Its a Enhance Shammy!

[Alteffour]

You really want me to call out specific names? Grow up. I personally think one could work, although I think its really much more of a niche roll where usually having a real healer or a better dpser is a much better choice. The situations where Spellhance specifically is the best bet are generally not found in premades. Spellhance is more of a tank sorta build (like SL lock for example) and is best suited for Arena or some pug wsg use.



If you want to talk about other specs or gear setups sure we can do that too.



2h as you yourself have stated is both relativly bad at mana efficiency (which means it cannot support the team as well or for as long) and it cant really support heal at all. You CAN get really big burst I guess, assuming your premade group is cool relying on RNG for flag returns and is cool with giving up a spot that a hunter or rogue or something is currently filling. Real 2h can also be somewhat squishy.



Elemental can actually DPS pretty well, and has some ability to be a support healer (although this shuts down its dps substantially) Again though we look at the dps of elemental, who is somewhat squishy if players get in close, and who can have los issues and we have to compare it to the DPS that you could have instead (say another hunter or whatever)





There has never been a question of "is this useable" sure...every class is useable but when it comes down to building a proper 10 man I find it very hard to consider anything outside of resto (as say an offensive healer) as anywhere on the top of my list of things to bring along. Shamans can bring a LOT of utility to a team, but you have to consider what they can do beyond the utility that makes them useful for your premade.

 

[Grodala]

As a spellhance shaman in WSG, your main goal is to be on offense. You will be providing the following:

1. offensive purging on the flag carrier

2. interrupts on nearby healers

3. average dps and lots of frostshocks/earthbinds on the flag carrier itself

4. heals and cleanses for your nearby allies (I recommend getting grid)

5. totems for everyone! make sure you put down the correct totems. I tend to spam earth totems all day long, just make sure you don't accidentally throw down an earthbind right as a priest's fear is ready.

6. ???

7. Profit.

 

[Rivfader]

well I've never healed before so whats the most user-friendly addon. The in game nameplats gets frustrating at times lol

 

[joaq]

try either healbot or grid/ clique combo

 

[Alteffour]

offensive purging on the flag carrier

2. interrupts on nearby healers

3. average dps and lots of frostshocks/earthbinds on the flag carrier itself

4. heals and cleanses for your nearby allies (I recommend getting grid)

5. totems for everyone! make sure you put down the correct totems. I tend to spam earth totems all day long, just make sure you don't accidentally throw down an earthbind right as a priest's fear is ready.

6. ???

7. Profit.

A resto shaman on offense can provide all of these as well..The point being that why take up a solid DPS spot with an "average dps"? I guess as a "support healer/dps?" But my point remains the same...any shaman spec can do what you just listed, so you might as well bring one that specializes in something other than tanking. For pug WSG though you are totally correct, a spellhance shammy can be effective in a lot of situations, but it is still not optimal for premades imo.

 

[Sockdolager]

"For premades there are a good portion of people who still think only an actual resto build is viable."

who?

You really want me to call out specific names? Grow up.

well I certainly don't want you using Weasel word - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia to boost your argument.



I believe spellhance is the best for 10v10s based on my own experience. for everything Grod said (and frozen power which is amazing against mobile flag carriers or against the dps that are defending). The heals are comparable to resto - and substantial in the role of off healer. Additionally switching in a 2h transforms you from support/flex into a DPS burst. pretty great. Additionally You can main heal in certain situations with a resto gear swap.



Resto is definitely more one dementional. You can cast lbs but you don't have elemental reach or shorter cast times or shorter shock cds (or frozen power). spellhance gets the benefit of all the +damage melee talents. ALso I think spellhance is better for flag clicks as they'll be up on the flag in melee range, a resto will be back tossing lbs more than not.

 

[Alteffour]

The heals are comparable to resto -

look...ill be the first to argue the healing potential of spellhance...ive written about it at length in fact.



but that statement is pretty bad overall. Maybe if you mean simply individual heals? But overall healing effectivness....no, just...no.

frozen power which is amazing against mobile flag carriers or against the dps that are defending

Frozen power is awesome yes, however your team should be getting plenty of cc from other sources and you still have earthbind and frost shock as snares as resto (or any shammy spec for that matter)

Additionally switching in a 2h transforms you from support/flex into a DPS burst

If your team likes relying on melee based RNG for its kills, sure...Resto can even add damage in if needed through casts (NS even for bursty burst) and shocks and totems as well, it might not have the RNG burst of a 2h with wf, but thats not the point.

