Discuss. What would have the highest CAP?Druid > Hunter > Warlock > Warrior > Rogue > Priest > Mage > Shaman > Paladin.
This would be about the order of max. skill-cap.
Edit: Druid being highest, Paladin lowest.
Highest skillcap on classes @ F2P
- Thread starter Mialo
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You can put shaman lowest, I've been trying to improve everything i could think of but besides standard play there is really little to improve. I will still keep trying to find something that makes a huge difference with skill cap.....2 totems per rotation is possible so im still working on earthbind to apply the buff and replaceing it with a strenght totem quickly after(for enh that is.) But overall there is so much more i can think off with other classes besides general gameplay.
I'd say it's more:
Druid > Warlock > Warrior > Mage > Shaman > Rogue > Priest > Hunter > Paladin
But that is looking at it in the current meta, if we are going to look at it with hunters burst not being ridiculous like MoP is promising then I think it will be more:
Druid > Warlock > Warrior > Hunter > Mage > Shaman > Rogue > Priest > Paladin
But that is also assuming the Priest is Discipline, specs come into it all pretty heavily and I don't want to make any flowcharts Y-Y
Edit: Thinking about it a little more I gave Warriors a lot of credit because they can be kited so easily, so they might deserve to be a bit lower, not sure though, as I've never played one at 20.
Druid > Warlock > Warrior > Mage > Shaman > Rogue > Priest > Hunter > Paladin
But that is looking at it in the current meta, if we are going to look at it with hunters burst not being ridiculous like MoP is promising then I think it will be more:
Druid > Warlock > Warrior > Hunter > Mage > Shaman > Rogue > Priest > Paladin
But that is also assuming the Priest is Discipline, specs come into it all pretty heavily and I don't want to make any flowcharts Y-Y
Edit: Thinking about it a little more I gave Warriors a lot of credit because they can be kited so easily, so they might deserve to be a bit lower, not sure though, as I've never played one at 20.
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I'm going to repeat what I said in that thread:
As a druid, I have stealth, mangle, rake, ferocious bite, rejuvenation, regrowth, nourish, insect swarm, moonfire, entangling roots, travel form, bear form, maul, demoralizing roar, thorns, rebirth.
And that's not counting the non-class skills, trinkets and potions.
Those are just the abilities I need to manage, outside of the tactics necessary to use them differently against different classes. There is no set rotation or strategy that works against all classes.
As a druid, I have stealth, mangle, rake, ferocious bite, rejuvenation, regrowth, nourish, insect swarm, moonfire, entangling roots, travel form, bear form, maul, demoralizing roar, thorns, rebirth.
And that's not counting the non-class skills, trinkets and potions.
Those are just the abilities I need to manage, outside of the tactics necessary to use them differently against different classes. There is no set rotation or strategy that works against all classes.
I think the focus on the slow shot will make then a little harder to play, but burst doesn't really have to do with skillcap i think. Skillcap has to do with being able to get the maximum out of your character. Hunter's at the moment can't show that they can since most things will just fall over if they attack it, but i think that if this balance would be balanced around skillcap that hunters would get a huge % debuff. If that makes any sence....xD
Thats 16 spells. As an ele shaman i have Lightning bolt, primal strike, strenght of earth totem, earth shock, healing wave, lightning shield, searing totem, flametongue totem, purge, flame shock, ghost wolf, wind shear, cleanse spirit, earthbind totem, healing stream totem, healing surge, water shield and thunderstorm as spells that I often use. (18)
Does this mean shaman has a high skillcap...No!>.< Its about how difficult it is to use them perfectly. For instance my attacks all just do damage, but a warrior must figure out how much armor somebody has and decide if stacking sunder armor is a good idea. This alone is far more math then i ever have to do when choosing between flame shock or earth shock. So please dont rank classes on how much stuff they have to memorize.
Hunter>Druid>Warlock>Rogue>Shaman>Mage>Priest>Warrior>Paladin
Hunter by far the highest
I'd say Druid beats out Warlock because of the amount of kiting possible with the given abilities
Warlock, being the only class I haven't played at 20, I'm going to stick here tentatively
For those of you who think rogue is just ambush and run away... lol
Shaman, have you seen Dankfury lately?
Mage for frost and managing CC rather than just arcane barrage
Priest for the perfect balance of doing damage while at the same time not letting people die
Warrior, you zerg damage, it's above paladin due to how much insight you need to know when you can push for damage, or when you shouldn't engage/chase
Paladin is at the bottom. I think it's fairly explanatory
Druid>Warlock>Hunter>Shaman>Mage>Rogue>Priest>Warrior>Paladin
imo of coarse. Paladin and warrior having less capabilities and less combo potential while druids and warlocks=hunters in highest skill potential.
