Official Tourney News! (yes, THAT tourney)

[Adeimantus]

Basically you're saying : "Twinks, don't be twinks for this tournament. Let's play it Legion PvP style. Don't play it like you would normally have and please don't do those things (like weap swap) that can help you overcome or optimize certain situations. Don't use this item or that one, but some of them yes, but most no".
So it only becomes a class competition, and not a twink competition. And low levels are not really balanced, are they ?

People can't use loss of control items, can they use enhancing items, like jade pendants ?
Why are people allowed to play new races when not everyone can have them if they don't have the right expansion ?

Twinking is also commitment and days, sometimes even weeks or in the most extreme cases months of farming. Trying to find the right gear for the right situation, sometimes it's arenas, sometimes BG. It also means playing around certain abilities or items, defensively or offensively. Some people have been twinking for years, some for days. With this rule in place people may as well go in arenas naked carrying only weapons, it''s the same thing.
I remember years ago there was a 39 league going on in EU (i'm sure the thread can be found on old twinkinfo forums), and there was this Hunter (named Tolli ?) who had the 100% speed ground mount (back then mount speed depended on the mount not on the riding skill) and players were debating wether or not he was allowed to use it in arenas, after many posts everyone agreed he was allowed to use it, even though he was the only one to have it. Because that was the whole thing about twinking : twinks are not just a class, twinks are an optimized character.

That was my point.

But: after all, this is your tournament, you can decide how to manage it of course, and people are free to join or not. I just can't see this as a "twink" tournament with that rule in place.

It's a competitive tournament for money though. A wild west approach creates enormous barriers to entry and limits competition to those who have been playing the bracket since elementary school. It would also be completely horrible to play/watch if people could do literally whatever the fuck they wanted.

I don't think the legion comparison makes sense either. You can still make decisions about how to build your character, you just don't get to have an overwhelming power advantage over new entries.

 

[Sanit]

But Tidal Charm definitely does (it's not a random cc, it's a calculated one, usable only once, and for which you are sacrificing many stats)

you sound fucking dumb. just an fyi

arcane mage complaining that their instant stun from 30 yards is banned from competitive pvp. now i've seen it all.

 

[Chops]

But Tidal Charm definitely does (it's not a random cc, it's a calculated one, usable only once, and for which you are sacrificing many stats), i also think grandfathered items like +12agi on cloak or even head enchants if they still exist, and tradeglitched should be allowed, they are part of the gear that makes you a twink.

yeaaaaaaaaaa

You had alot more clout when I thought you were griping about something like green whelp armor. Now its obvious youre just upset that the toys you got a decade ago (or by exploiting) wouldnt be allowed.

Go away.

 

[Livingforce]

@Livingforce I like alot of this, especially the "legal" stuff (for lack of a better word).

Also, given our conversation, we will probably move to best of 5, finals best of 7.

I do have some questions/concerns I wanna iron out.

I cant tell if the sign up/composition format would allow for a team to register 4 players and endless characters? Not something I would like. I dont want the tournament to be decided by which team can field the biggest pool of comps. Im thinking something like "each team can register a maximum of 4 players and 4 characters. If a team wants to register 3 players and 4 characters, this is also allowed"

For example, a team sign up can look like:

Rise: RShaman
Sanit: Ret
Chops: Warrior/Druid

Or

Rise: RShaman
Sanit: Ret
Chops: Warrior
Drad: Druid

But its cant look like this:

Rise: Rsham/Priest
Sanit: Hunter/Pally
Chops: Warrior/Druid
Drad: Druid/Priest/Warrior

My main concern here is that I want the tournament to feel accessible to folks who are new to the bracket. I dont want people to feel like "hey, I wanna make 39s for this tourney but I dont want to level and gear 5 different classes so our team can build any comp at any time". I like the idea of limiting teams to 4-5 characters and either 3 or 4 players, depending on how the team wants to build.

Regarding the comps, i believe the teams should be able to run 3 toons per player, otherwise your setting up some teams that will be doomed to fail due to comp restriction.