Additionally You can main heal in certain situations with a resto gear swap.

You could...but it would not be an optimal situation and losing out on knockback and instant big heals is a big big loss. The mana is also not as efficient as spellhance if you get forced into this situation.

spellhance gets the benefit of all the +damage melee talents.

True but you are comparing spellhance as a dps with some off healing ability to resto which doesnt fit...resto doenst need any +damage melee talents. Besides, this is kinda a bigger debate about how spellhance approaches situations. Depending on the FC involved melee might not even be the best approach of the shammy.

ALso I think spellhance is better for flag clicks as they'll be up on the flag in melee range,

lol, so then casters and healers (hunters for that matter) are bad because its harder for them to click on offense? good argument.











Look, its not a question of whether any of these specs are good or useful or not...Spellhance is undoubtedly a good spec...I am one of the biggest proponents of it and was before it seems like now everybody is spellhance. However I also recognize that under MOST situations they are not optimal in a premade.



I stated a while back that I thought they could excell on offense in that kinda off healing, team support sorta role...which I still believe they could, however at this point I am not so sure that they are really the best use of a spot on a 10 man.





As far as calling out names, I will say this, I am not going to specifically list names of people because A: most of them dont read or post on this site and B: calling people out is pretty lame. Ill tell you that it was people on Jaedenar, and it was from a variety of people from various battlegroups not just Cyclone or Ruin or Reckoning or what have you.

 

[Sockdolager]

Quote:

Additionally switching in a 2h transforms you from support/flex into a DPS

burst

If your team likes relying on melee based RNG for its kills, sure...Resto can even add damage in if needed through casts (NS even for bursty burst) and shocks and totems as well, it might not have the RNG burst of a 2h with wf, but thats not the point.

-I think we can agree that a 10s team "relying" on windfury to return a flag is different than a 10s team benefitting from it.

-I don't believe WF possibly every 3 seconds is comparable to a 2 minute cooldown usually reserved for healing (since that is a resto shamans role) for the sake of offensive capabilities

lol, so then casters and healers (hunters for that matter) are bad because its harder for them to click on offense? good argument.

Logical Fallacies Weak Analogy

Logical Fallacies Red Herring

However I also recognize that under MOST situations [spellhance shamans] they are not optimal in a premade.

Logical Fallacies Subjectivist Fallacy

As far as calling out names... I am not going to specifically list names of people because A: most of them dont read or post on this site and B: calling people out is pretty lame.

I don't think listing other people who also ascribe to your opinion of resto being the best spec for 10v10s is calling anyone out; I think it's citing your sources.



If you like resto better than spellhance in 10v10s that's great (and valid); however representing an opinion as a fact is misleading to people who have no experience or are seeking information instead of opinion.

 

[Alteffour]

I am giving reasons why in an optimal 10s comp spellhance doesnt fit...all you are doing is saying "well it could work cause of so and so reason"



sure is COULD work...any class/spec COULD work in 10s....that is not the point, the point is that spellhance isnt "best in slot" for any given 10s. My argument is that the only spec that could theorhetically fit that 10s spot would be resto for OPTIMAL play. You also have to concede that we are assuming equal skill and gear and what have you.

Logical Fallacies Weak Analogy

Logical Fallacies Red Herring

How? You are the one that said that a spellhance shammy is good cause he can click the flag..............I brought up several cases where classes arent in that position to click....now...you can call my rebuttal bad if you want, but then you would have to say that your original comment was even worse.

representing an opinion as a fact is misleading to people who have no experience or are seeking information instead of opinion.

I have stated a number of times that I think they could all work (just not optimally) I am not misleading anybody. My information comes from a long time of playing shaman and playing in premades. Saying individual names also wouldnt help "people who have no experience" anyways because they wouldnt know the people anyways. You want names so you can either flame me or them, which isnt going to happen. If you want clues look in my sig at the bottom of this post and check out the guilds listed and go from there.



The argument is not "is spellhance good" the argument is "why would I put spellhance in my 10s over X dps class or X healer" I still have seen 0 reasonable answers to that question. Saying he can CC means nothing since other classes can CC, saying he can purge when a resto shammy or any type of priest can do the same, is not a viable answer. Why should I take this "jack or all trades" "utility" class into my 10s when a different combination of classes can do the job as good or better?

