US player tier list

[Klicka]

Enchants and gear can be changed around example a high stamina set for when you are defending or a high burst set when going for efc. Banning individual enchants and pieces of gear isnt unusual for competitive games however.

Then shouldn't classes like Resto shaman and arcane mage be banned because they have an unfair advantage over the other classes.

 

[Muskie]

Then shouldn't classes like Resto shaman and arcane mage be banned because they have an unfair advantage over the other classes.

the community has come together to self-balance certain specs, items, and enchants to much success. u must be new

 

[Bestworld]

Then shouldn't classes like Resto shaman and arcane mage be banned because they have an unfair advantage over the other classes.

You're playing an MMO. Class imbalance is always going to be a thing, so why add even more imbalance to that by using every consumable known to the game? It's not like there's such crazy imbalance that you can't make yourself useful.

the community has come together to self-balance certain specs, items, and enchants to much success. u must be new

Yes he's obv. new and so far not making a great case of himself. Unlucky.

 

[Goesid]

Then shouldn't classes like Resto shaman and arcane mage be banned because they have an unfair advantage over the other classes.

Why do you feel they have an unfair advantage?
Do you think your father loves you? How does that make you feel? When you look in the mirror what do you see?


Limiting use against stacking classes is nothing unusual either btw.

 

[Klicka]

You're playing an MMO. Class imbalance is always going to be a thing, so why add even more imbalance to that by using every consumable know to the game? It's not like there's such crazy imbalance that you can't make yourself useful.

Then classes that aren't broken like holy pala for example should be able to use consumables without being bashed on.
[doublepost=1553451464,1553451426][/doublepost]

the community has come together to self-balance certain specs, items, and enchants to much success. u must be new

Not in pugs which is what we are discussing.

 

[Bestworld]

Then classes that aren't broken like holy pala for example should be able to use consumables without being bashed on.
[doublepost=1553451464,1553451426][/doublepost]

Not in pugs which is what we are discussing.

You simply fail to see any point thrown at you. You can easily make yourself useful on a holy paladin without consumables.

I would rather have a good player on a bad class, than a bad player on a good class. Thing is with classes that can "do everything", also means that a lot is expected of you, and so it's so easy to see who's actually doing well, and who's not on those classes.

 

[Klicka]

Why do you feel they have an unfair advantage?
Do you think your father loves you? How does that make you feel? When you look in the mirror what do you see?


Limiting use against stacking classes is nothing unusual either btw.

I know for a fact that your father and mother hates you. You can't even afford gamtime. Get a haircut and apply for a job, then maybe you can afford to pay the 15 dollars monthly.
[doublepost=1553451601,1553451542][/doublepost]

You simply fail to see any point thrown at you. You can easily make yourself useful on a holy paladin without consumables.

Yes you can be useful but you will never be as good as a resto shaman, which is why consumables can help to "even out the playing field" as the other guy said.

 

[Goesid]

I know for a fact that your father and mother hates you. You can't even afford gamtime. Get a haircut and apply for a job, then maybe you can afford to pay the 15 dollars monthly.

I do need a haircut, how did you know? What makes you think I cant afford gametime?

 

[mewmewpewpew]

Things are getting spicy.

 

[Bestworld]

Anyways, I'm done here. It doesn't matter what arguments are thrown out it seems.

Point is. Do what you want, but don't be surprised of the consequences when what you're doing is negative for the bracket. That's pretty much final.

 

[Goesid]

Yes you can be useful but you will never be as good as a resto shaman, which is why consumables can help to "even out the playing field" as the other guy said.

Just like bis changes sometimes what classes are the most useful also changes from time to time.

 

[Eclipsis]

It really depends why you came to the bracket and why you enjoy it.

Did you make a 19 to play with and against members of a tight knit community, and have good quality games.

Or did you make a 19 to lord it over people with your superior gear, and now have to adapt because the queues have been unmerged.

What you do is your prerogative, certainly, but it does say a lot about your reasons for joining the bracket, and people will notice.

 

[Tonkks]

I'm gonna go on a limb here and say it's because they ruin games?????

I'm gonna do a very quick breakdown of how consumables affect the game...

