How good is talasite for healers?

[glancealot]

Something Ming (an old school rogue) said has always been my rule-of-thumb when it comes to pvp: a dead rogue has no dps.

i had always paid extra attention to survivability than other rogues when it comes to pvp when i played rogue. that habit carried over to other classes, such as druid and paladin.

in terms of healing youself, 1 int is 1 extra healing but 1 stamina is 11 extra health. assuming you have 28% increased healing/14% damage reduction (vers), 1 int becomes 1*1.28 = 1.28 health per self-heal, 1 stamina becomes 11/0.86 = 12.8 health.

i would say i can easily get off 25 self-heals on average for each death. this makes 1 int equals

25*1.28= approximately 32 health, so 1 int is equal to 32/12.8 = 2.5 stamina.

so talasite is really 6 / 2.5 = 2.4 int + 4 armor which is not nearly as good as 2 int + 2 vers gems

and we are strictly talking about self-healing here. when you bring teammates into the equation, 2 int + 2 vers just wins handsdown.

no surprise so far, almost all healers i see do gem 2 int + 2 vers over talasite.

however, we are forgetting one thing in our analysis, that is, over-healing.

we assume that all of our heals are 100% efficient, despite the fact that, for example, holy shock has a 30% base crit and can over-heal all the time, bestow faith can overheal too due to its nature.

now, imagine, even if you over heal 5 times in those 25 heals (assuming you get 25 heals off every time you die) mentioned above, each time by 100, that's 500 healing/health wasted, which translates into 500/12.8 = 40 stamina! so if you had 10 more stamina, each of those 10 point of stamina is worth 4 stamina!

so in some sense, the quick math here says that if you over-heal, even if rarely and only by relatively small amounts, each additional point of stamina can HELP you out by increasing your "effective health" in a a leveraged way that int cannot (leveraged here refers to the fact that each additional stamina is now somehow as good as 4 stamina).

so it is not a simple "int/vers > stamina, git gud noob" decision anymore. especially if you further incorporate what i said at the very beginning: a dead rogue (healer) has no dps (hps), i.e., when 2 good twinks focus on you, you just might not get 25 heals off before you hit the release spirit button (especially if you are not a paladin)

i think the scientific way to do this is to gem all https://www.wowhead.com/spell=43493/steady-talasite, then look at your recount report for a credible number of games (say 20 games), and see if you over-heal.

if you overheal a lot, then don't bother replacing any of them with https://www.wowhead.com/item=32225/purified-shadowsong-amethyst , but if you don't over-heal, you should replace 1 https://www.wowhead.com/spell=43493/steady-talasite with 1 https://www.wowhead.com/item=32225/purified-shadowsong-amethyst

then you play another 20 games, look at the report again, you keep doing this until at some point, you observe that self overhealing becomes significant (i.e., at which point, each additional int doesn't really offer 2.5 stamina anymore).

i want to hear what others say with respect to how good talasite is for healers, thank you!

 

[ohti]

I'm not reading all of this but no talasite is not good on healers.

 

[glancealot]

I'm not reading all of this but no talasite is not good on healers.

but the point is to play devil's advocate here...

 

[ohti]

but the point is to play devil's advocate here...

Play however you want Idc.

Realistically, you could stack 3 or maybe even 6 talasites on a healer if you're really not that confident in your abilities but if you are stacking straight talasites your team might as well be -1 slot bc you're useless.

 

[glancealot]

Play however you want Idc.

Realistically, you could stack 3 or maybe even 6 talasites on a healer if you're really not that confident in your abilities but if you are stacking straight talasites your team might as well be -1 slot.

Thanks for the feedback so far, i think we are off to a great start with one moderator joining the discussion and another liking the post.

but please keep in mind that i base my decisions on pugs vs pugs where each side has 0~2 twinks, not those annual 10 twink vs. 10 twink games (which i would probably miss anyway because i don't group queue).

how can my team ever be -1 slot when i know i am going to be there to carry instead of being carried most of the time?

