Haste Stacking EnhanceShammy?

[Revlo]

Been dinkin around on enh today. I've flipped back and forth a few times today on haste, crit, agi stacking. Currently I'm really digging going high agi without sacrificing too much stamina. (might even use RoP) The way Healing Surge scales with agility is really nice. With 131 agility (before gear scaling) I'm able to have non-critting BG heals of about 1040. Granted you can only get about 4 out before popping a mana pot, but with the mediocre damage enh has right now, the big heals sure are useful. I'd say just experiment with the haste, crit, agi and see what works. I'm not absolutely thrilled about the state of enhancement right now, but I sure do feel like they are useful enough to play again (and have fun). The gameplay is something like... Flame Shock, Lava Lash, Purge and Shear, heal someone, heal someone, Purge, LL, Shear..... or something along those lines, heh.

 

[Hartlys]

There's a lot of stigma surrounding EN Shaman currently.

EN Shaman plays a lot like a Dual Wielding Ret Paladin. Ret Paladin has higher overall damage to make up for it's lack of utility, EN Shaman has higher overall Utility to make up for it's lack of damage. Both have excellent off healing. Neither class is weaker when you play that class in favor of it's strengths. EN Shaman is just as competitive as Ret Pally is right now, it just has different strengths.

Tier lists are great for people who don't know how to play, but people who do know how to play can use just about any class above "shit tier" and pass with flying colors.

Personally, I'd go balls-out Max Agility. You'll heal for over half your health and put out crazy damage in between mandatory Wind Shears and Purges. While you will put out less damage than Ret Paladins, you'll likely win duels and get out of situations that Ret Paladins couldn't dream of, so long as you keep a level head and have a general idea of what you're doing.

Keep at it boys, make the Elements proud.

 

[Revlo]

There's a lot of stigma surrounding EN Shaman currently.

EN Shaman plays a lot like a Dual Wielding Ret Paladin. Ret Paladin has higher overall damage to make up for it's lack of utility, EN Shaman has higher overall Utility to make up for it's lack of damage. Both have excellent off healing. Neither class is weaker when you play that class in favor of it's strengths. EN Shaman is just as competitive as Ret Pally is right now, it just has different strengths.

Tier lists are great for people who don't know how to play, but people who do know how to play can use just about any class above "shit tier" and pass with flying colors.

Personally, I'd go balls-out Max Agility. You'll heal for over half your health and put out crazy damage in between mandatory Wind Shears and Purges. While you will put out less damage than Ret Paladins, you'll likely win duels and get out of situations that Ret Paladins couldn't dream of, so long as you keep a level head and have a general idea of what you're doing.

Keep at it boys, make the Elements proud.

I'm not gonna say max agility over all else yet, but man... had several critting heals at clutch moments in an EotS at 1821 each. Without even crit stacking 25% crit is pretty good. With crit stacking it gets up to about 30%, but you do sacrifice some significant stamina and agility.

 

[Bloodinhoo]

Ok ok, i get it, but sadly the issue is that since the bracket is way more health-fed now, damage is mandatory for dps specs. I LOVE enhancement, but the utility they bring is the same that a Resto shammy brings, and yet, resto doesn't go oom, from what i heard.

Still, keep the theorycraft coming. I wanna make the shammy work c:

 

[Revlo]

Ok ok, i get it, but sadly the issue is that since the bracket is way more health-fed now, damage is mandatory for dps specs. I LOVE enhancement, but the utility they bring is the same that a Resto shammy brings, and yet, resto doesn't go oom, from what i heard.

Still, keep the theorycraft coming. I wanna make the shammy work c:

That pretty much is the short of it I think. Restos heal better, are more durable, and the have more utility with Purify Spirit. Though..... if you want to "off damage" (if that is a phrase) their damage is next to nothing. So in a way, you could go back and forth between playing a resto and an enh depending what you were in the mood for. If you feel like doing more healing and utility, play resto. If you feel like doing a little more damage and still have some decent heals and utility, play enh. I think I'll be alternating between the two.

I wouldn't count out haste heavy sets just yet. It really is tempting not only for the reduced cooldowns and faster attack speed, but also for Healing Surges at less than 1.4 seconds. It might just be up to your preference instead of there being a clear "this is the best way."

I love shammies.

