everyone talks about how hard it is for a rogue to stay on a target for more than 1-2 seconds, and they should spec/gear appropriately for that occurrence. In reality, the best solution is to..... replace those rogues with better rogues rofl. Pro tip: if your rogues are only staying on a target for 1-2 seconds at a time, youre playing 9v10 in a premade. No spec, gear choice, or anything else is going to compensate for that amount of ineptness.



You say rogues cant stay on a target? What is the rest of your offense, nothing but warlocks/other rogues? Hopefully people have at least 2-3 snares for their offensive setups. In addition to that sprint glyph is hands down the best glyph in the bracket. I have pretty much no problem staying on an FC during crucial 'burst' situations where theres a chance at a return. What people dont realize is generally theres not a continuous pressure youre putting on an FC. Sure, you may be chasing him around constantly, but in reality theres only 2-3 'chances' at a return every couple minutes. Between offensive snares, a 3 minute CD on sprint, and sprint pots (if theyre allowed in your games) there shouldnt be much of a problem having your rogue be in the right position at the right times.

Also, Im going to go ahead and quote myself here and say this is why I feel my spec/gear choices are best in a premade. Damage just doesnt scale very favorably to HP when youre talking about offensive premade people against an FC. With a typical horde FC having around 2500hp buffed, its not like people are going to consistently 'burst down an FC in a premade'. Its typically going to be 6-10 seconds of constant dps on a kiting FC, with the occasional interrupt on a healer if theyre terrible enough to be in range of a focus gouge/kick (kind of surprising how many that are). Having some leet 'burst' spec isnt going to change that youre dropping an FC in this window, the rogue should be set up to put out the most damage over the course of 6-10 seconds.

 

[iaccidentallytwink]

Also, Im going to go ahead and quote myself here and say this is why I feel my spec/gear choices are best in a premade. Damage just doesnt scale very favorably to HP when youre talking about offensive premade people against an FC. With a typical horde FC having around 2500hp buffed, its not like people are going to consistently 'burst down an FC in a premade'. Its typically going to be 6-10 seconds of constant dps on a kiting FC, with the occasional interrupt on a healer if theyre terrible enough to be in range of a focus gouge/kick (kind of surprising how many that are). Having some leet 'burst' spec isnt going to change that youre dropping an FC in this window, the rogue should be set up to put out the most damage over the course of 6-10 seconds.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but "burst" implies a short time period, in which 6 - 10 seconds, in my opinion, more than likely qualifies.



With that being said, burst isn't a valid argument in, against, or for anything, because it's like playing poker with the dealers odds. Sure, you can win, but the RNG is against you when you need it. Okay, you win 20% of premades because of your burst set. Enjoy your 80% loss.

 

[Falaris]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but "burst" implies a short time period, in which 6 - 10 seconds, in my opinion, more than likely qualifies.



With that being said, burst isn't a valid argument in, against, or for anything, because it's like playing poker with the dealers odds. Sure, you can win, but the RNG is against you when you need it. Okay, you win 20% of premades because of your burst set. Enjoy your 80% loss.

Personally, I generally use the 'burst' meaning as to how it correlates in general to wow, instead of specifically one bracket. When I think about someone being 'bursted' down I think about the 80 bracket, or 49s, where people die in the span of a couple globals. Thats just not going to happen in 19s. Sure, there are different ways to interpret 'burst', Im not going give someone a hard time if they have a different meaning for it than me.

 

[iaccidentallytwink]

Personally, I generally use the 'burst' meaning as to how it correlates in general to wow, instead of specifically one bracket. When I think about someone being 'bursted' down I think about the 80 bracket, or 49s, where people die in the span of a couple globals. Thats just not going to happen in 19s. Sure, there are different ways to interpret 'burst', Im not going give someone a hard time if they have a different meaning for it than me.

In the 19's, burst relies on RNG (unlike at 80, where it's blowing your CD's). I assumed you meant it in the RNG-type way, considering this was the 19 forums.

 

[Shazzrah]

In the 19's, burst relies on RNG (unlike at 80, where it's blowing your CD's). I assumed you meant it in the RNG-type way, considering this was the 19 forums.

By burst I mean being able to do a significant amount of damage in a short time period. This can be achieved through various methods but let's imagine a fairly common situation: The EFC is at 30% health and you have 5 combo points with a high crit build, you would only need so much luck to do enough damage here with a teammate to bring the EFC down. If you however have a consistent damage then that would be something the EFC would be more prepared for and you would in fact have less chances to bring him down.



Hope that clarifies what I meant.



-Shazz

 

[lindenkron]

All in all, rogues need special help to be decent on offensive.

(This is despite all your previous arguements)



Wether a rogue is having a bit more burst versus consist DPS is of little, if no importance when using a rogue in an offensive setup.



You're saying that you're running a premade vs premade right? If that's the case;



Any good team, with a little common knowledge would be running a mage on defensive, which is one of the biggest counters for a rogue.

That would mean, the rogue would be needing offensive slowers and dispellers / freedom paladin to be of a decent use. This usually not even being enough, especially if the enemy team is running a kite defensive.



For a typical (On Blackout battlegroup) horde defense, consisting of 1 FC and 5 healers, all camping roof, a rogue is more then valid due to the fact that the fight pretty much sticks in place.



I personally like rogues on offensive, due to the fact that we have a few (or atleast had when we did premades, meh, longer discussion) rogues, that know their spot in the way we build our offensive, but it is not by any means the best option. Warrior / Hunter / Hpriest / Hpala /Rpala / Warlock / shaman / (Some like mages, personally not so much) would easily fill out a spot better if you ask me.



A typical setup in the premades I've run (and it's worked every time.)



Offensive;

Warrior + warrior/hunter + hunter + rogue + ret pala + priest + priest/Hpala.

On topic; Notice the 3x slow(rogue assist) and the Dispeller + Dispeller/Hpala freedom, and even a 2nd ret pala in case he has a free freedom off CD.



Defensive;

FCdruid + CC mage + Shaman/Priest(if no shamans).



My 10 cents, my 2 cents is free.

 

[Falaris]

So I assume every single premade in the history of blackout has ended in a 0-0 tie? How exactly do you expect flag returns with a 4/6 offense/defense split with a 2500hp FC and 5 healers on defense? Do they allow 15 people in warsong in blackout?

 

[Rivfader]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but "burst" implies a short time period, in which 6 - 10 seconds, in my opinion, more than likely qualifies.



With that being said, burst isn't a valid argument in, against, or for anything, because it's like playing poker with the dealers odds. Sure, you can win, but the RNG is against you when you need it. Okay, you win 20% of premades because of your burst set. Enjoy your 80% loss.

This is exactly why I say that crit is not burst, by that logic you coul just ignore hit, stack AP and trust RNG to favor you

 

[lindenkron]

So I assume every single premade in the history of blackout has ended in a 0-0 tie? How exactly do you expect flag returns with a 4/6 offense/defense split with a 2500hp FC and 5 healers on defense? Do they allow 15 people in warsong in blackout?

Lol, fail post there mate, really.



5 healers on horde D be on PuGs? Not Prem V. Prem?



And no, in the games we managed to play while activity was there for it, we're yet undefeated, no ties.



We running a 3 D / 7 O, which is strong for fast returns using teamwork and determination .



you could claim there have been no worthy opponents yet, but blame horde guilds, not us.



And it doesn't matter how much HP a FC got, with enough slows to keep someone in distance, the dmg will be constant. Death is just a question of when.