 

[ohti]

how can my team ever be -1 slot when i know i am going to be there to carry instead of being carried most of the time?

If you want to carry your team then get huge amounts of sp instead of letting everybody but yourself die 15 seconds into the clash...

 

[glancealot]

If you want to carry your team then get huge amounts of int instead of letting everybody but yourself die 15 seconds into the clash...

the short answer to that is,

• against a "Teldrassil Firefighters" pre-made, they would die within 15 seconds regardless
• against a pug, my heals would be fine given my high vers and my positioning that naturally absorbs a not insignificant portion of the incoming dps.

 

[ohti]

the short answer to that is,

• against a "Teldrassil Firefighters" pre-made, they would die within 15 seconds regardless
• against a pug, my heals would be fine given my high vers and my positioning that naturally absorbs a not insignificant portion of the incoming dps.

not insignificant

Sounds like you need to work on your positioning, buddy!

 

[toskosa]

\My druid has a high talasite count and honestly my heals feel really weak, I can understand 1-2 talisites ( my priest has 2 socketed atm) being alright but anything more is just too much imo. Like the healing difference between my priests one at 300+ sp in bgs is pretty huge, I can full heal ppl with crit shadowmends while my new priest can't.

Keep in mind certain specs in the bracket atm are super bursty and having the ability to counter that burst with big heals is key, unless you are getting hit for like 3k regularly I wouldn't bother stacking a bunch of talasites.

 

[Kaxle]

If you insist on playing front line pinata in pugs then yeah if everyone just tries to kill the out of position stam stacked healer it accomplishes something. However, as soon as people realize "oh hey this guy has 10k hp lets just attack someone else" the build loses all viability since you sacrificed all your throughput for survivability and no one is bothering to attack you. Renamed would occasionally run a super stam/vers stack build on his rDruid in BFA and you could see a gaggle of levelers and smooth brains chase after him away from the team fight so the idea sorta works I guess?

Its pretty much the wow equivalent of

 

[tence]

Something Ming (an old school rogue) said has always been my rule-of-thumb when it comes to pvp: a dead rogue has no dps.

i had always paid extra attention to survivability than other rogues when it comes to pvp when i played rogue. that habit carried over to other classes, such as druid and paladin.

in terms of healing youself, 1 int is 1 extra healing but 1 stamina is 11 extra health. assuming you have 28% increased healing/14% damage reduction (vers), 1 int becomes 1*1.28 = 1.28 health per self-heal, 1 stamina becomes 11/0.86 = 12.8 health.

i would say i can easily get off 25 self-heals on average for each death. this makes 1 int equals

25*1.28= approximately 32 health, so 1 int is equal to 32/12.8 = 2.5 stamina.

so talasite is really 6 / 2.5 = 2.4 int + 4 armor which is not nearly as good as 2 int + 2 vers gems

and we are strictly talking about self-healing here. when you bring teammates into the equation, 2 int + 2 vers just wins handsdown.

no surprise so far, almost all healers i see do gem 2 int + 2 vers over talasite.

however, we are forgetting one thing in our analysis, that is, over-healing.

we assume that all of our heals are 100% efficient, despite the fact that, for example, holy shock has a 30% base crit and can over-heal all the time, bestow faith can overheal too due to its nature.

now, imagine, even if you over heal 5 times in those 25 heals (assuming you get 25 heals off every time you die) mentioned above, each time by 100, that's 500 healing/health wasted, which translates into 500/12.8 = 40 stamina! so if you had 10 more stamina, each of those 10 point of stamina is worth 4 stamina!

so in some sense, the quick math here says that if you over-heal, even if rarely and only by relatively small amounts, each additional point of stamina can HELP you out by increasing your "effective health" in a a leveraged way that int cannot (leveraged here refers to the fact that each additional stamina is now somehow as good as 4 stamina).

