lvl29 Twink in BG?

[Epichealtime]

Again, I don't do this, but what else are you gonna do with obsolete twinks? I certainly don't see this as any less honorable than a 20 vet, who just eliminates xp a different way for essentially the same advantage.

I certainly wouldnt be turning them into disposables. Who knows what the future holds for the segregation of the xp on and off brackets? And it isnt "essentially the same advantage". 20s get to hold onto their gear and enchants, while 29s don't but have more powerful gear/abilities.

 

[Blackberryy]

Just encountered a few lvl28/29 twinks with ilvl33/32 socketed dungeon gear set in lvl20 bg. How is it possible? Xpoff bug again?

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/character/us/Crushridge/Istik

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/character/us/Darkspear/Prôdîgy

Friends of mine, they are leveling, not using a bug.

As someone who doesn't BG all that often, and is confused at the apparent double standard here, can someone please explain how this is significantly different than locking your xp via letting your sub expire at level 20?

At least there is a hard limit to how many times these folks can do it, and you can no longer duplicate this type of character as the raids and heroic dungeons now require level 30. Where as level 20 vets get to permanently reign relatively supreme in the bracket while just using a different method to eliminate XP.

Disagree with me all you want, but getting upset about this seems incredibly hypocritical IMHO. Maybe try an attitude adjustment and see them more as a rarespawn and unique challenge to test your hard earned skills against.

Again, I don't do this, but what else are you gonna do with obsolete twinks? I certainly don't see this as any less honorable than a 20 vet, who just eliminates xp a different way for essentially the same advantage.

Fun way to go out with a bang before you turn your 27/29 into a level 30 raid twink if you ask me.

And it's just the mostly washed out community's way of trying to bottleneck force everyone to play the same way.

 

[Grahamdab]

Dude, Blackberryy, your rogue is sick! I'm jealous.

 

[Chops]

As someone who doesn't BG all that often, and is confused at the apparent double standard here, can someone please explain how this is significantly different than locking your xp via letting your sub expire at level 20?

At least there is a hard limit to how many times these folks can do it, and you can no longer duplicate this type of character as the raids and heroic dungeons now require level 30. Where as level 20 vets get to permanently reign relatively supreme in the bracket while just using a different method to eliminate XP.

Disagree with me all you want, but getting upset about this seems incredibly hypocritical IMHO. Maybe try an attitude adjustment and see them more as a rarespawn and unique challenge to test your hard earned skills against.

Again, I don't do this, but what else are you gonna do with obsolete twinks? I certainly don't see this as any less honorable than a 20 vet, who just eliminates xp a different way for essentially the same advantage.

Fun way to go out with a bang before you turn your 27/29 into a level 30 raid twink if you ask me.

This is an exhausting conversation but let me see if I can make it clear

There seem to be two conflating issues here though, so lets separate those. I (and most people) have no issue with someone who has an old twink that got squished to an odd level and decided to level out of the bracket in one last hurrah of pvp. A fitting goodbye to an old friend, I say. Have fun.

What people take issue with are folks exploiting into xp-on BGs with the XP-off debuff and twinking anew every level or so.

Blizzard very obviously desires a game in which xp-off players and xp-on players are separated in instanced pvp. This is the intended and repeatedly stated aim of their game design. Exploiting your way around that is kinda scummy. Especially when folks do it in like... 19s. At least in 20-29s they have to contend with premades of 20s.

The difference between this and vets or f2ps is that vets and f2ps are intended. Its how the game is supposed to work. Blizzard has repeatedly shown themselves to be not only aware of but ok with vets and f2p twinks. Even going so far as to, at one point, having a whole tree of their automated customer service page built around getting vets xp turned back on without game time.

Twinks who xp-off glitch explicitly to gain that huge advantage over other players are exploiting. Exploiting to gain advantages over other players is scumbag shit and scumbags doing scumbag shit will be called scumbags. Because there's little else really to do about it.

Except, I guess, just hope that blizzard fixes it eventually. Took them damn near a decade to fix the last one though soooooo

 

[Grahamdab]

Thanks for the detailed reply Chops, also please note I did not specify F2P in this, that's about the most honorable hardcore way I can think of playing, no qualms there. Just comparing to vets.

As someone who obviously plays BGs way more than I do, what do you feel gives these players the biggest advantage? the additional abilities you get at 27-29 or the ~3-4 item levels they have over the best geared vets? Or does the combination of the two just push it to unfair levels when compared to just vets vs levers?

 

[Chops]

what do you feel gives these players the biggest advantage? the additional abilities you get at 27-29

A combination of abilities and gear. I mean, your best geared F2Ps (and vets) are gonna be hovering in the ilvl 29-30 area (like me, with an ilvl 49 arti and 44 neck). Most are going to be closer to ilvl 25-26. Dungeon gear at level 25 is like ilvl 31. so by the time you're clearing lvl 27, 28... thats not nothing.

Plus lots of classes get *huge* abilities between 20 and 30. Namely, level 25 talents. Double crusader fury warriors are annoying enough, yea? now give them stormbolt. free whirlwind. rank 2 rampage. zerker rage. etc.