 

[Grodala]

Because although resto can outheal a spellhance shaman, the other utility that it brings adds much more to offensive flag returning.

 

[Alteffour]

the only utility I see that spellhance has that resto does not is frozen power, that by itself isnt enough reason...and remember, we arent talking about spellhance VS resto...we are talking about why spellhance would get a spot on a premade team at all.



Resto could maybe get a spot as the primary healer on O..it fits...



Spellhance would get a spot over what in that O though is what I want to know...what would you give up to put spellhance in?

 

[Rivfader]

The fact remains that I got ASKED by my guild to play enh and I'm looking for helpful information on it, I'd appreciate it if we could get back on topic . . . That being said I really do appreciate all the help I've been getting so far.



Mostly from the XP BGs I've been doing it seems my role is to control the BG. I'll melee casters, interrupt healers, and kite melee cause I really can't stand up to rogue burst atm. EB and frozen power is great against druid FCs. My question is how much does this change in actual twink BGs?

 

[Alteffour]

this 2h enhance or spellhance?



EDIT: reread it, regular enhance





Your role is to get lucky with wf crits. Yes there is some utility involved there, but basically you hit things hard at random times and that is what you do...spam purge while you wait for RNG.



Think it was sockdolager that just made a vid of it..you should check it out, even though its mostly arenas I think.

 

[Ehrui]

Babysit healers, in short.

 

[Rivfader]

well actually I've been BGing spellhance cause RNG pisses me off most times but I oom real fast unless something is beating on me.

 

[Grodala]

Don't even bother listening to Lunar.



He is only here because he believes in running perfect 10v10 comps with 6 hunters, and doesn't think that you should put in a shaman where a hunter could be there instead.

 

[Kirise]

Wow, I sure missed out some fun over here! To the OP, if you're considering spellhance, hopefully the following comparison will help you determine a playstyle that works for you. Otherwise, skip this post.



My quick two cents: think of spellhance as more of an offense-focused caster, and resto as more of a protection focused caster. Spellhance capitalizes on the survivability of shamans, and really emphasizes utility: shocks, interrupts, purges, totems...the works. Spellhance shaman choose gear and talent not to burst, but to push the tide of the whole team. Grodala had a fantastic spellhance gearset if you can talk him into logging out while wearing it. Resto shamans make for great escorts, as they primarily heal. They can do everything spellhance shamans can (although not quite as well in some cases), but the resto talent of reduced pushback while under attack and healing bonuses let resto shamans have more healing output, as well as preventative damage.



To oversimplify, spellhance shamans like to wear down a few opponents at once, to set up the kills for teammates. Resto shamans like to reduce the wear on a few teammates at once.



Hopefully that perspective will show you both the similarities of caster shamans, as well as the specific differences that a spellhance shaman can bring to the table if you decide to go that route instead of a melee enhance shaman.



As for whether or not a particular build makes sense in a given group composition, I suppose you'll get a lot of opinions here about that, and I don't feel qualified to add to that. That said, if we're this passionate about the details of shamans, then that might say something about how much fun we think they are. But I'm heavily, heavily biased about that, so beware.



Bwappo

 

[Rivfader]

Lol, I've got to say your description of spellhance basically sums up what I've been seeing. Hard to 1v1 damage classes but pretty easy to 2v5 if I have a rogue/war/hunter with eme. It's fun!

 

[Alteffour]

Don't even bother listening to Lunar.



He is only here because he believes in running perfect 10v10 comps with 6 hunters, and doesn't think that you should put in a shaman where a hunter could be there instead.

I apologize if theorycrafting up a proper 10 man is not fair to your class of choice grodala.



I also think that you can get away with only something like 3 or 4 hunters in normal situations ;p In this bracket at least...6 is probably minimum for 19s and 29s lol



But I like your rationale for not listening to me. I think youre just hurt that the rest of the guild wasnt on your side when we talked about this in game.



Ill say again...you can bring just about any type of shaman to a 10s match...will it work? It might, especially if its a really talented player playing it. But there is almost always going to be a better class to take that Shaman's spot assuming skill is equal.



@ Bwappo

if we're this passionate about the details of shamans, then that might say something about how much fun we think they are

There are few threads on this site that bring out more walls of text and lots of pages of info that arent shaman threads ;p