How to Balance 19s - v2.0

Warlock

Howl of Terror over Death Coil, I would say.

Sacrifice to Voidwalker.

Axetoss to Felguard.



Paladin

Long Arm of the Law and Judgement of the Bold swap places in the Retribution talent tree - Won't happen because that's their source of mana replenish as dpsn, like enhancement with primal wisdom (or w/e it's called).



Druid

Ravage would be real nice.

Buffing Regrowth would affect endgame druids as it is. Giving them Lifebloom at least would be nice.

Wrath and Starfire damage is getting buffed. Let's see how those turn out first before making changes in balance tree.



Hunter

Concussive shot just needs a larger cooldown, remove disengage.



Shaman

Healing surge is nice.



Priest

would make disc priests less viable if using dispel magic on their bubbles.
 
i have a NE 19 f-druid.



with them having a slow "infected wound" i destroy rogues. mangle is rather hard hitting also imo.



giving them a skull bash.....which is a intercept, along with ravage which is a ambush they would be over the top.



i didn't even bother reading the wall of text after just seeing that.



hunters no disengane would be easy for my druid once they a cripple slowed
 
notoriousthf said:
Warlock

Howl of Terror over Death Coil, I would say.

Sacrifice to Voidwalker.

Axetoss to Felguard.



Paladin

Long Arm of the Law and Judgement of the Bold swap places in the Retribution talent tree - Won't happen because that's their source of mana replenish as dpsn, like enhancement with primal wisdom (or w/e it's called).



Druid

Ravage would be real nice.

Buffing Regrowth would affect endgame druids as it is. Giving them Lifebloom at least would be nice.

Wrath and Starfire damage is getting buffed. Let's see how those turn out first before making changes in balance tree.



Hunter

Concussive shot just needs a larger cooldown, remove disengage.



Shaman

Healing surge is nice.



Priest

would make disc priests less viable if using dispel magic on their bubbles.



I agree with most of these except you shouldn't just give shamans Healing Surge without any other changes and call it a day.



Balance doesn't need much of a damage change as they do survivability. I think I can speak for 85s when I say that Regrowth doesn't heal for as much as a "flash heal" would, but they do have other abilities making Regrowth just a quick exspensive heal that you use every now and then. Maybe Lifebloom would be too much. I would almost suggest making it the way it was and switching Nourish with Healing Touch with level requirements like the way it used to be. This is taking other things in consideration, like an overall damage buff/nerf (whichever class needs what) and making a slow, big heal more viable for the bracket. Also not to mention, if you add Healing Touch instead of Nourish, it makes feral more viable survivability wise (which is exactly what feral DPS needs) if you spec into the instant cast nature talent. Also speaking of Feral DPS, if they do add Ravage, I would suggest them lowering the damage on it for anyone lower then level 80. Because it already does a high amount of burst at 85, I'd almost hate to see how much burst it would offer in the 19 bracket if they don't lower it to anything besides 900% weapon damage.



I agree that the change for Ret Paladin's talents would not take place, but Long Arm of the Law would be somewhat needed. As around these forums, I see alot of people mention that their mobility is not as good as other classes. I would almost want Hand of Freedom over Long Arm of the Law, though.
 
I like the changes you've listed to the warrior, but maybe to have some of those skills listed restricted to certain specs.



For example:



Arms;

Hamstring

Shattering Throw



Fury;

In-combat Charge

Bersker Stance (Only for the passive ability of being in berserker stance, no introduction of intercept or any other Berserker-stance only skills needed, however - all Battle-stance only skills can be used in Bersker stance)



Defensive;

Heroic Throw (Improved with a silence)

Shield Wall



I think with the introduction with the above mentioned changes, it'll give each spec a different play style, each with a bit more utility.
 
Some of you seem to have missed tha part where I said all the utility change suggestions I made were under the assumption that damage is balanced. I will obviously not be letting Ret's keep their rediculous damage and then buff their mobility for example. That would be absurd.



@This will make warriors OP.