"but Chops, this could be true of just levelers too!" and it is. and a modestly skilled leveler with some enchanted heirlooms can really put it to some folks. Even twinks. I've seen dungeon geared, mid 20s leveled players do some fun things.

The *big* difference is that locking your xp and running multiple dungeons every couple of levels to get the very best gear and then queing BGs is labor intensive enough that if you're going to level out in a dozen games or so, its not worth it. But if you exploit in, the labor cost becomes reasonable since youll be playing hundreds of games.

And because doing that requires exploiting, they KNOW nobody else in that BG is going to be close to them in terms of gear or abilities. Its not like old times when queing on a 29 meant queing with and into multiple 29 twinks. They know theyre going to be the only one there. Its what theyre going for.

 

[Merlin]

what do you feel gives these players the biggest advantage? the additional abilities you get at 27-29 or the ~3-4 item levels they have over the best geared vets?

Some of these 27s are fully loaded with 5/6 str or intel/stam gems.. Giving them over 6k health in the 20-29 bracket and having 2 times more primary stats than vet/f2p.. THAT'S the scary part, it's completely different from using the 4armor/6stam gems.. if the 27/29 do not have these gems, the scaling of the 20 in the bg would have close the gap with 29, making the 29 having no advantage or only very little, I don't see what much can a 27/29 do in a bg with tons of highly geared 20s, it's embarrassing to send in a 29 and get wack by the 20s
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The *big* difference is that locking your xp and running multiple dungeons every couple of levels to get the very best gear and then queing BGs is labor intensive enough that if you're going to level out in a dozen games or so, its not worth it.

It's both labour and resource intensive (every single toon needs 2 full prof and one of them is engineering), I am using this method since the start of this expansion, making full use of ROTP plus dungeon scaling runs. The result is extremely good in the 10-19 bags (I have yet to start any in the 20s so I don't know what's the outcome, but I have 12 lvl23 toons getting geared slowly atm), and most importantly it's legit. Anyone who wants to do this needs to have a lot of time and a lot of mats/gold on their hands.

 

[toskosa]

Because its an exploit and you shouldn't condone cheating, like my old 60's and 70s are shelved right now because no games. I am not going to abuse an exploit just to pvp on them because its wrong, Chops is 100% spot on about this issue....I would love to whip out my old 60 twink's but I refuse to exploit to do so so it kinda bugs me when other players have 0 issue breaking the rules like that.

 

[accel]

Exp reduced debuff is not an exploit. Yeah, a level 27/28/29 will pwn your level 20, tough luck. Roll one yourself if you want.

Exp-off debuff (no exp at all) in an exp-on bg is an exploit.

The rule of what is fine vs what isn't is very simple. If something is readily available in the game, can be used easily and openly, and Blizzard don't ban for it, then (a) this is fine, and (b) if this provides an advantage, we are all going to use it (if that makes level 20 players including vet / f2p ones hopelessly weak in their bracket, so be it). Otherwise, (a) this isn't fine, and (b) we cannot use it because we will be banned, and people who are using it will get reported so that they are banned and cannot get the advantages.

 

[RiverpawGrinder]

Friends of mine, they are leveling, not using a bug.

For the rogue, i think not a leveler. I guess one need to deliberately farm the dungeon gear set at around lvl28. For one thing, it is unlikely one can find the full set at a particular item level from the AH if u are just leveling.
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[toskosa]

Exp reduced debuff is not an exploit. Yeah, a level 27/28/29 will pwn your level 20, tough luck. Roll one yourself if you want.

Exp-off debuff (no exp at all) in an exp-on bg is an exploit.

The rule of what is fine vs what isn't is very simple. If something is readily available in the game, can be used easily and openly, and Blizzard don't ban for it, then (a) this is fine, and (b) if this provides an advantage, we are all going to use it (if that makes level 20 players including vet / f2p ones hopelessly weak in their bracket, so be it). Otherwise, (a) this isn't fine, and (b) we cannot use it because we will be banned, and people who are using it will get reported so that they are banned and cannot get the advantages.

Saronite bomb bug for icc was readily available for the game and yet the raid that used it to return the platforms were banned. Will blizz ban you for this? I highly doubt it, it is probably so low on their radar that we can expect a comment on it in 2023 earliest and that's just a comment not a fix. I still say you should be wary doing it though, like I have been suspended for way less...like going off the map in av when grappling hook was introduced.

 

[accel]

Saronite bomb bug for icc was readily available for the game and yet the raid that used it to return the platforms were banned.

We both know that these things are different (even though Blizzard themselves don't seem to know sometimes and act bizarrely). The bombs were used in the world race. If they were used in some stupid #500 kill, they'd have banned one-two guys using these bombs for a short period of time and that would be the end of it, or maybe they wouldn't have banned anyone and just fixed it silently.

The exp-off debuff in an exp-on bg is an exploit because in order to achieve it, you have to jump through quite some hoops. The exp-reduced debuff on the other hand is achieved quite easily, and is sometimes happening naturally without your intention. The exp-reduced debuff is simply not an exploit.