 

[Bloodinhoo]

That pretty much is the short of it I think. Restos heal better, are more durable, and the have more utility with Purify Spirit. Though..... if you want to "off damage" (if that is a phrase) their damage is next to nothing. So in a way, you could go back and forth between playing a resto and an enh depending what you were in the mood for. If you feel like doing more healing and utility, play resto. If you feel like doing a little more damage and still have some decent heals and utility, play enh. I think I'll be alternating between the two.

I wouldn't count out haste heavy sets just yet. It really is tempting not only for the reduced cooldowns and faster attack speed, but also for Healing Surges at less than 1.4 seconds. It might just be up to your preference instead of there being a clear "this is the best way."

I love shammies.

So, here's the problem with non-boa haste stacking: The best haste weapon in the game right now, beside boa maces is the caster Dagger from BFD, that gives like 5 haste.

Issue? 5-10 damage. Daggers around that same level have like 18-35ish.

So, from what i noticed, lavalash deals 400% AP damage, which would go from your AP, and while low cooldowns would help having more lavalashes and flameshocks, you would be doing next to no damage in whitehits.

I was considering stacking Agility/AP, with some haste on cloaks, trinks and robe chest, and going Wicked Daggers for more whitehit pressure.

What do you think?

 

[Robert the Druid]

Just going to throw this out there, as someone who knew it wouldn't be that great on completion, haste stacked enhance at 20 isn't going to be as great as you're hoping.

Both at 20 and 29 Enhance is really weak, their only crutch that keeps them decent is their Windshear.

 

[Revlo]

So, here's the problem with non-boa haste stacking: The best haste weapon in the game right now, beside boa maces is the caster Dagger from BFD, that gives like 5 haste.

Issue? 5-10 damage. Daggers around that same level have like 18-35ish.

So, from what i noticed, lavalash deals 400% AP damage, which would go from your AP, and while low cooldowns would help having more lavalashes and flameshocks, you would be doing next to no damage in whitehits.

I was considering stacking Agility/AP, with some haste on cloaks, trinks and robe chest, and going Wicked Daggers for more whitehit pressure.

What do you think?

Now, I'm no theorycrafting expert, but I very much enjoy putting pen to paper and figuring up dps scenarios with different gear options. Your idea is worth exploring at least as an exercise. However, a few things get tricky when theorycrafting PVP gear. A certain stat might help you in one specific encounter, and be horrible most of the rest of the time. If you want to run the numbers as best you can, you might get some hard theoretical results. In the end though, I generally turn to just trying out gear options when answers get fuzzy.

You can of course run several battlegrounds, duel, etc and see what at least appears to work better most of the time. I also regularly test straight dps on WC trash and bosses by myself with the different gear options, analyzing things with an addon like recount. The issue here is that oftentimes PVP isn't about constant dps, but rather burst damage. Really I think it boils down to playing games and getting a feel for what works better. If for instance you have people getting killed just before your heal lands, try some more haste. If you find you're getting burst down in seconds, you might try more stamina. If you consistently land heals on yourself, but continue to fall behind in keeping up with the damage, shoot for bigger heals. The same works in reverse for making decisions on gearing for damage.

I hope this wasn't too much of a big bummer of an answer to a fairly straightforward question. I'd really like to know what you settle on. I was messing around with the type of setup you are talking about (minus the Wicked Daggers) today. I used 2 McGowans, 1 haste trinket, haste belt, Foreman's Gloves, and DPR which got me to 8.32% haste. Cooldown on LL was 9.69 seconds. Attack speed down to 2.59 seconds. All this out of battlegrounds. In trying this against going straight agility and reasonable crit, the agi and crit set had fairly consistently higher numbers. But..... Healing Surges were down to 1.38 seconds and of course LL would be ready .71 seconds earlier than without stacking haste beyond the McGowans. There can be some value in that in a PVP setting for sure, so I dunno.

I know, I said a whole lot only to really say nothing, hehe. You can see why it takes me a long time to do anything. You seem like you are on top of things. If you have the time, I'd try and get the gear you are talking about an give it a go. I'll give it a shot as well as I have time. One thing to specifically keep in mind is that if you plan on off-healing and purging any decent amount (and I personally would, given enhance's relatively low damage with any gear) your white damage will be on hold while casting HS and Purges. If you want to just keep it to straight ahead dps, I would really test out options pretty thoroughly on elite mobs. Recount, or some other addon, will tell you what kind of results you are really getting in white hits and how much that counts in the grand scheme of things.

Nice artwork btw!