With these changes the warrior will still be pretty limited, it's mobility will still be restricted to one combat charge every 30 seconds, it will not be able to pre generate rage to produce as powerful burst and currently its offensive utility is just a snare and mortal strike/shield slam dispel. Granted Arms has historically had powerful burst, and I think we can still incorporate that without making the class unbalanced while still giving it the utility it needs. I feel that both hamstring and intercept are absolutely essential for the warrior since it is no fun for anybody to be wailing around in a root for the majority of the fight. Their mobility will still be behind other classes.



I introduced Heroic Throw and Shield Wall so that the warrior has some way to either contribute to damage or keep itself alive when controlled. Without it the warrior is just too vulnerable to control imo. Hc Throw isn't too necessary, it was just something that I feel would benefit the class, making it more interesting to play. Shield Wall however is. It helps the warrior be more autonomous, something I would like to encourage in warrior, and it gives the warrior a tool it needs to be viable as a Flag Carrier. Remember that the warrior needs to drop into defensive stance to use it and thus cannot intercept or execute with it active.



@Healing Surge will be too powerful



I do understand that in it's current form it is way too powerful. Its trumps Flash of Light in mana cost and it has a damn high through put, but I do intend to address this. Remember, the numbers will be balanced later on, but first I would like to get the utility framework in place to build around. The fact of the matter is that all shaman specs need a survivability buff and resto cannot survive without Healing Surge. I therefore see it as vital that they get surge. If you can come up with an alternative then please suggest it.



@Rets don't need LAotL. Judgement of the Bold is too important.



Again, please remember that their damage and burst will be very much limited. Their damage is very closely proportional to their mobility and buffing mobility is going to buff their damage, so of course their damage will be reduced. I feel that a mobility buff is necessary since all range will have some sort of snare and gap maker and Rets will have an unfulfilling game style if they cannot reach their targets and cannot use their signature moves. HoJ and HoF do give some mobility, but I dont feel that this is enough.



I swapped LAotL for Judgement of the Bold since both are abilities that every ret will consider 100% mandatory and will therefore have no effect on endgame. I also changed it since FoL is a powerful tool in the hands of a Ret and having too much mana will potentially make ret too powerful. I do understand that being able to actually run out of mana is very undesirable however. What do you think about swapping LaotL for Sheath of Light instead?



@Nerfing damage accross the board without analysis is a bad idea



Of course it is. Before I suggest any damage scaling changes I will be deciding what I feel is the optimum amount of each ability to damage/heal/absorb etc on a fully BiS twink. I will then suggest nerfs to each individual ability accordingly in order to put it into perspective for Blizzard. That said, it may turn out that each ability needs a nerf of at least, for the sake of argument, 20%. In that case I would likely suggest a stealth buff for all characters below 60 or so that reduces damage taken by 20%. For now I'm just going to say that I have thought about this pretty hard and I am satisfied in my own mind. When I get the time I will write it up properly.



@Buffing regrowth (or X ability) will affect endgame



I do apologise, I failed to state earlier that any rescaling I intend to do at level 19 will follow the same rule as abilities like ambush and overpower do at the moment. They currently scale differently below 80 than they do above. I will be using the same principal. My aim here is to fix 19s without affecting endgame at all.



I do however dearly wish that I could introduce Lifebloom. Having dispel protection would be brilliant and I may investigate this further.



Howl of Terror over Death Coil, I would say.

Sacrifice to Voidwalker.

Axetoss to Felguard.



I did consider Howl of Terror, but I felt that it might offer just a little bit too much control. It might still be viable though. I suppose with my model the warlock has little way to defend itself if it is trained by multiple targets. It can healthstone and deathcoil one, but ultimately it would have little reactive ability. Deathcoil would also give the warlock quite a bit extra healing and it's cooldown doesn't really help it fill its intended role of self peeling. Now that I've given it a little more thought I am warming up to Howl of Terror a little bit more.



I don't feel Sacrfice is necessary however. As far as survivability goes they will have more than enough with Soul Link and self healing. There's no need to give them more. If it does turn out that they need more then Sacrifice will be a good place to get it though, but since ther self healing will be getting a substantial buff due to the damage reduction of every spec I don't think it will be.