Their effectiveness is a completely different story.
I think you guys are forgetting specs, or at least in some cases. Some of you say paladins have the lowest skill cap but in terms of what spec? You guys are forgetting specs and how that changes game play for most classes
As a holy paladin, i find this combo to have a high skill cap because managing mana and keeping teamates alive is not easy at all, especially in this hunter/rogue/24 bracket. Healers in general have a hard time but i guess this thread isn't looking at healers but dps?
As a holy paladin, i find this combo to have a high skill cap because managing mana and keeping teamates alive is not easy at all, especially in this hunter/rogue/24 bracket. Healers in general have a hard time but i guess this thread isn't looking at healers but dps?
You don't use Nourish as a druid.
You use thorns against rogues only.
You have no tremendously useful CC (lol roots) that is worth the GCD or casting time.
As a feral, your job is to sit on something, and turret. That's it. You do great damage, but don't kid yourself that the skillcap is high because you have more buttons to push. Monkeys can be trained to respond to stimuli to push a button - it takes higher thinking to plan, coordinate, and predict what the opponent will be doing. That is the job of a true CC'er, such as lock, mage, and priest in this bracket.
And before you even begin to respond, keep in mind I've played high end feral, and its still just focus clone and tunnel with minimal CD management.
I'd like to say Rets have one of the higher skillcaps, since you have to manage focus hammer, defensive positioning for heals AND offensive positioning for the kill, as well as mana usage.
i dont play hunter very much and i do not profess to be pro or anything, but, i have played exactly two games as BM and have done above and beyond my normal scoring as far as killing blow, damage done and healers roflstomped. its more complicated to play then survival but the results are very rewarding.
i topped the dmg charts both games and i do not even have a single heirloom or even preBoA BiS gear, BM allows you to outplay superiorly geared players easily.
Of course you use nourish... When you need a non-urgent heal and want to conserve mana.
Thorns are great vs any melee class... even killing hunter pets.
Roots are great for peeling people of your FC and kiting
Tunnel visioning is never good for any class... putting bleeds on 2 targets is great when the enemy team has multiple healers and you can't burst atm. It's good to put pressure on 2 targets for a later swap when there's an opportunity.
That is true. I use it infrequently to heal up after a fight.
Exactly.
Wat. If you are not using roots to slow down the efc, separate healers from their advancing group, or preventing a hunter from kiting one of your teammates, then you are not doing your job as a druid.
Are you kidding me? If you are restricting yourself to turreting as feral, then the skill cap is on you, not the class.
As a stealther, I have to be ready to play O or D on the flag, I need to CC melee and dot stealthers when I'm in mid, and as a druid I have to be ready to run the flag myself when pressure needs to be applied and our fc is across the field.
But yeah, if I think my job is to turret, then any mouth-breather can play the class.
oh, we got a pro here. lemme guess... arena jockey?
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I agree completely! However, a class that has to manage a handful of skills definitely has a lower skill cap simply because there are fewer options for the various contingencies.
The skill cap of a class has to do with the number of abilities available for use, the variety of combinations which are effective for various situations, and the necessity of the variety in order to be successful.
In other words, if you have 5 skills total that you use, do you do not have a high skill cap.
If you have 15 skills you use, but you use them the same way for most situations, then you do not have a high skill cap.
If you have 15 skills you can use and a wide variety of ways to use them, but you don't NEED to use that variety because most of the combinations can be used effectively in most situations (i.e. you can just use one or two), then you do not have a high skill cap.
IMO.
I think a lot of people don't understand what a "skill-cap" is. Imirak is very close to the answer. Skill-cap generally is a combination of three things.
First, the amount of buttons you can press in different ways (what Imirak mentions). Basically, if you can only press 2 buttons and still be indistinguishable from the other guy pressing 2 buttons then you have a low skill cap. If on the other hand you have a lot of buttons to press that can distinguish you from that other guy then the class has a higher skill cap.
Second, and this is more player specific, is your need to position well. In other words, if you can stand and turret, you have a lower skill-cap in this ONE area. If having superior movement makes a difference then the class has a bit more depth to it and thus a higher skill-cap. The best example of this is Death Knights in Season 5. You could literally just spam Icy Touch, Death Strike and Death Grip and be virtually indistinguishable from every other Death Knight because movement simply did not matter. You could force players to have to come to you or grip them to you every 30 seconds.