so it is not a simple "int/vers > stamina, git gud noob" decision anymore. especially if you further incorporate what i said at the very beginning: a dead rogue (healer) has no dps (hps), i.e., when 2 good twinks focus on you, you just might not get 25 heals off before you hit the release spirit button (especially if you are not a paladin)

i think the scientific way to do this is to gem all https://www.wowhead.com/spell=43493/steady-talasite, then look at your recount report for a credible number of games (say 20 games), and see if you over-heal.

if you overheal a lot, then don't bother replacing any of them with https://www.wowhead.com/item=32225/purified-shadowsong-amethyst , but if you don't over-heal, you should replace 1 https://www.wowhead.com/spell=43493/steady-talasite with 1 https://www.wowhead.com/item=32225/purified-shadowsong-amethyst

then you play another 20 games, look at the report again, you keep doing this until at some point, you observe that self overhealing becomes significant (i.e., at which point, each additional int doesn't really offer 2.5 stamina anymore).

i want to hear what others say with respect to how good talasite is for healers, thank you!

The problem as others have said with stacking full stam is that at that point you arent really a healer anymore, you are a distraction. Whether that is worth taking up one slot on your team is up to you, but generally speaking the idea of a healer is to heal others and by doing so let them dps down whomever is on you. The life of a healer is a symbiotic relationship where your success depends on your ability to effectively keep everyone else up around you.

At it's most basic form healing is about doing anti-damage, or removing damage from other players. If an aimed shot does say 1k damage on average and my flash of light does 800 on average. It's pretty easy to keep up with that. A single spell is going to be able to nullify most of this damage and ensure the fight becomes a mana fight more than anything especially given the longer cast time of aimed shot).

Instead of looking at it like "how many casts can I get off before I die", look at it like "how many casts do I need to do to counter abilities". If my one cast can counter a bunch of abilities my opponent does, and then I can just keep casting away/damaging them, does that extra hp matter?

Extra stam only matters if you expect to be 1 shot constantly. Otherwise more healing will go further to ensuring you don't die.

 

[fungchewuchi]

It's really quite simple. As a healer, go for things that make you heal better, unless you find yourself dying too easily, and then swap in just enough stam to give you the room to get back to healing. Most of us feel we can survive fine without any added stam, but if you need that crutch, so be it. personally, i consider it only when i find a chain-stunlock too difficult to deal with, but that hasn't been often in wow's balance history.

edit: kaxle makes a very valid point about being a retard magnet. that's... probably pretty viable actually.

 

[Stim]

What you could do, just putting this out there, is have a couple of sets of gear.

 

[accel]

I saw some f2p healers going hard on talasites in bgs. They were very easy to beat. If some enemy healer wants to stack talasites / stamina, I am going to be very thankful for that. If some healer on my side will try to do that, I might try to tell to them that this doesn't work.

The analysis in the first post is strange. What's that "average number of self heals before death" metric? Who on earth would base anything on that? That's just some random stat you end up with, not something you try to work for in the first place. It's like "on average, between different jobs, my office was on floor 6". So what, should I be looking for offices near floor 6 in the future now?? It's just a random number. You should be going from what kind of pressure you want to withstand. And if you want to withstand anything higher than 1v1, meaning constant pressure from a single twink, you are doing it wrong, 1v2 and more should be countered by positioning with saves giving you some (small) time to fix things up.
[doublepost=1615533951,1615532946][/doublepost]

If you insist on playing front line pinata in pugs then yeah if everyone just tries to kill the out of position stam stacked healer it accomplishes something. However, as soon as people realize "oh hey this guy has 10k hp lets just attack someone else" the build loses all viability since you sacrificed all your throughput for survivability and no one is bothering to attack you. Renamed would occasionally run a super stam/vers stack build on his rDruid in BFA and you could see a gaggle of levelers and smooth brains chase after him away from the team fight so the idea sorta works I guess?