Axe Toss is a nice idea. It will give a reason to go demo over affliction and will make locks slightly more useful on an O. That said, it is quite a powerful ability on a short cooldown. 4 sec stun ever 30 secs will be really quite powerful. The duration would have to be reduced at this level and the locks other utility would have to be taken into account. Given a 2 second duration would still allow the lock to interrupt when needed and to cast a fear ( it is off the GCD right?) if they need, but it would not necessarily keep the target incapacitated for too long a period of time.



I think that having Howl of Terror and Axe Toss together could be OP, considering their potential self healing, damage mitigation and Fear. Axe Toss and Deathcoil could work well together I feel and it would give both demo and afflic a unique feel.



I like the changes you've listed to the warrior, but maybe to have some of those skills listed restricted to certain specs



This is unfortunately too unrealistic I feel.
 
May I ask something ?





I might have missed it or maybe you said this in an other thread ( I am new to TI forum ) but what do you do with this thread ? Do you actually post it on Blizzard suggestion forum or w/e its called nowadays ?





If you don't well I don't really understand the whole point of that. If you do , I suggest you remove alot of stuff since Blizzard has stated many time since years that they will not balance the game around twinks. Adding ability such as deathcoil / shield wall will most likely never happen. Your best luck if you want to have an impact on twink balance is to ask for a dmg recution below lvl 80 , like ex: Explosive shot will now deal 35% less dmg from lvl 1-80 or flash heal will now be 30% less affected by spell power for lvl 1-80. Blizzard has done it before with some ability, just to give a exemple ' ambush when 4.0 hit ' the dammage was way too high at low lvl so they ended up nerfing it for lvl 1-80.





Though if this thread is just to discuss and have fun then well sorry for posting , have fun.
 
Kore nametooshort said:
Remember that the warrior needs to drop into defensive stance to use it and thus cannot intercept or execute with it active.

With patch 4.2. Shield Wall, Reckleckness & Retailliation will all be usable in all stances.
 
Idk these kind of balance suggestions really arent worth the effort imo when you talk about adding/removing abilities at certain brackets. Blizzard has its own staff which decide when new players should get abilitys in order to create a reasonable (although incredibly slow) leveling curve for those new to this game. Imo a blanket 30-40% reduction (the higher the better) on damage and healing for battlegrounds below level cap would be the most twink viable solution you could offer blizzard, as many levelers would agree that leveling brackets are simply ridiculously bursty in nature. Yes hunters would still be just as OP, but you wouldnt die in a focus dump (without cds), and in general movement etc would matter more when you live long enough for it to count.
 
stickymitten said:
Idk these kind of balance suggestions really arent worth the effort imo when you talk about adding/removing abilities at certain brackets. Blizzard has its own staff which decide when new players should get abilitys in order to create a reasonable (although incredibly slow) leveling curve for those new to this game. Imo a blanket 30-40% reduction (the higher the better) on damage and healing for battlegrounds below level cap would be the most twink viable solution you could offer blizzard, as many levelers would agree that leveling brackets are simply ridiculously bursty in nature. Yes hunters would still be just as OP, but you wouldnt die in a focus dump (without cds), and in general movement etc would matter more when you live long enough for it to count.



Oi, oi, oi, oi. I agree
 
Seleyzor said:
May I ask something ?





I might have missed it or maybe you said this in an other thread ( I am new to TI forum ) but what do you do with this thread ? Do you actually post it on Blizzard suggestion forum or w/e its called nowadays ?





If you don't well I don't really understand the whole point of that. If you do , I suggest you remove alot of stuff since Blizzard has stated many time since years that they will not balance the game around twinks. Adding ability such as deathcoil / shield wall will most likely never happen. Your best luck if you want to have an impact on twink balance is to ask for a dmg recution below lvl 80 , like ex: Explosive shot will now deal 35% less dmg from lvl 1-80 or flash heal will now be 30% less affected by spell power for lvl 1-80. Blizzard has done it before with some ability, just to give a exemple ' ambush when 4.0 hit ' the dammage was way too high at low lvl so they ended up nerfing it for lvl 1-80.