Third, and finally, off abilities and resource utilization. In other words, if you're a DPS class that functions off of a single resource mechanic (lets say runic power to maintain the DK analogy) that builds upon itself then you're always going to have a lower skill-cap then a class that has a resource that is constantly driven down and is hard to replenish. For example, a healer usually has a higher skill cap at the level cap meta-game because you can constantly do a better job of conserving mana.
Now, with that being said, how do you go about figuring out who has a higher skill cap? Well, you should take the aggregate of the above three and go from there. The best way to do this, however, is to simply think about the classes. You all play 20s a lot (as do I). There are certain classes where it's apparent when a far better player is playing. Moreover, there are some classes where it really doesn't matter who is playing, the result is always the same. If there's a huge range of skill in a class that usually shows that there's a higher skill cap than the other class. Two important things to take note of here; first, do not take into account if the class is underpowered or overpowered (in that skill-cap measures only the range that differentiates a skilled player from a non-skilled player and NOT the difference in each class to the other), and second, don't take into account player skills (in other words your ability to strafe or move well doesn't make the skill-cap of the class higher, it just means you can move better than the other person).
With that being said, I'll rank mine and explain why I think it is the way it is.
BM Hunter
Balance Druid
Survival Hunter
Feral Druid
Marksman Hunter
Resto Druid
Subtlety Rogue
Elemental Shaman
Holy Priest
Disc Priest
Resto Shaman
Frost Mage
Shadow Priest
Enhancement Shaman
Destruction Warlock
Arcane Mage
Combat Rogue
Ret Paladin
Demonology Warlock
Holy Paladin
Affliction Warlock
Arms Warrior
Fire Mage
Prot Warrior
Prot Paladin
Assassination Rogue
So to explain my reasoning. First, hunters should be very self explanatory. Hunters have the most abilities at this level, and the difference between a good hunter, a great hunter, an average hunter and a bad hunter is highly differentiated. There's a reason everyone can say Biggie was the best hunter without any argument because it's pretty obvious who is really good and who is not. Your ability to use your pet, pet abilities, healing your pet, dismissing your pet, kiting, focus management for burst, scatter, conc etc are all brought into play. Yes, you can complain that hunters get all these abilities but the fact that they are there means good players take advantage of them.
Druids go in order I place them (interspersed with hunters) because they too have a lot of abilities that good druids take advantage of. Feral is all about kiting with roots, healing others/self healing, and using pretty much every ability under the sun. Balance gets a higher skill cap, however, because they have to maintain mana while still using two different schools to be "good." In other words, a good balance druid needs to be healing, DPSing and doing so without losing all of their mana. And even if they do lose all their mana, they need to be able to go cat and start doing some feral damage.
Rogues get the slots they do because of again, the high difference between good and bad players. This is far more apparent in arena than BG's so I'll explain it to those who don't do arena. Rogues (Sub) have the most CC and control in this bracket. Good rogues should be getting saps off, restealthing (that's one of the few things that feral druids never have to worry about that rogues do), gouging, kicking and shadowstepping properly at all times. Good rogues become apparent because many of the abilities that distinguish good rogues at end game exist at this bracket (shadow-step kicking/gouging, restealthing with LoS). Unfortunately, most of these abilities come only with Sub. Mut is basically a bad warrior, and Combat gets a pass only because it requires ToT.
Shamans get third. Dankfury proves this better than anybody. Long story short, Elemental and Resto both have to purge anything and everything they can, ensure they are shearing, allow teammates to kite around Earthbind, DPS and heal, and generally be a nuisance. If you're Ele you get a higher skill cap because you have Thunderstorm and your ability to use it properly makes or breaks your team. Resto gets second because a good resto shaman has to take advantage of melee abilities while still kiting in between the 6 second CD. Enhancement is far lower because outside of using your negligible amount of mana for purges and heals you really are just spamming a few abilities.
Priest is next up. Priests have the ability to do everything. Good priests do a ton of damage, keep everyone up via shields and healing, fear well and still manage to not go OOM. Bad priests put renew, shield and cast a flash heal to heal the person who just lost only 200 HP. Those priests go OOM fast and then wonder why the other priest is not OOM. Holy adds an extra dimension since it gets a stun with Chastise. Disc gets an easier fake with penance. Also, if you're wondering why healer classes are up so high it's because unlike non-casters faking actually matters.