Anything will work against levelers. Against twinks, the following will happen - at first all dps around the stamina-stacking healer will die their quick deaths, then the stamina-stacking healer will follow them to the grave. You could have 50k hp and it wouldn't matter (omitting heals based on hp levels), you won't outheal the damage from multiple people and you won't be able to run away from them, so you'll die, period.

I mean, come on, what are we even talking about. The biggest healing I ever saw in bgs was 185k. That was in a full match, from a very geared paladin, who wasn't stacking stamina. The healing from a stamina stacking healer will be significantly less. The output of a hunter / warlock / some other specs in a match that long can easily top 100k. I did 140k once. I saw others do more. So, this stamina stacking healer will die *easily* to two twinks and possibly even to just one.

 

[Kaxle]

Anything will work against levelers. Against twinks, the following will happen - at first all dps around the stamina-stacking healer will die their quick deaths, then the stamina-stacking healer will follow them to the grave. You could have 50k hp and it wouldn't matter (omitting heals based on hp levels), you won't outheal the damage from multiple people and you won't be able to run away from them, so you'll die, period.

I agree stam stacking is a bad move and won't work against anyone who is actually paying attention. Theres definitely much better way's of building your character, personally don't run or plan on running any talasites on my hPal, but based on his other threads I don't think he is interested in those. All of glance's build choices revolve around running around trying to be hard to kill in pugs, not actually teamfighting as a co-ordinated group. He will be running around with 140+% ms and 30% vers while wearing https://www.wowhead.com/item=13505/runeblade-of-baron-rivendare?bonus=6712 so he isn't concerned about the scenario you described. If you are queuing in a group this kind of build definitely won't be an issue to you but if solo/duo don't be surprised when half your team can't look past the "easy" kill.

 

[Billyballo]

I went full talasite on my ally pala thinking that way I would only need 1 set of gear for all three specs.
Would recommend only if you are as lazy as I am, because you end up being mediocre in every spec (crusader does help but no that much with prot and retri, holy really feels lacking not only with healing but with dps too).

Doing the horde pala right now with more time and reasoning (all the 11 ally chars got their gems and enchants in the free wekeend so I didn't plan it that well) I'm thinking of using 3 tala and 1 nightmare in key pieces hard to get double and all the rest using gems appropriate to the different specs (with brd helm for holy, if no brd helm I would use 3 more tala on the quest helm).

 

[dANNN]

I've answered this before but we found the sweet-spot for Healers was about 2.3-2.5k HP outside of BGs (4k inside). The main thing we realised is that Versa doesn't scale as well as Stamina inside BGs. So stacking full int/versa is probably not a good idea for solo queue unless you have good survivability. For Wargames its probably fine to stack 2/2 as healers normally sit behind the fight and rarely get targeted (unless their caught out of position - which in any case is probably GG with or without talasite).

 

[Twobuttons]

K here I am to give you some attention. Usually this is where I say dont take it personally but this time due to pure dumbass I hope that you do take it that way.

1.) EVERY bg I've seen you in, you are not working as a team player. There isnt an excuse in the world for this.

2.) Bashing another guild on here in public doesnt help the bracket you were basically crying about in the last thread. (Even if I dont care for a good handful of them). That's just something you dont do.

3. If I saw your stupid ass with anything over 4k health. You're gonna sit sheep the entire time while I kill everyone around you. Then I'm gonna troll you for at least another 30-45 seconds of your time. Because I just dont deal with idiots respectfully.

4.) You should prolly stack some speed now that you know I'm gonna be looking for you. (Wanted to make sure I added to the dumb thread).

 

[zazzyfraz]

Now I feel bad for putting talisite in all of zenwows sockets lol... if you inspect them know that it is me you should be judging. NOT THEM

 

[toskosa]

1.) EVERY bg I've seen you in, you are not working as a team player. There isnt an excuse in the world for this.

This is pretty accurate from the games I have qued into glance in.

What you could do, just putting this out there, is have a couple of sets of gear.

I do have a few sets that I swap around based on games, my main one has no talasites. While another set has a total of 2 talasites for when I am a little spooked.