How to balance 19 dps
- Thread starter Kore nametooshort
- Start date
Quinp said:
tbh its a good point by pizza. Wyvern sting is a 6 or 8 (i forget) sec duration CC, much more than hunters have at the moment and it has the potential to make all hunters cookie cutter copies of each other and surv more OP than iintend. If BM and surv both have a CC as their specialisation one spec would be preferable to the other, making all hunters the same spec. If surv was given mobile dps and BM some CC it would make hunter specs different and hopefully they would be adequately balanced
I think you guys are also wildly over exaggerating the amount of "burst" a feral can deal. A feral opener is a mangle + a white swing which is 300% weapon damage which will struggle to top 250 damage before armour. Other than that, as i said, i requires gimping of dps through energy hording and dumping it all on one FB.
Tigers fury would give a relatively static boost to dps. Other than that another option is to introduce Ravage, which hits for 505% weapon dps. In kitty form this would hit for about 300 non crit before armour for a heavy energy cost.
Edit: After playing my feral in BGs for a couple hours last night to test this i can confirm that they have zero burst other than getting lucky with energy hoarded fero bite which rarely makes a difference in any situation. Kitties also have little utility, i've played around with pred strikes spec, infected wounds specs etc, and their utility is just too low to feel useful. Add this together with average dps, zero burst and soon to be nerfed mobility and ferals have a problem. I've reassessed my thoughts on ferals and i feel that tigers fury would not cut the mustard and instead that Bash and Ravage would give the desired result.
I do not think either would be OP, bash requires 2 CDs of not dpsing to use (assuming cat form). We had bash in 3.3.5 and it was not OP then for any spec. Ravage hits for 505% weapon damage plus 66 and costs a pretty large 60 enery to use. Bout the same as ambush. For an AP stacked feral with a top end of 62 this can hit a top end of 407(noncrit), not really OP, especially with the survivability buffs.
Discuss
Tigers fury would give a relatively static boost to dps. Other than that another option is to introduce Ravage, which hits for 505% weapon dps. In kitty form this would hit for about 300 non crit before armour for a heavy energy cost.
Edit: After playing my feral in BGs for a couple hours last night to test this i can confirm that they have zero burst other than getting lucky with energy hoarded fero bite which rarely makes a difference in any situation. Kitties also have little utility, i've played around with pred strikes spec, infected wounds specs etc, and their utility is just too low to feel useful. Add this together with average dps, zero burst and soon to be nerfed mobility and ferals have a problem. I've reassessed my thoughts on ferals and i feel that tigers fury would not cut the mustard and instead that Bash and Ravage would give the desired result.
I do not think either would be OP, bash requires 2 CDs of not dpsing to use (assuming cat form). We had bash in 3.3.5 and it was not OP then for any spec. Ravage hits for 505% weapon damage plus 66 and costs a pretty large 60 enery to use. Bout the same as ambush. For an AP stacked feral with a top end of 62 this can hit a top end of 407(noncrit), not really OP, especially with the survivability buffs.
Discuss
bump .
notoriousthf
Born US, Raised Mexican
Ravage for 800 in crt, and along with pred strikes' 50% crit increase will be a near guarantee, is evil to the core.
notoriousthf said:
Hmm, i'd forgotten about pred strikes. Remember though that this will still be weaker than an ambush crit and rogues have 60% additional crit chance.
notoriousthf
Born US, Raised Mexican
Kore nametooshort said:
In the end, it's dependent on AP. Will it be worth switching out haste for agi, or keep haste for energy regen?
notoriousthf said:
Exactly. The number i quoted was for an AP stacked feral, something like 511ap.
soggy
Legend
Kore, ret pallies have a hard enough time catching up with people, so once they do i think its fair that they can actually kill them. warrior nerf? they already are the most gimp class at 19! feral druids are good are fine, Of course hunters need a nerf, counterspell is a balanced ability. Every point you have made beside hunter nerf and avengers shield makes no sense. All damage is currently balanced out with healing/ other classes damage( besides hunters as i have said many times).
notoriousthf
Born US, Raised Mexican
Kore nametooshort said:
Well, in terms with infected wounds, it's at least almost pars rogue's waylay, since infected wounds works with ravage, too. It's not as good, but it's more accurate.
soggy said:
Yes, that is true. Their damage however is far too high. It is much better to be able to rely on when you deal damage and have that damage scaled accordingly than to pray that you will get enough time on target to apply heavy enough burst to kill your opponent. If you give paladins HoF then their time on target increases thus their damage increases. Balancing this does require the correct numbers however and giving them enough utility to get on target, hence this next quote.
hmm exactly, thats why i propose nerfing them so hard, im just not sure if its too hard or not. If their dps and burst becomes something like that of a rogues would HoF + HoJ be enough ToT to be effective? Would it be worth trying to incorporate part of either Pursuit of Justice or Long arm of the Law into the ret specialisation?[/QUOTE]Kore nametooshort said:
Yes, they are in a similar boat to rets, their damage is too high but their utility and mobility is too low. Increase their ToT and they become OP. I think that if you think about the changes i have proposed you will see that it is a net buff, same with rets.
I would disagree. I can see where you are coming from, they are a viable source of dps, but their lack of burst and utility make them seem like a rather powerful dot that has been applied to the enemy rather than a player. Give them burst and utility and they become a more interesting class. They might need to have their dps scaled back a wee bit to compensate for the burst, but i think they'll be fine as they are.
I strongly disagree. In 1v1 try duelling a mage as any caster and you will see this. In group pvp try playing a healer that gets locked out for 8 seconds, it is too long and allows too much to be achieved during it while the healer is next to useless. In this bracket it is unbalanced to have a game breaking ability on a 24sec cooldown.
Damage output is not balanced. Compare a ret paladin to a shadow priest and you will see this. Other things than damage are also unbalanced such as mobility and utility. If you fix these (take the ret or warrior example again) and damage becomes even more unbalanced.
notoriousthf said:
indeed, so what do you think of the introduction of Ravage? Would it be a good idea, or unbalanced?
notoriousthf
Born US, Raised Mexican
Kore nametooshort said:
Hard to say. Ravage is really a must, I can agree on that, but sacrificing haste is what's bothering me.
In PvE, off topic, I think we need swipe for tanking. Just an IMO thing.
Zimt the Diplomat
Zimtc[lassic]
First of all, it's a good idea to think about stuff like that. But I think what you suggest in the oppening thread is way to much. It seems like you want to nerf all classes to the maximum in order to get decent gameplay back. But if you look at warr for example at warr, what's the point in ToT if you deal .... ahm no damage at all? Just think about it, it's not a big critic, but maybe start with slight changes, not drastic ones like blizzard always tires to fix problems (what an abillity deals too much damage? -75% dmg on that! now we got it right!).
notoriousthf said:
Well, then need to sacrifice haste for ravage will help it stay balanced. And yeah, swipe is needed i have a list of pve changes somewhere aswell including aoe druid and pala abilites and stuff for shammy healers.
Hmm this is a good point, maybe some of my suggestions are a bit harsh (eg BT and sader strike). I'll give it a rethink.
Shamageddon
Legend
I was under the impression they were getting a 100% weapon buff to Mangle/Shred (not that shred effects the bracket). If they started running around with Ravage it would be a lot more like rogues ambushing for 800+? What if they were to get Rip in the lower bracket? Feral druids aren't really a burst class. Maybe even throw them Skull Bash? I don't see any other way Druids can silence (apart roflstomp Taurens).