Though if this thread is just to discuss and have fun then well sorry for posting , have fun.



I linked the other thread in the first paragraph of this thread. Anyway, I have been told many times by players of varying repute that this will never happen. Regardless I remain hopeful and confident that at some point Blizzard will take it upon themselves to balance low level battlegrounds. This is not solely a twinking problem and it has profound effects on players new to the game as well as those interested in leveling new players.



Anyway, I am not interested in rehashing the arguments here. For now I am happy to continue, besides I enjoy it :)



And btw, in response to the previous thread I got an email from Bashiok to my personal account thanking me and telling me that it would be passed on to the class developers.



With patch 4.2. Shield Wall, Reckleckness & Retailliation will all be usable in all stances.



Thanks, I'll consider the effects this will have. Regardless, it will still be a dps and burst drop since it requires a shield.



Idk these kind of balance suggestions really arent worth the effort imo when you talk about adding/removing abilities at certain brackets. Blizzard has its own staff which decide when new players should get abilitys in order to create a reasonable (although incredibly slow) leveling curve for those new to this game. Imo a blanket 30-40% reduction (the higher the better) on damage and healing for battlegrounds below level cap would be the most twink viable solution you could offer blizzard, as many levelers would agree that leveling brackets are simply ridiculously bursty in nature. Yes hunters would still be just as OP, but you wouldnt die in a focus dump (without cds), and in general movement etc would matter more when you live long enough for it to count.



I remain convinced that Blizzard put very very minimal effort into deciding when various abilities were assigned when they revamped low levels in cataclysm. There are several indicators such as Power Word: Fortitude's strength and level, hunter mobility vs warrior mobility, healing spells, tanking abilities and many more. As such I feel no limitations in moving abilities around as I see fit since any "master plan" that the developers have for low level balance can't have already been implemented.



A blanket damage nerf would likely have a beneficial effect on low levels, however it would be very far from perfect and as someone mentioned earlier it would possibly cause as many problems as its fixed and analysising those problems could easily be just as much work as properly balancing anyway. Blizzard won't want to mindlessly just apply a nerf without actually looking at it, despite their reputation ;). Besides, I want low level pvp fixed, making it better is nice, but I'm going for everything here. There's no point doing a half arsed job.
 
I remain convinced that Blizzard put very very minimal effort into deciding when various abilities were assigned when they revamped low levels in cataclysm. There are several indicators such as Power Word: Fortitude's strength and level, hunter mobility vs warrior mobility, healing spells, tanking abilities and many more. As such I feel no limitations in moving abilities around as I see fit since any "master plan" that the developers have for low level balance can't have already been implemented.



A blanket damage nerf would likely have a beneficial effect on low levels, however it would be very far from perfect and as someone mentioned earlier it would probably cause as many problems as its fixed. I want low level pvp fixed, making it better is nice, but I'm going for everything here. There's no point doing a half arsed job.



alwite so my point was, they designed the rate of giving abilitys out to different classes around making it incredibly easy to pick up and 'master' a class from scratch, even as a new player, hence class defining ' cool ' abilitys such as blink and disengage were moved a LOT lower to encourage people to continue playing/paying etc. Low level balance isnt a significant concern, however they could make leveling bgs (and consequentially tink bgs) a lot more interesting by applying a damage/healing nerf while in the bgs (as they already did in wotlk - remember the 10% healing nerf in bgs and arenas) for brackets up to 85. Whereas removing abilites and indeed adding the ones that you listed would be undesirable, as new/mouthbreathing playrs really (overwhelmingly) dont want to deal with anything out of heroic strike, battle shout and execute for example.
 
stickymitten said:
alwite so my point was, they designed the rate of giving abilitys out to different classes around making it incredibly easy to pick up and 'master' a class from scratch, even as a new player, hence class defining ' cool ' abilitys such as blink and disengage were moved a LOT lower to encourage people to continue playing/paying etc. Low level balance isnt a significant concern, however they could make leveling bgs (and consequentially tink bgs) a lot more interesting by applying a damage/healing nerf while in the bgs (as they already did in wotlk - remember the 10% healing nerf in bgs and arenas) for brackets up to 85. Whereas removing abilites and indeed adding the ones that you listed would be undesirable, as new/mouthbreathing playrs really (overwhelmingly) dont want to deal with anything out of heroic strike, battle shout and execute for example.