Just in case, there is at least one major bug apart from exp-off affecting level 20 bgs currently that seems to be gaining traction (the trinket one). That's what should be rooted out, not this exp-reduced stuff which is legit and buys you a couple of wins for quite a bit of time and effort.

 

[Chops]

If something is readily available in the game, can be used easily and openly, and Blizzard don't ban for it, then (a) this is fine

Every bug is in the game and most are readily available and every single one of them is used without blizzard banning people... until blizzard starts banning people. The easter egg gold dupe one comes to mind immediately. The original xp-off glitch with the button clicking script was in the game for years, across multiple xpacs, was readily accessible, easy to do and for a long long time blizzard never fixed it or punished people for using it. Until they did.

That doesnt make it not an exploit or "ok". It's abusing a bug and exploiting for an advantage over other players. Thats like people who say "its only illegal if you get caught" which... not how it works.

If you want to glitch and exploit around and think its fun, then by all means. Just dont go getting all whiny about it when people call you out on the scumbag behavior. You know exactly what you're doing. Own it.

 

[accel]

I see what you did there, so just for the record, I am playing on level 20, not 27-28-29.

We disagree on exp-reduced being an exploit. And frankly, I agree with the other guy who said that it is hypocritical to be calling it an exploit while getting into exp-on bgs via a technicality of not being able to get levels due to not paying. But this all isn't very important. Blizzard will set the record straight over time de-facto.

 

[Asylum]

I agree with the other guy who said that it is hypocritical to be calling it an exploit while getting into exp-on bgs via a technicality of not being able to get levels due to not paying.

F2P lvl 20s who don't get XP is an intentional move on Blizzard's part

XP debuff that allows subbed players to effectively play xpoff in an xpon bracker on a lvl 29 toon (with a kit & equipment that Bliz deems not to be "trial-status-appropriate") is not an intentional move on Blizzard's part, but an exploit of independent game mechanics that were combined to work together in the XP debuffing exploit

thus: calling it hypocrisy is a bit of a stretch

 

[Chops]

We disagree on exp-reduced being an exploit.

youre splitting hairs over the xp-off and xp-reduced, as well as playing semantic games with the term "exploit" to make a very tenuous argument.

I agree with the other guy who said that it is hypocritical.

i disagree. F2P/vets maximize their toons within the understood and accepted limits of their account restrictions and within the framework of blizzards intended game design. They step into a BG knowing that they'll find others at/above their power level.

People who abuse/exploit/bug/finesse/whatever-you-call-it the xp-off/reduction buffs are not doing that. They're purposefully manipulating the game to achieve a significant advantage over others because they know when they enter a BG that they're going to be alone at the top because few others are willing to exploit like they are.

The italicized part is the difference.

 

[accel]

F2P lvl 20s who don't get XP is an intentional move on Blizzard's part

Correct. As is F2P lvl 20s being able to participate in bgs.

But vet lvl 20s pwning everyone in the bracket hard isn't. It's just one of the many imbalances that exist because Blizzard are inept. That's it. That's why it's hypocritical to complain about exp-reduced level 27-28-29, because they are so powerful. Vets being as powerful as they are is as much intended as exp-reduced guys being powerful is intended (which is: not intended).

I don't think it's productive to continue this discussion though. I heard nothing at all that would convince me that there is a difference (quite the opposite, some of the things said point to them being exactly the same, ie, yours above, if dug deeper). I don't think I will be able to convince you or anyone else either. We agree on exp-off debuff in exp-on bgs being an exploit. Let's agree to disagree on the other one.
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youre splitting hairs over the xp-off and xp-reduced, as well as playing semantic games with the term "exploit" to make a very tenuous argument.

They are completely different.

For a very simple example, the italicized part that you say is the difference between these things and vet being in level 20 exp-on bgs does not apply to exp-reduced debuff at all.

 

[Chops]

They are completely different.

in how theyre executed? yes. In their effect and use? not really.

Don't ignore the bulk of that post to focus on a small detail because you know whats happening doesnt have any justification beyond "we exploit because we can and want to"

 

[accel]

I expanded above. No, exp-reduced level 27+s aren't common in bgs not because "they know when they enter a BG that they're going to be alone at the top because few others are willing to exploit like they are". They are uncommon because it isn't worth gearing up that much only to pass the bracket in a relatively low amount of games in the end. It's simpler to gear a level 20. Make gearing up a level 27-28-29 simple and you will have crowds of them and nobody at all will fear being banned for the supposed exploit. Because there is no exploit. Unlike with exp-off debuff.

 

[Chops]

Because there is no exploit. Unlike with exp-off debuff.

this is what you keep returning to because you know trying to draw a distinction between xp-off and xp-reduced is the only thing your argument can hang on.

And its just bullshit. And you know it. It's a distinction without a difference but its one youre trying to highlight because one is exploiting an actual bug in the code while the other is exploiting the mechanics of a debuff beyond its intended use to create gameplay blizzard expressly wants to prevent.

But hey, I guess Im gonna just let this one go. Im not interested in repeating myself more than I already have and you seem deadset on white knighting for exploiting scumbags so... have a good one I guess