danny glover
Officially Retired
kale will awlways be num 1
Most loved 20 twink?
- Thread starter Neon
- Start date
Original
100% GCD Hacker
He crutches on consumables insanely hard.
Leek
Legend
Yeah but he doesn't abandon his team 4 minutes into the bg.
Original
100% GCD Hacker
I had a legitimate reason to afk as my team needed me to play premades. Also I never afk, and I don't see as how my skill as a player is effected by me afking one game. I recall you saying you won the game in the end as well, so what's the big deal.
Leek
Legend
Lol you told the team to "have fun losing" and then left. The real original is long gone.
Original
100% GCD Hacker
I don't recall saying that but I was pretty salty about playing vs 29 brewmasters all day, so mb if I did, but even so, I don't see why you are so focused on this one game rofl.
Leek
Legend
Multiple games. I recall all 3 bgs that we were in together, you left all of them within 5 minutes.
danny glover
Officially Retired
if original is so bad you should be happy he afk's bgs. i don't get your logic.
LennywBT
SpeeDIO
Not if he keeps using gliders and speed pots every game. Your concept of BiS relies on using consumables you say ? Nope, if he would join a 10v10, he would not be as good.
So, Original gets the tittle. Alright i like Recluse, i don't like his "Play style".
Leek
Legend
Nope my concept of best rogue isn't about using as much consumables as possible. It's about getting the efc fast. So I would say best rogues are recluse Xc and visual.
LennywBT
SpeeDIO
Uhhh.... Consumables. Original doesn't even have consumables, and the only reason he Gliders is to glitch around places, like Silvermoon City and stuff, which he taught me to do as well.
Pvp aspect ? He knows when to land a sap and to intercept, what those rogues you mentioned would do is, open, swift pot, glider, open, dead. Lets not talk about sap control, which Original so far is one of the few people who even know the concept of what it means. Ehh.
Leek
Legend
I liked him better on alli then on horde. He is completely useless on horde.
Petyr
no lackin
if you don't use consumables as a rogue in this bracket you're doing something wrong lmao
recluse > all other vet rogues for contributions in pug games - i've played extensively on both sides and he's a pain in the ass to play against while original + others go unnoticed.
the idea of not using consumables is fucking stupid and it will only make you a liability to your team if you're unable to get returns + objectives completed with the same frequency. not to mention that it's easy enough to 2 shot anyone without consumables - not using them is not a very impressive task as a vet rogue when you're overpowered af compared to f2p. what consumables do well is assist with positioning on efcs - due to the lack of sprint, there are cases where you will either need to swift pot / glider or you will literally have no possible chance of killing the efc. in this situation, would you rather have a rogue who claims to not use consumables for moral/skill reasons or someone who will actually kill the efc? i'd take the later - yet, given that this debate has been occurring on here for years, i'd imagine some asshats would still rather lose the game.
in the past i've "crutched" on consumables just as hard on rogue + hunter and i was yet to see anyone who could match me as f2p / vet as a result - if you're not using consumables then you're only fucking yourself + your team over in pugs. premades are another story but considering that those are a joke @ 20 they aren't even worth mentioning.
and lol @ the "best rogue ever" claims earlier in this thread - this is the stupidest shit that i have seen on TI in ages. i'd give that title to rushour for being the f2p equivalent of recluse in MoP. his swift pot / thistle tea game was always on point and as a result he outperformed pretty much every p2p rogue that i saw. same goes for ballmer, would sit on defense literally the entire game to get returns instead of ganking in mid (which i'm guilty of). other honorable mentions go to zaronce + airles for arriving on the scene a bit later but still outperforming most p2p. all of the current rogues have a long way to go before they can even compare to some of these players - and considering that the bracket is very different now, it may not even be worth mentioning.
sap control is simple if you have half of a brain - most those "other" rogues that you mentioned have extensive endgame experience and you can assume that they understand the concept. what matters is getting kills @ the highest rate possible - this is not a bracket that requires skill by any means, efficiency is instead what delivers results.
as for the answer to this topic: riptides, snug, fatbellyzz, cower, bend, burg - basically s/o to the bwl crew & some on misha + other servers. yrie for obvious reasons. loads of others worth mentioning but you can't forget your day 1s
Original
100% GCD Hacker
If you think that I am a bad rogue, k your opinion.
If you think that it's ok to use consumables, k your opinion.
If you don't like me because I afkd 2 games and didn't like it, k your opinion.
If you don't like me because I killed you too many times in gulch, k I respect that.