Mages are next. Frost mage gets the highest spot because you can't blanket CS so you have to connect, you get a pet nova, you have to be able to time shatters and you have to have good pet management or it will get two shot (in other words, good frost mages control their pet so that people have to choose between them and their pet (instead of like most frost mages who just leave their pet by their side so that they can be tunneled)). Mages have the second most control in this bracket and that's why they get the higher skill cap than other classes on this list. Arcane Mage is next. Arcane Mage is far lower on the skill cap (Fire doesn't even place) because it's fairly one dimensional. You get a blanket so you can use it whenever you need 3 seconds to kill something. You have insane mobility due to your major damage coming from an instant. Long story short, your skill cap is defined by how you use poly making it the lowest skill-cap of the casters by far.
Warlock is next. Lets be real. You guys are putting warlock on top because it's an underpowered class. There is nothing that distinguishes REALLY good warlocks from good warlocks. I can't tell the difference between warlocks at a certain point in arena (and if I can it's because of player ability (timing a fear to save your healer)). Warlocks get a spammy CC that's pretty easy to maintain and then largely tunnel damage or DoT everything in sight. Nothing that makes warlocks a higher skill in end game exists in this bracket. The only thing that puts this higher than the other classes is the fact that you can time burst to get kills.
Next up are paladins. Holy gets the top spot. You can tell the difference between good Holy Paladins and Ret Paladins immediately. Your ability to fake is very important (since you pretty much sit there if you get locked), and the good Holy Paladins are the ones that are 10k+ healing over everyone else in BG's. Judicious use of your CD's, HoJ, using taunt on pets to break out of CC etc all come into play here. Good ret paladins should be on par in healing with the actual healers while still contributing burst and damage. Use of Holy Power stacks still comes into play. Prot Paladin gets a low spot if you're a non-hybrid (so everyone but Acai) because you could be brain-dead and still be indistinguishable from the best prot paladins.
Finally you get warriors. Warriors don't do anything that's anywhere near a skill cap. You get no interrupts, no stuns, no gap closers, CCs etc. Basically the only thing that can make you a good warrior is how you get away for charges (and you pretty much never get to do that).
First, the amount of buttons you can press in different ways (what Imirak mentions). Basically, if you can only press 2 buttons and still be indistinguishable from the other guy pressing 2 buttons then you have a low skill cap. If on the other hand you have a lot of buttons to press that can distinguish you from that other guy then the class has a higher skill cap.
Second, and this is more player specific, is your need to position well. In other words, if you can stand and turret, you have a lower skill-cap in this ONE area. If having superior movement makes a difference then the class has a bit more depth to it and thus a higher skill-cap. The best example of this is Death Knights in Season 5. You could literally just spam Icy Touch, Death Strike and Death Grip and be virtually indistinguishable from every other Death Knight because movement simply did not matter. You could force players to have to come to you or grip them to you every 30 seconds.
Third, and finally, off abilities and resource utilization. In other words, if you're a DPS class that functions off of a single resource mechanic (lets say runic power to maintain the DK analogy) that builds upon itself then you're always going to have a lower skill-cap then a class that has a resource that is constantly driven down and is hard to replenish. For example, a healer usually has a higher skill cap at the level cap meta-game because you can constantly do a better job of conserving mana.
Now, with that being said, how do you go about figuring out who has a higher skill cap? Well, you should take the aggregate of the above three and go from there. The best way to do this, however, is to simply think about the classes. You all play 20s a lot (as do I). There are certain classes where it's apparent when a far better player is playing. Moreover, there are some classes where it really doesn't matter who is playing, the result is always the same. If there's a huge range of skill in a class that usually shows that there's a higher skill cap than the other class. Two important things to take note of here; first, do not take into account if the class is underpowered or overpowered (in that skill-cap measures only the range that differentiates a skilled player from a non-skilled player and NOT the difference in each class to the other), and second, don't take into account player skills (in other words your ability to strafe or move well doesn't make the skill-cap of the class higher, it just means you can move better than the other person).
With that being said, I'll rank mine and explain why I think it is the way it is.
BM Hunter
Balance Druid
Survival Hunter
Feral Druid
Marksman Hunter
Resto Druid
Subtlety Rogue
Elemental Shaman
Holy Priest
Disc Priest
Resto Shaman
Frost Mage
Shadow Priest
Enhancement Shaman
Destruction Warlock
Arcane Mage
Combat Rogue
Ret Paladin
Demonology Warlock
Holy Paladin
Affliction Warlock
Arms Warrior
Fire Mage
Prot Warrior
Prot Paladin
Assassination Rogue
So to explain my reasoning. First, hunters should be very self explanatory. Hunters have the most abilities at this level, and the difference between a good hunter, a great hunter, an average hunter and a bad hunter is highly differentiated. There's a reason everyone can say Biggie was the best hunter without any argument because it's pretty obvious who is really good and who is not. Your ability to use your pet, pet abilities, healing your pet, dismissing your pet, kiting, focus management for burst, scatter, conc etc are all brought into play. Yes, you can complain that hunters get all these abilities but the fact that they are there means good players take advantage of them.