That is a good point, classes should feel "cool" early on, but this isn't mutually exlcusive with being balanced and in my opinion balance should take a priority anyway. Not even mouth breathers can enjoy being at a severe disadvantage.
 
Agreed, being balanced and feeling cool is not mutually exclusive for sure, but to achieve both these things would require effort that devs feel is undue (I think) when most attention is directed to endgame, which btw is plagued by huge balance issues :p
 
That is why I created this thread and the previous one. We do the work so the devs don't have to! Sure it will be some work for the devs to feel satisfied that it is indeed a well thought out and balanced venture, but that is why I intend on creating many more walls of text to justify everything, to minimise the work they have to do and therefore maximise our chances of getting proper balance. Besides, I enjoy nerding out :)
 
Ah word, that makes sense, I would push for minimal changes, as they might simply dismiss a large number of suggesions as overly difficult to balance around (if you can).
 
consider discussing drastic down scales in the warrior damage. with the suggested changes, without a substantial nerf in damage, being hit by a warrior will feel like you just attempted to slap the shit out of a brick wall.



mage changes are <3. i agree completely with all of that which you said, however it would be quite unlucky to introduce scorch without theorycrafting the affect of heirlooms on this.. if you set the base damage too high, the (rediculous) amount of SP provided by heirloom weapons + crit rating thats also decent, will result in scorch-spamming, high critting mages running about the gulch, binding /laugh to their keys



as always, i (we i hope) appreciate your work Kore, hit me up if you need help with anything. (communication, number crunching, proof reading, somebody to troll relentlessly.)



INB4 whatever trolling i'll get<3
 
Cheers Chill.



Anyway, I will be nerfing warrior damage, in PvP at least, for sure. There is no way I would allow anyclass to keep its current level of damage. None is perfect and therefore all need tweaking. I intend to balance damage primarily around BiS twinking gear and then trying to accomodate that for heirloom leveling gear. I don't think that''s a very tall order so it should definitely be achievable.
 
Kore nametooshort said:
Cheers Chill.



Anyway, I will be nerfing warrior damage, in PvP at least, for sure. There is no way I would allow anyclass to keep its current level of damage. None is perfect and therefore all need tweaking. I intend to balance damage primarily around BiS twinking gear and then trying to accomodate that for heirloom leveling gear. I don't think that''s a very tall order so it should definitely be achievable.



/hug

the game because i needed 10 chars.
 
I gaurantee if you gave me healing surge on my sham along with riptide I would be close to unkillable as resto.
 
kablam said:
I gaurantee if you gave me healing surge on my sham along with riptide I would be close to unkillable as resto.



It certainly has the potential to make shaman very strong, but I wouldn't say that it's guaranteed. Spark of Life, Ancestral Resolve and wearing a shield do greatly buff their survivability, but with good scaling I think it could be made to work. For a start shaman will lack the kiting tools of the druid, the cooldowns and self peeling of the priest and they don't compare to holy paladins' PTI + LoH and HoP either. Riptide would be similar to one Holy Shock + 1hp WoG for instance and Healing Surge is relatively cheap compared to other Flash Heals in the bracket and shaman have some sexy utility so it would certainly be possible to make Healing Surge weaker than other Flash Heals if it is looking like shaman will be too hard to kill.



I also think shaman will be gimped without it. If they have just Healing Surge and Earth Shield they will not be able to heal multiple targets very well at all. In that case we would have to over buff Healig Surge which is itself not acceptable because it would make a shaman on its own impossible to kill. This design would make shaman OP in 1s or 2s or with an FC, but UP in large groups. This really isnt a compelling design.



The shaman healing niche is offensive utility. They have plenty of it, but earth shield and Hsurge don't complement that at all. Being offensive requires a fair amount of mobility, and the ability to switch targets effectively, which as I said is something that EShield doen't provide.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top