The rule that i mentioned in previous post. To prevent people abusing their comps, they are only allowed to switch once per series. Not every game. I strongly suggest you reconsider this. Otherwise everyone will just try to find the strongest comp to win and will not have as many diverse comps that will play in the tournament. Gives teams a chance.

The whole point of the tournament is to keep it as competitive as possible with as little rules as possible. Why would you want to restrict the amount of comps one team can use when the whole point is to keep this tournament as diverse as possible.

I give you a example, X team can beat C team but A team can beat X. Though C can beat A team.

New players/teams have been given plenty of time to make multiple toons needed to compete at a competitive level in the tournament. Theres no reason why we should restrict this when we are trying to give people a wide variety of comps to choose from.

 

[Chops]

Regarding the comps, i believe the teams should be able to run at least 3 toons per player, otherwise your setting up some teams that will be doomed to fail due to comp restriction.

The rule that i mentioned to prevent people abusing their comps to much is that they are only allowed to switch once per series. Not every game, i strongly suggest you reconsider this. Otherwise everyone will just try to find the strongest comp to win and not have as many diverse comps that will play in the tournament. Gives teams a chance.

The whole point of the tournament is to keep it as competitive was possible with as little rules as possible. Why would you want to restrict the amount of comps one team can use when the whole point is to keep this tournament as diverse as possible.

I give you a example, X team can beat C team but A team can beat X. Though C can beat A team.

Any new players/teams have plenty of time to make multiple toons needed to compete at a competitive level in the tournament. Theres no reason why we should restrict this when we are trying to give people a wide variety of comps to choose from.

Hrm.

I may meet you in the middle on this and say limit of 2-3 characters per player. I do want to encourage some measure of strategy in building a team, not just showing up with 3 players who each have 7 twinks.

But Im not terribly married to this, though. Im gonna keep thinking on it.

--Edit--

@Livingforce Talked it over with Rise and Im convinced of something like "each player can register a max of 3 characters." That gives a team of three up to 9 toons and a team of 4 up to 12. We only have 10 classes available to us, so that pretty much covers anything.

 

[Enno]

Yes, you can have comp variety, but christ I don't think you should be able to play whatever comp you have at will. You should be forced to lock in 4 players (3+1 sub if wanted), but total class/chars should not exceed 6 or something. This let's you run 2 completely separate comps, rotate healer class if necessary and provide some dps choices. Maybe 2 per player, max 6.

Also, not every team is going to want/be able to field 4 players, so you're punishing them by taking away that 4th slot's char picks. Cap it by total chars.

 

[Chops]

Also, not every team is going to want/be able to field 4 players, so you're punishing them by taking away that 4th slot's char picks. Cap it by total chars.

This is a fair point.

And I also worry about allowing a team to essentially run any counter comp they want into every match. But I also want to encourage the strategy involved in having choices from match to match. Lemme think on it and watch yall argue it out in this thread

 

[DigitalChemyst]

I'm more in agreement with your original train of thought @Chops . I don't like the thought of everyone running every comp imaginable because they have 2-3 extra toons per player. I'd be in favor of capping toon limit to 4 or 5 (regardless if a team has 4 players or 3). This gives a team some flexibility to cover bad matchups or flaws in a comp, but ultimately still forces the team into perfecting specific strategies. I think how Blizzard set up their world championships is the standard for what 3v3 arena should look like.

 

[Enno]

I think how Blizzard set up their world championships is the standard for what 3v3 arena should look like.

Ding. Ding. Ding.

Dear lord, even Blizzard requires you to use tournament rulesets (ie. what we're doing by standardizing gear availability); curbing the barrier to entry means you have to use -gasp- skill and bracket knowledge.

 

[Livingforce]

Hrm.

I may meet you in the middle on this and say limit of 2-3 characters per player. I do want to encourage some measure of strategy in building a team, not just showing up with 3 players who each have 7 twinks.

But Im not terribly married to this, though. Im gonna keep thinking on it.

--Edit--

@Livingforce Talked it over with Rise and Im convinced of something like "each player can register a max of 3 characters." That gives a team of three up to 9 toons and a team of 4 up to 12. We only have 10 classes available to us, so that pretty much covers anything.