But if you think a player is BAD because they DON'T use consumables, your just lost and brain dead. The idea that you need to use consumables to be useful to your team and that it makes you "good", then I don't mind being bad. If you are actually serious and aren't trolling and that a players skill is determined every 2 minuted when his swift pot is up, then I don't think you know what skill means. I'm actually at a lose for words that people are so twisted to think this way. If you want to use all those consumables to cover for your mistakes and lack of awareness/positioning and call that good idk what to say. I can't even get the consumables that Recluse and Xc, nor do I want to use them. I actually respected you Petyr, idc if you like me or not, but if you think what makes a good rogue is using consumables nonstop idk what to say. [MENTION=25100]Leek[/MENTION] [MENTION=20463]Petyr[/MENTION] [MENTION=17375]LennywBoreanTundra[/MENTION]
If you think that it's ok to use consumables, k your opinion.
If you don't like me because I afkd 2 games and didn't like it, k your opinion.
If you don't like me because I killed you too many times in gulch, k I respect that.
But if you think a player is BAD because they DON'T use consumables, your just lost and brain dead. The idea that you need to use consumables to be useful to your team and that it makes you "good", then I don't mind being bad. If you are actually serious and aren't trolling and that a players skill is determined every 2 minuted when his swift pot is up, then I don't think you know what skill means. I'm actually at a lose for words that people are so twisted to think this way. If you want to use all those consumables to cover for your mistakes and lack of awareness/positioning and call that good idk what to say. I can't even get the consumables that Recluse and Xc, nor do I want to use them. I actually respected you Petyr, idc if you like me or not, but if you think what makes a good rogue is using consumables nonstop idk what to say. [MENTION=25100]Leek[/MENTION] [MENTION=20463]Petyr[/MENTION] [MENTION=17375]LennywBoreanTundra[/MENTION]
Petyr
no lackin
i'm not saying that i don't respect you - especially when i don't even play this game and i've only been in your games a handful of times - nor am i arguing that you need to use consumables to be a "good" player. there are many players who i have respected that have shunned consumables - yet, i am claiming that doing so decreases effectiveness.
using consumables will allow you to contribute more to your team. bottom line. i don't know whether or not you use them, nor do i care - that is irrelevant, and i'm basing this off of the thread's discussion. if a player is solo queueing a game without consumables, especially as a rogue, he should expect to contribute far less than an equally geared/skilled rogue using them - this is a fact created due to the restrictions of the class at this level.
consumables enable players in this bracket to play at FAR greater efficiency - i would know, considering that i had 5k+ swiftthistle stocked on my rogue. what i am arguing is not that your skill as a player is determinant on using them - instead, i am arguing that that there is no relation between "not using consumables" and "greater skill" - something that people above me in this thread seem to be stressing. it's quite possibly one of the most moronic arguments possible - going along with the idea of f2p having more "skill" for playing with restrictions. that is a choice of the player - if they want to gimp themselves and underperform (compared to if they had used consumables), then they can feel free to do so. the idea of "skill" in this bracket is also quite ridiculous, which i will comment on below.
this is a pvp bracket. in random bgs, your one goal is to win - gimping yourself is fine but you should not expect a greater increase in respect from people, and/or the image of more "skill," for playing as so. it's level 20-29. this is low level pvp, and no matter how much people enjoy circlejerking on here, it's a total fucking joke and should be seen as nothing other than such. there is a natural skill cap due to class restrictions, and given common sense that comes with having played this game for an extended period of time, two equally geared players should perform equally well - i noticed this throughout my recent bgs, playing with all of the rogues mentioned in this thread. consumables offer an edge to players in this situation - for example, why adapt to the shit tier mobility of rogues when you can instead blow swift pots on cd? this increases effectiveness, and in return increases the contribution of the player - there is no other way to look at it. so, given two equally geared and "skilled" (at pressing 2 buttons) players - one using consumables, and one not - the one who uses consumables should always perform better. if you can still manage to perform well, good for you, yet there is no reason to be doing so and that should not be celebrated when that isn't playing to the highest potential achievable - which is only obtainable with consumables.
to clarify on the meaning of perform, i'm obviously talking in terms of objective play, as there is no excuse for not doing well if you're popping gliders and pots on cd. this can present the image of "skill" or "playing better" to the one who uses consumables, and this is a statement that i do agree with - whoever contributes the most to their team is the better player. if you can still manage to contribute as much as someone using consumables, then go the fuck ahead and ignore them - you might receive more respect from some people for being able to do so. yet, once again, it all comes down to efficiency - why even put yourself in that situation to begin with? combine a "good" player with consumables and you will receive better results, leading to easier games & less time wasted in each bg.