Since WoW is an MMO with a broad variety of classes, the game isn't linear. Now add a various amount of consumables to that, and the games become a total mess where you can't really play around your class and game knowledge, because suddenly a rogue that travels at x speed and is in y spot doesn't matter anymore, because the rogue can easily re-position quickly with the use of a speed pot.

This is a huge factor when doing objective plays or trying to cross as an FC, because it essentially accumulates to whether you can cross mid or not. In an ideal situation where you have an idea of the rogue(s) positioning due to them having been out of stealth for a little while, and it means you have an opportunity to cross, suddenly all of that doesn't matter, because they can just chug a speed pot and make up for their mistakes.

Same situation on offense. You force trinkets and whatnot on d, and you make a huge investment in your next kill because stacks are somewhat within the range of landing a kill and that'd be the ideal situation. No defensives left. Instead of EFC dying, what happens is that he chugs a third wind potion. Now all the work you did on O to force an ideal situation for a return doesn't matter.

Now let's point out a few classes and races where consumables tend to excel a lot.

Saltwater potions. They're extremely good on rogues compared to let's say a warrior. Why? Because the rogue has an easier time connecting to a target (because they can simply stealth to it) and has a stun to secure some up-time on the target the rogue chooses to go on. So you have a class that already does incredibly well on objectives become SIGNIFICANTLY stronger because of a consumable that wouldn't scale as well on other classes simply because of the tools they already have available to them. Same thing goes for balance druids. Prowl, easy access to target, pop saltwater, bam crazy damage out of nowhere, unpredictably.

Speed pots. I already mentioned the rogue situation where your awareness as a player doesn't matter as much, because the rogue can make up for positioning mistakes by chugging a speed pot. Now imagine Worgen FC druids chaining racial > speed pot > dash. Good luck playing around that.

Let's take a situation on d. You held off their goes reasonably so you feel pretty comfortable about the situation. Now instead of having the comfortable situation you set up, a bunch of boomkins, or a rogue + boomkin open with saltwaters, basically oneshotting your FC. How do you play around that?

And the list goes on and on.

You do not need consumables of any form to be useful in a twink BG. You can easily make yourself a valuable player by simply understanding the game, knowing what you're supposed to do, where to be, and learning from your mistakes rather than chug a consumable to make up for them.

Pugs are for fun yes, so is competitive play.
Pugs do emulate competitive play. Tonkss, I've never played a competitive 10v10 premade vs you or against you, so unsure how you can tell me, the person who's one of the people with most pug games played aswell as most premade games played.

Using consums only does 1 thing: Giving you an edge over people who don't use them.
Why would you want to have an edge over people? Your goal in a competitive environment should always be to play on an even playing field. You wouldn't wanna play soccer with an advantage from the start, such as starting with 5 points or something.

And yes, you could argue that everyone should use consums because it'd be more fun. This might be true, but it's unrealistic. Everyone will never be using consums. But making everyone not use consums is very possible. That happened during all of WoD.

Only argument you can make which is valid, is that you don't care about an even playing field. You just wanna goof around. And that argument is definitely valid, except for the fact that no one wants to play versus someone who's starting the game with an edge. So you're ruining the fun for other people.

You guys assume a couple things here that frankly are just not true. #1 is that classes at 19 are balanced. Blizzard creates (attempts) classes to have niche abilities - such as a rogues stealth or a druids travel form. Every class at end game as niche abilities, which allow for stacking of these abilities to make up popular comps in competitive play. This goes at the window at 19, as the game was not designed for our meta in mind. What happens is you get rediculous classes/specs, and completely useless others. Resto shamans were not intended to do a shit load of damage, nor were many specs intended to be utterly useless (prot in really anything, assass rogue, even feral Druid took a recent hit). Additionally, you get classes like Druid- who have an incredible amount of movement in this bracket while retaining a top-tier damage/burst as well as good healing.

#2 is that in competitive play- both teams get to decide the rules. You are correct Mvq- I have not played an organized 10v10 against/with you (I have not done much competitive play for years now) nor do I remember playing many PuGs against you- which is strange as I queue relatively frequently in this bracket.