Druids go in order I place them (interspersed with hunters) because they too have a lot of abilities that good druids take advantage of. Feral is all about kiting with roots, healing others/self healing, and using pretty much every ability under the sun. Balance gets a higher skill cap, however, because they have to maintain mana while still using two different schools to be "good." In other words, a good balance druid needs to be healing, DPSing and doing so without losing all of their mana. And even if they do lose all their mana, they need to be able to go cat and start doing some feral damage.
Rogues get the slots they do because of again, the high difference between good and bad players. This is far more apparent in arena than BG's so I'll explain it to those who don't do arena. Rogues (Sub) have the most CC and control in this bracket. Good rogues should be getting saps off, restealthing (that's one of the few things that feral druids never have to worry about that rogues do), gouging, kicking and shadowstepping properly at all times. Good rogues become apparent because many of the abilities that distinguish good rogues at end game exist at this bracket (shadow-step kicking/gouging, restealthing with LoS). Unfortunately, most of these abilities come only with Sub. Mut is basically a bad warrior, and Combat gets a pass only because it requires ToT.
Shamans get third. Dankfury proves this better than anybody. Long story short, Elemental and Resto both have to purge anything and everything they can, ensure they are shearing, allow teammates to kite around Earthbind, DPS and heal, and generally be a nuisance. If you're Ele you get a higher skill cap because you have Thunderstorm and your ability to use it properly makes or breaks your team. Resto gets second because a good resto shaman has to take advantage of melee abilities while still kiting in between the 6 second CD. Enhancement is far lower because outside of using your negligible amount of mana for purges and heals you really are just spamming a few abilities.
Priest is next up. Priests have the ability to do everything. Good priests do a ton of damage, keep everyone up via shields and healing, fear well and still manage to not go OOM. Bad priests put renew, shield and cast a flash heal to heal the person who just lost only 200 HP. Those priests go OOM fast and then wonder why the other priest is not OOM. Holy adds an extra dimension since it gets a stun with Chastise. Disc gets an easier fake with penance. Also, if you're wondering why healer classes are up so high it's because unlike non-casters faking actually matters.
Mages are next. Frost mage gets the highest spot because you can't blanket CS so you have to connect, you get a pet nova, you have to be able to time shatters and you have to have good pet management or it will get two shot (in other words, good frost mages control their pet so that people have to choose between them and their pet (instead of like most frost mages who just leave their pet by their side so that they can be tunneled)). Mages have the second most control in this bracket and that's why they get the higher skill cap than other classes on this list. Arcane Mage is next. Arcane Mage is far lower on the skill cap (Fire doesn't even place) because it's fairly one dimensional. You get a blanket so you can use it whenever you need 3 seconds to kill something. You have insane mobility due to your major damage coming from an instant. Long story short, your skill cap is defined by how you use poly making it the lowest skill-cap of the casters by far.
Warlock is next. Lets be real. You guys are putting warlock on top because it's an underpowered class. There is nothing that distinguishes REALLY good warlocks from good warlocks. I can't tell the difference between warlocks at a certain point in arena (and if I can it's because of player ability (timing a fear to save your healer)). Warlocks get a spammy CC that's pretty easy to maintain and then largely tunnel damage or DoT everything in sight. Nothing that makes warlocks a higher skill in end game exists in this bracket. The only thing that puts this higher than the other classes is the fact that you can time burst to get kills.
Next up are paladins. Holy gets the top spot. You can tell the difference between good Holy Paladins and Ret Paladins immediately. Your ability to fake is very important (since you pretty much sit there if you get locked), and the good Holy Paladins are the ones that are 10k+ healing over everyone else in BG's. Judicious use of your CD's, HoJ, using taunt on pets to break out of CC etc all come into play here. Good ret paladins should be on par in healing with the actual healers while still contributing burst and damage. Use of Holy Power stacks still comes into play. Prot Paladin gets a low spot if you're a non-hybrid (so everyone but Acai) because you could be brain-dead and still be indistinguishable from the best prot paladins.
Finally you get warriors. Warriors don't do anything that's anywhere near a skill cap. You get no interrupts, no stuns, no gap closers, CCs etc. Basically the only thing that can make you a good warrior is how you get away for charges (and you pretty much never get to do that).
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