Kristopher said:
With a change this drastic to 19 burst you would need to make 19 healers also act like 85 healers...as in they can run out of mana in 45 seconds flat if they are spamming the wrong heals. Think about a 2v2 situation in current 85 pvp. 2 DPS can almost ignore the healer and beat his mana pool...in your model this wouldn't be possible because your burst is gimpy and your healer could just spam spam spam those heals like they currently can in 19.
I very much agree. I would rather verge towards having mana being the main limiting factor in fights than having control be the fight winning factor. As I see it, the mana model allows less reliability on RNG and allows player to focus on skill more, be it reducing incoming damage, working your mana efficiency or strategically interrupting the healer to increase his mana consumption. This is how it was during WotLK and I enjoyed that much more than losing the fight for getting caught in a stray CS or being lost in CC for the majority of the fight if you are made a CC target.
I still like the burst where it is...maybe tune it down ever so slightly on the classes that need it and introduce greater survivability for the classes that need it...this is my only major suggestion...I don't like the idea of screwing with 19 damage too greatly.
I see where you're coming from, but I don't have such compunctions because 19s are very broke at the moment and I still consider the WotLk balance to be superior and "proper" 19 damage anyway.
3 rogues working together took me out...it's not technically 1 shot it's 3 shots + some auto swings + like one sinister strike from each
and if I had a healer on me I would have had a chance. To be honest one healer and an FC is a piss poor defense to begin with but hey it was a pug.
I use the term 1shot loosely. I generally mean "killed in one short burst" when I say that. Anyway, I feel that even if the defence is poor that the defence should have enough time to react. Whether ou have 1 healer or 2 healers and a frost mage you will still need time to react and get casts down. That time doesn't change much with defence size and so no matter the defence: offence ratio the FC and D should still have time to react
Hell even compared to 85...if i get 2 other rogues together and we all ambushed something at the same time...that toon is not long for this world...I see no reason that should be different at 19.
I am willing to give concessions to sub rogues, but it still seems undesirable to have 2 rogues able to burst down any spec. The victim should still have a chance, just like he would against 2 other classes. It also makes 2v2 unbalanced. If a dual rogue team can down a healer before he can react then dual rogue will be a very OP setup.
Unless blizz brings back some kind of wacky Resilience scaling or ridiculous BC level health pools... you're not going to get 25% burst cap. I am not interested in spending 6+ whole minutes trying to take a healer down until finally he gets some backup...sounds too much like BC twinking to me. Do you secretly long for the BC days or something? :c)
1v1 I don't see why you need to be able to down a healer. If you can solo kill a healer in under 3 or 4 mins then the value of healers is greatly diminished.
Purge isn't a niche in your model...in your model purge breaks way too much...you have to get rid of it. Think about it..you give these classes some great utility/survivability but it's all crushed by one spell. In your model you wouldn't want a single purgable class in your flag recovery team. In order for purge to be a Shaman niche it would need some kind of ridiculous 1 minute cooldown or something...and we know that's not happening.
Purge is a big issue I do agree, but I'm still hesitant to throw it away. I bet I hate purge just as much as you, but I still want to explore all possibilities first and then decide on a solution. The classes affected by purge are priest heals, druid heals, druid defensive anti melee utility, mage survivability, shaman heals and paladin mobility. Purge is not the only offensive dispel either, if I want to reintroduce defensive dispels then it is intrinsically tied to Dispel Magic and Shield Slam also dispels magic. Simply throwing away purge will not fix that. Also, purge
is part of the shamans niche. Removing it makes the shaman less attractive to take on an offence.
That said, purge and dispels do have a marked effect on shaman, druid and priest healing ability, paladin utility and mage survivability. It makes the shaman and priest OP in some situations and UP in others. Its not a terribly effective piece of utility in that regard. I think on the whole that warrior dispels are not a problem. The fact that it's melee range, has a CD and requires a low dps spec to use makes it less than game breaking. Purge is spammable, essentially free for an Enhance and Dispel Magic is little better for a priest.
The options as I see them are: Embrace offensive dispels and try to find dispel protection, completely ditch ALL dispels and balance without them, try and remove the offensive part to Dispel Magic remove purge or find a happy balance. Ideally I would try and remove all offensive dispels and leave defensive dispels, but that's not entirely practical, but then again neither is removing all dispels or leaving both purge and Dispel Magic in
I hope you don't take that post the wrong way. It's intended to poke holes in your Balance theory crafting so that you can consider those and make it better. I can tell you put a lot of research into this and put a lot of care into these posts keep up the good work. TBH I am probably over exaggerating on the purge issue but maybe there are other ideas floating out there.
Not at all, thats exactly what I'm hoping for