looking at it, maybe i am trolling. i used to take the moral high ground in these cases all of the time as a f2p - yet, after returning to this bracket and realizing that no players stand out anymore due to how widespread enchants + consumable usage is, there's really no debate on this case. it's low level pvp. classes have restrictions. consumables relieve these restrictions, enabling for more effective performance & easier wins. that is what matters in the end.
therefore, i will claim that those who use consumables are better players - yet not necessarily more "skilled" - in my mind. they generally contribute more per game, thereby wasting less of my time per game by killing efcs and performing far better in non-CTF bgs. the idea of "skill" of any form does not even come to my mind when i think about the current state of the bracket, given that it is now p2p dominated and generally a complete shitfest unless you're geared + playing a solid class. i would assume that anyone with a geared character is equally "skilled" at pressing the three buttons needed to global someone.
this concept can best be seen in av - my personal favorite bg in the bracket at the moment. unlike wsg, there is no "two shot the efc" main objective. instead, you can decide to play objectively via defending - generally a better idea if you don't use consumables - or tag along in midfighting the shit out of the enemy team, which is usually how bgs are won. the player who can land assists + kbs in said fight will therefore contribute more than those who don't - which can be further heightened by consumable usage. players that exemplify this include miltrav - forever the #1 bm monk - and recluse, myself, and others who contribute high dmg/kbs in group fights. they are carrying their teams, like it or not - class is therefore also dependent in this argument. is the bm monk who can keg his way to 60-0 better than the rogue who manages 50-1? not necessarily, for obvious reasons, therefore i would argue that you should also factor class into whether or not you want to be seen as a "good" player by certain players' definitions.
an affliction lock who can go 9-2 in this bracket at the moment might be playing equally well as the monk going 40-1. yet, this does not mean that the weaker class is more "skilled," or deserving of more respect, given the differences in class abilities. you also need to take into consideration different ways of "contributing" in objective play - after hitting the 50 defend achieve i never went back to another tower, because why do so? that's less potential hks and kbs, which are the only thing that mattered to my playstyle - fuck winning when you already have all of the reps done, at that point you're playing just to 2 shot people. with this same logic, why play a weaker class when you can contribute far more to your team while rolling fotm? i guess some people do play them for "fun," although that concept is lost on me when clothies get 2 shot by anything these days.
people play for different reasons. some to win, some for a challenge, some to top kbs, some to fuck around & intentionally throw games. some play due to the desire to be seen as "skilled." obviously, this argument would have to be further expanded to include for all of these groups, but in summary - consumables allow for more effectiveness, therefore increasing the performance of a player in the commonly-accepted goal of "winning," allowing them to be argued for as "better" due to their higher contributions to winning said game.
but in the reality of this post: this bracket is a complete fucking joke at the moment, although it has always been seen as such - and due to this lack of diversity, or equality among class specs, the players in this bracket must obviously decide on how they wish to play - by focusing on rogue in this case, the general assessment is that "consumables=better," which can be argued for every other class if wanted.
with that said - i personally couldn't care less if someone does or does not use them, given that i am usually playing to assert my character's dominance by hitting ambush and watching shit die. if you don't use them, and are on the enemy team, cool - easier kills for me. if you do, in the case of recluse & others, this generally fucks up my day when i'm dealing with antivenom users. but cool, i respect that too, as you're maximizing your own performance. yet, generally, most players in this bracket still care about winning and objective play, meaning that it's usually a good idea to be using consumables if you have them available. the most frequent argument against them that i saw, at least as f2p, is that people were too lazy to farm them - with the current p2p-dominated bracket, there are no more excuses for this. you can therefore be expected to do so, and the "better" players are generally the ones who are able to contribute the most due to this advantage.
am i trolling? maybe. yet, i do believe these points are valid and my base argument is that in wsg - the most commonly played bg in this bracket - the better players will always be those who use consumables, if all other variables are kept constant. yet, some may perceive concepts such as "better" or "skillfulness" differently, depending on their personal playstyles and motives for playing - so in reality, the main argument here is that people should chill the fuck out and play the game however they want without making asinine claims about "skill' in a bracket where you require very little class knowledge to perform well. then again, hey, good for them - they take a low level pvp bracket in a video game seriously. you do you, people of the internet.
Petyr
no lackin
the long-awaited sequel to "why this bracket is garbage" - i'm a fan of that one as well.
s/o to the BH fam