That’s a fair rule, it’s also what I suggested in my post haha. Well done chops!

 

[Chops]

I think how Blizzard set up their world championships is the standard for what 3v3 arena should look like.

I've only ever watched the world championships casually, and what it seems like is each player gets two classes? I just skimmed through their ruleset and couldnt see anything about team composition rules. How does Blizz do it?

 

[Sail]

Blizzard doesn't have a class limit per player, they are limited to what classes they can play at high level.

Also, to balance this the way they do the picks is pretty extensive... I can't remember exactly how it goes, but I'll give it a shot

Team 1 (or 2?) picks map
Team 1 picks team
Then, team 2 picks team (can counter)

***After first map is picked, that map cannot be picked again.

After the first team wins, the losing team will take over team 2, and the winner takes over team 1 (so that now they can get counter comped).

If anyone knows exactly how it's done, please correct!

 

[toskosa]

3V3 arena bro

lolo my bad thats what I get for trying to read things after 40 hours of no sleep.

 

[Chops]

I think I've stumbled on an elegant solution.

Each team can register 8 characters but no more than 6 classes. Each team will be allowed one (and only one) comp switch during a match.

I believe this provides maximum flexibility while also not setting a team up to have access to any comp they want.

My reasoning goes like this: we have ten classes. Between three players with three characters, that's essentially access to any comp you could want. It truly becomes that with four players.

I know there's reasons to allow that but I think it makes the idea of joining the tourney a little daunting.

But if we limit it to six classes, that's essentially two per player and I figure everyone's got two classes they're comfy with.

It also gives a wide range of comp possibilities while still forcing a decision from people.

Extending the total character limit to 8 without allowing more classes still allows teams to either A) sign up a fourth person as a true alternate/sub OR B) make some interesting decisions in their character assignments between players.

It also allows teams of three some increased flexibility to account for not having a fourth player.

I know that rule is a little more convoluted than I'd have liked, but I think it fits within the goal of maximizing fair and interesting play.

 

[Bootybae]

Sounds fun, count me in!

 

[Scope]

What if and hear me out, dont put any comp restrictions or total class limits and just ignore comp and class limit for one sec and use arena format to give us a solution.

1st game -> flip a coin, whoever loses the toss has to submit their comp blindly (cannot change for the 1st game), but get to choose map location. Winner of the toss has the chance to counter.

2nd game -> Winner of game one now has to blind pick their comp or remain with the previous one, but gets to pick map. Loser of game one gets to counter.

3rd game -> Winner of game two now has to blind pick their comp or remain with the previous one, but gets to pick map. Loser of game one gets to counter.

4th game -> so on and so forth

5th game -> so on and so forth

Someone needs to confirm whether choosing arena map is even possible with spectator addon.

Also Team leaders are responsible for letting the appropriate coordinator know what comp they are playing beforehand. beforehand as in when notified by appropriate coordinator.


Regardless of what you guys think, I have no doubt in my mind, teams will not play more 2/3 comps at most just because thats the nature of the beast. being able to counter teams will hopefully make it more entertaining in my eyes.

Let me know what you guys think.

 

[Sanit]

What if and hear me out, dont put any comp restrictions or total class limits and just ignore comp and class limit for one sec and use arena format to give us a solution.

1st game -> flip a coin, whoever loses the toss has to submit their comp blindly (cannot change for the 1st game), but get to choose map location. Winner of the toss has the chance to counter.

2nd game -> Winner of game one now has to blind pick their comp or remain with the previous one, but gets to pick map. Loser of game one gets to counter.

3rd game -> Winner of game two now has to blind pick their comp or remain with the previous one, but gets to pick map. Loser of game one gets to counter.

4th game -> so on and so forth

5th game -> so on and so forth

Someone needs to confirm whether choosing arena map is even possible with spectator addon.

Also Team leaders are responsible for letting the appropriate coordinator know what comp they are playing beforehand. beforehand as in when notified by appropriate coordinator.