Regardless- in competitive play, both teams get to decide that we will only use two stealth classes, we will not have more than one mage, we will not use gear such as legion 180ilvl rings or Gfd shoulder/leg enchants. You don’t get to decide this in pugs. I’ll enter a BG against 5 balance druids, who join fully buffed and consistently pop speed potions. What do I do here? Come to the forums, in game message them, report players for using items that I don’t think are fair?

You cannot control what a player on the other team does. You can not control comp. You can’t control if they use those stupid boards or chain saltwaters. You can only control what YOU bring to your team to have the best chance at winning. Now I do not condone using items such as legion rings (which people have been banned for using) nor will I use items like breakable boards. But in my opinion- if you enter a BG and do not have swiftness potions (especially) but other consumables- you are intentionally underprepared.

That’s okay. I get it. Plenty of people don’t like to use consumables for different reasons. But you are fighting a losing argument when you attempt to try to tell others what they *shouldnt* do in a PUG environment. Mvq I’m all FOR an even playing field. Which is why everyone should have these items- as not doing so gives the other team an advantage. Your soccer analogy- if you can start with 5 points- the other team has the option to start with 5 points as well. Your argument is that you want to start with 0 points, or 3 points, and then complain when you lose the match by two points- and attest it to the fact that the other team had an advantage.

It really becomes laughable. I have queued against a 5 man premade consisting of 3 druids and 2 mages- all in discord- and then received a whisper from one of them “if your Druid didn’t pop those speed potions we would have won”. Really? That is why? You get a group of friends together, which happen to be valuable classes to your team, and are able to sync targets/positioning over the mic- but the swiftness potion is an unfair advantage?

I have never understood this argument. Twinks have been using consumables since before twinkinfo even existed. Guilds have even been named after Rumsey Rum, but this argument still exists.

 

[Fancy]

smh when mvq thinks he can make a list 1 week into xpoff twinking

Obviously myself as top for every class.

 

[Goesid]

You guys assume a couple things here that frankly are just not true. #1 is that classes at 19 are balanced. Blizzard creates (attempts) classes to have niche abilities - such as a rogues stealth or a druids travel form. Every class at end game as niche abilities, which allow for stacking of these abilities to make up popular comps in competitive play. This goes at the window at 19, as the game was not designed for our meta in mind. What happens is you get rediculous classes/specs, and completely useless others. Resto shamans were not intended to do a shit load of damage, nor were many specs intended to be utterly useless (prot in really anything, assass rogue, even feral Druid took a recent hit). Additionally, you get classes like Druid- who have an incredible amount of movement in this bracket while retaining a top-tier damage/burst as well as good healing.

#2 is that in competitive play- both teams get to decide the rules. You are correct Mvq- I have not played an organized 10v10 against/with you (I have not done much competitive play for years now) nor do I remember playing many PuGs against you- which is strange as I queue relatively frequently in this bracket.

Regardless- in competitive play, both teams get to decide that we will only use two stealth classes, we will not have more than one mage, we will not use gear such as legion 180ilvl rings or Gfd shoulder/leg enchants. You don’t get to decide this in pugs. I’ll enter a BG against 5 balance druids, who join fully buffed and consistently pop speed potions. What do I do here? Come to the forums, in game message them, report players for using items that I don’t think are fair?

You cannot control what a player on the other team does. You can not control comp. You can’t control if they use those stupid boards or chain saltwaters. You can only control what YOU bring to your team to have the best chance at winning. Now I do not condone using items such as legion rings (which people have been banned for using) nor will I use items like breakable boards. But in my opinion- if you enter a BG and do not have swiftness potions (especially) but other consumables- you are intentionally underprepared.

That’s okay. I get it. Plenty of people don’t like to use consumables for different reasons. But you are fighting a losing argument when you attempt to try to tell others what they *shouldnt* do in a PUG environment. Mvq I’m all FOR an even playing field. Which is why everyone should have these items- as not doing so gives the other team an advantage. Your soccer analogy- if you can start with 5 points- the other team has the option to start with 5 points as well. Your argument is that you want to start with 0 points, or 3 points, and then complain when you lose the match by two points- and attest it to the fact that the other team had an advantage.