Regardless of what you guys think, I have no doubt in my mind, teams will not play more 2/3 comps at most just because thats the nature of the beast. being able to counter teams will hopefully make it more entertaining in my eyes.

Let me know what you guys think.

tl;dr

picture rnt working. thatsgonnabeanofrommedawg_randyjackson.gif

 

[Scope]

tl;dr

picture rnt working. thatsgonnabeanofrommedawg_randyjackson.gif

so just not going to read? or do you have any reasoning?

 

[Chops]

What if and hear me out, dont put any comp restrictions or total class limits and just ignore comp and class limit for one sec and use arena format to give us a solution.

1st game -> flip a coin, whoever loses the toss has to submit their comp blindly (cannot change for the 1st game), but get to choose map location. Winner of the toss has the chance to counter.

2nd game -> Winner of game one now has to blind pick their comp or remain with the previous one, but gets to pick map. Loser of game one gets to counter.

3rd game -> Winner of game two now has to blind pick their comp or remain with the previous one, but gets to pick map. Loser of game one gets to counter.

4th game -> so on and so forth

5th game -> so on and so forth

Someone needs to confirm whether choosing arena map is even possible with spectator addon.

Also Team leaders are responsible for letting the appropriate coordinator know what comp they are playing beforehand. beforehand as in when notified by appropriate coordinator.


Regardless of what you guys think, I have no doubt in my mind, teams will not play more 2/3 comps at most just because thats the nature of the beast. being able to counter teams will hopefully make it more entertaining in my eyes.

Let me know what you guys think.

I understand the impulse to not put any restrictions on it but even Blizz runs "1 healer max, 1 tank max" restrictions at the arena tourney. And not running further restrictions makes sense at end game because thats where balancing is aimed. Nominally, at least, the classes are balanced.

Thats not true at low level pvp. Class/comp restrictions are essentially how we "balance" a bracket that Blizzard really has no interest in balancing. I'd ideally like to be able to say "fuck it, you wanna run three priests? Run three priests" but thats ridiculous at 39. So we make restrictions.

As for changing comps between each game... naw man. Thats a good way to add a bunch of unnecessary time to a tournament we're trying to make work across like 12 time zones. Again, sounds good as an ideal but its not gonna work in practice.

Further, I fully agree with you that Im probably overthinking this. If I didnt put any restrictions on number of toons or class comps or anything, we'd probably still see the majority of teams sign up with 2, maaaaaaybe 3 comps. But we would have that one team that signed up with 4 people, each with a full slate of twinks. And we'd be having this argument after the tournament rather than before. I'd like to head that off so everythings clear upfront. AND so that (heaven forbid) this goes well and we turn it into a regular thing, we've got a solid set of repeatable rules that can work across patches and xpacs.

 

[Scope]

I understand the impulse to not put any restrictions on it but even Blizz runs "1 healer max, 1 tank max" restrictions at the arena tourney. And not running further restrictions makes sense at end game because thats where balancing is aimed. Nominally, at least, the classes are balanced.

Thats not true at low level pvp. Class/comp restrictions are essentially how we "balance" a bracket that Blizzard really has no interest in balancing. I'd ideally like to be able to say "fuck it, you wanna run three priests? Run three priests" but thats ridiculous at 39. So we make restrictions.

As for changing comps between each game... naw man. Thats a good way to add a bunch of unnecessary time to a tournament we're trying to make work across like 12 time zones. Again, sounds good as an ideal but its not gonna work in practice.

Further, I fully agree with you that Im probably overthinking this. If I didnt put any restrictions on number of toons or class comps or anything, we'd probably still see the majority of teams sign up with 2, maaaaaaybe 3 comps. But we would have that one team that signed up with 4 people, each with a full slate of twinks. And we'd be having this argument after the tournament rather than before. I'd like to head that off so everythings clear upfront. AND so that (heaven forbid) this goes well and we turn it into a regular thing, we've got a solid set of repeatable rules that can work across patches and xpacs.

yeah timing is an issue.
guess, I just gotta practice thug and wait to see who brings the best thug to the tournament.
zzzzzzzz