It really becomes laughable. I have queued against a 5 man premade consisting of 3 druids and 2 mages- all in discord- and then received a whisper from one of them “if your Druid didn’t pop those speed potions we would have won”. Really? That is why? You get a group of friends together, which happen to be valuable classes to your team, and are able to sync targets/positioning over the mic- but the swiftness potion is an unfair advantage?

I have never understood this argument. Twinks have been using consumables since before twinkinfo even existed. Guilds have even been named after Rumsey Rum, but this argument still exists.

Lots of specs are garbage at endgame and will be good in the next patch. Pretty much every tank except DH goes unused. Just like in 19s it goes around and around. There are alot of niche abilities at lower levels. Popping consumables just seems like a way for you to fight a class you werent supposed to fight.

 

[Fancy]

God damn the quality of twinks have drop dramatically, speed pots are bad, pots in general cannot be used in a competitive situation so if you want to become a good player, learn to live without it or fucking reroll you shitkid playing a shit class. Now that xpoff has removed the shitters that lvl we will see the retards being spat on and the kings of the gulch emerge victorious, you can pick your side of that equation, but once you are known for using speed pots your credibility in actually playing with good players goes right down that drain with the rest of my shit you fucking retards.

 

[Bestworld]

You guys assume a couple things here that frankly are just not true. #1 is that classes at 19 are balanced. Blizzard creates (attempts) classes to have niche abilities - such as a rogues stealth or a druids travel form. Every class at end game as niche abilities, which allow for stacking of these abilities to make up popular comps in competitive play. This goes at the window at 19, as the game was not designed for our meta in mind. What happens is you get rediculous classes/specs, and completely useless others. Resto shamans were not intended to do a shit load of damage, nor were many specs intended to be utterly useless (prot in really anything, assass rogue, even feral Druid took a recent hit). Additionally, you get classes like Druid- who have an incredible amount of movement in this bracket while retaining a top-tier damage/burst as well as good healing.

#2 is that in competitive play- both teams get to decide the rules. You are correct Mvq- I have not played an organized 10v10 against/with you (I have not done much competitive play for years now) nor do I remember playing many PuGs against you- which is strange as I queue relatively frequently in this bracket.

Regardless- in competitive play, both teams get to decide that we will only use two stealth classes, we will not have more than one mage, we will not use gear such as legion 180ilvl rings or Gfd shoulder/leg enchants. You don’t get to decide this in pugs. I’ll enter a BG against 5 balance druids, who join fully buffed and consistently pop speed potions. What do I do here? Come to the forums, in game message them, report players for using items that I don’t think are fair?

You cannot control what a player on the other team does. You can not control comp. You can’t control if they use those stupid boards or chain saltwaters. You can only control what YOU bring to your team to have the best chance at winning. Now I do not condone using items such as legion rings (which people have been banned for using) nor will I use items like breakable boards. But in my opinion- if you enter a BG and do not have swiftness potions (especially) but other consumables- you are intentionally underprepared.

That’s okay. I get it. Plenty of people don’t like to use consumables for different reasons. But you are fighting a losing argument when you attempt to try to tell others what they *shouldnt* do in a PUG environment. Mvq I’m all FOR an even playing field. Which is why everyone should have these items- as not doing so gives the other team an advantage. Your soccer analogy- if you can start with 5 points- the other team has the option to start with 5 points as well. Your argument is that you want to start with 0 points, or 3 points, and then complain when you lose the match by two points- and attest it to the fact that the other team had an advantage.

It really becomes laughable. I have queued against a 5 man premade consisting of 3 druids and 2 mages- all in discord- and then received a whisper from one of them “if your Druid didn’t pop those speed potions we would have won”. Really? That is why? You get a group of friends together, which happen to be valuable classes to your team, and are able to sync targets/positioning over the mic- but the swiftness potion is an unfair advantage?

I have never understood this argument. Twinks have been using consumables since before twinkinfo even existed. Guilds have even been named after Rumsey Rum, but this argument still exists.

1) Class imbalance will always be a factor in an MMO that revolves both around PvE and PvP content. With that many classes and those 2 environments in play, it's going to be incredibly hard to balance.

WITH THAT SAID, I don't think 19 is as imbalanced as you make it out to be. Sure there are some classes that's total garbage tier, but that goes for any game ever made that has unique characters/classes with their different abilities. Classes will have their ups and downs, pros and cons, good and bad patches and so on.

2) How does adding consumables make up for balancing the game? Especially when they aren't linear in the advantages they give. Some classes benefit more from x consumable than others etc.

3) Mvq always have kind of scuffed analogies. Some are good, most are meh (no offense Mvq).

The thing is simple. You have a majority of people that set a standard, just like with any social/competitive environment. Then you break that standard by doing something that wouldn't be considered acceptable within the norm of that environment. That will have a negative impact on the environment, and it will make the majority have a negative view of you. It's not rocket science.

It's the minority that chooses to use consumables, and it's the majority (and those who have shaped the bracket's competitive environment over YEARS now) that came to an agreement of consumables not being healthy for the game in a competitive aspect.

Nothing more, nothing less. Not rocket science, not hard to understand.

If a person is unaware of this due to being new, or coming from xpon to xpoff it's understandable. Totally different ball game. But once you're settled in, you understand the bracket, then there's literally no excuse if you keep using it.

 

[Kracks]

if people are so against consumables then why does everyone keep putting ripduck on the "best of" lists?? are y'all blind?

 

[mewmewpewpew]

In Duck we trust.

 

[Tonkks]

1) Class imbalance will always be a factor in an MMO that revolves both around PvE and PvP content. With that many classes and those 2 environments in play, it's going to be incredibly hard to balance.

WITH THAT SAID, I don't think 19 is as imbalanced as you make it out to be. Sure there are some classes that's total garbage tier, but that goes for any game ever made that has unique characters/classes with their different abilities. Classes will have their ups and downs, pros and cons, good and bad patches and so on.

2) How does adding consumables make up for balancing the game? Especially when they aren't linear in the advantages they give. Some classes benefit more from x consumable than others etc.

3) Mvq always have kind of scuffed analogies. Some are good, most are meh (no offense Mvq).

The thing is simple. You have a majority of people that set a standard, just like with any social/competitive environment. Then you break that standard by doing something that wouldn't be considered acceptable within the norm of that environment. That will have a negative impact on the environment, and it will make the majority have a negative view of you. It's not rocket science.

It's the minority that chooses to use consumables, and it's the majority (and those who have shaped the bracket's competitive environment over YEARS now) that came to an agreement of consumables not being healthy for game in a competitive aspect.

Nothing more, nothing less. Not rocket science, not hard to understand.

1. I would argue that in competitive play, actions are taken to remove some of the issues of class imbalance by limiting stealth classes and limiting class stacking. Perfect. In PuGs- this is not done, which could mean I join a game with 3 prot pallies and be against 5 balance druids. This is not balance. Additionally, I would argue that 10 balance druids at 19 would make a pretty damn good team in competitive play- where at end game would not stand a chance against any decent RBG team above 2k.

2. This is not my argument. My argument is that the game is unbalanced already, and NOT having consumables makes it MORE unbalanced. Consumables are already in the game. Like I said- you don’t get to decide if your opponent uses them- you only get to decide if you yourself use them.

3. As you said. We as a community set the standard for competitive play. Currently- you can not use consumables in competitive play. This did not used to be the case. You COULD use them, and we DID. Sure, we collectively decided which consumables could and could not be used- but we had that option- because we would all be on the same page. you do not get to set the standard in a PUG. Anyone can join, anyone can use whatever they want- as bugged or unbalanced as they want (keeping in mine there are bannable offenses).

4. I agree. We have decided (or blizzard has decided for us) that we will not use consumables in competitive play. My argument is that pugs are not competitive play- and I agree with you. Consumables CAN be gamebreaking. Something like a glider can close the distance significantly as you said, and make up for bad positioning. My assumption is that the other team will use it (and they do) and that if I do not, I am at a disadvantage.

Bestworld- i know you play EU, which I do not have any exposure to the games. On US servers, it is not the minority that uses consumables. It is the vast majority. The *toxic* players are the ones that queue with 5 boomkins, pop consumables on CD, and attempt to GY farm or hold the flag etc.