 

[Phrontistery]

Razor's Edge is 13-26, 4 str, 2 haste pre-scaling too.
Can't get a pop right now to check post-scaling.

 

[Srs]

So, here's my Foreman's Farming Guide:


Step 1) Time travel back to summer 2011, and don't put all your f2ps on one wow account. Try to spread out your f2ps over multiple wow accounts—agility users on one account, and your strength users on another, and that would leave your intellect users on yet another.

Step 2) Failing Step 1, at least do this with your new toons.

Step 3) Using the bnet launcher, launch the account with your agility user, then the account with your strength user. Log in. If you've got a craptop, use fullscreen windowed mode even though you get slower frame rates in normal fullscreen, swapping between the two is much faster.

Step 4) Use your, or someone else's p2p to group your two f2ps. They can even be on different servers. Use /invite Player@Server-Name to invite crossrealm without hassle.

Step 4.5) You are now a scumbag multiboxer, but it's cool. You'll see.

Step 5) Get your two twinks out to the Foreman. You could even summon one out there to Moonbrook using the summoning stone, I think.

Step 6) Kill Foreman and all the zombies (they have cool stuff too).

Step 7) When Leggings drop, loot them on your strength user. When Gloves drop, loot them on your agility user. This way you don't have to kill him 200 times on each toon. You've got the right toon in the right place to loot the right item. You'll save yourself many tears, and tons of savings in busted up laptops.

Step 8) Profit.


You also need to weigh whether it's worth it killing anyone that wonders in there flagged for pvp. You might stop them from competing with you, but it might also attract unwanted attention. I may have left something out—or got some of the details wrong—but you get the idea.

 

[Palonabanana]

I am of the opinion that with damage slightly scaled down and health pools largely scaled up, pvp is currently less about burst and more about doing constant stream of damage. In this spirit, I theorycrafted enh sham and the conclusion is: a) crit is bad since in pvp it means 150% usual damage instead of 200%, b) haste is okay, worth 2x as much as crit point for point, c) primary stat (agi) is king, worth 5x as much as a point of crit, d) BoA maces are far superior to any daggers, but dual Axe of the Enforcer surpasses them slightly.

 

[Bloodinhoo]

I am of the opinion that with damage slightly scaled down and health pools largely scaled up, pvp is currently less about burst and more about doing constant stream of damage. In this spirit, I theorycrafted enh sham and the conclusion is: a) crit is bad since in pvp it means 150% usual damage instead of 200%, b) haste is okay, worth 2x as much as crit point for point, c) primary stat (agi) is king, worth 5x as much as a point of crit, d) BoA maces are far superior to any daggers, but dual Axe of the Enforcer surpasses them slightly.

So, the true question is:

Is enhancement capable of bringing this constant stream of damage?

 

[Revlo]

I am of the opinion that with damage slightly scaled down and health pools largely scaled up, pvp is currently less about burst and more about doing constant stream of damage. In this spirit, I theorycrafted enh sham and the conclusion is: a) crit is bad since in pvp it means 150% usual damage instead of 200%, b) haste is okay, worth 2x as much as crit point for point, c) primary stat (agi) is king, worth 5x as much as a point of crit, d) BoA maces are far superior to any daggers, but dual Axe of the Enforcer surpasses them slightly.

Nice work. Nice to know someone figured up the values. Even in just goofing around with different gear in battlegrounds agility seemed way more valuable to damage and heals.

 

[Revlo]

So, the true question is:

Is enhancement capable of bringing this constant stream of damage?

Compared to other dps classes, it is far behind. I think the only way to make them a value to a team is to off heal and manage interrupts and purges while using Flame Shock and Lava Lash. A little depth to the playstyle is fun anyhow.

 

[Mediocre]

Compared to other dps classes, it is far behind. I think the only way to make them a value to a team is to off heal and manage interrupts and purges while using Flame Shock and Lava Lash. A little depth to the playstyle is fun anyhow.

From my experience so far your assessment is spot on, while by no means are enhance top of the pile I feel we are more viable than before.

 

[Bop]

Yeah, Enhance is in a better spot than in MoP. White hits got buffed by a large amount across the board, and Enhance is supposed to be the king of white hits.

For that reason, I'd say that Haste has enough value to be stacked fairly highly. But overall, the most important thing should just be having high damage 1handers - meaning non-daggers.

 

[RedfootKP]

Nvm.

 

[Revlo]

From my experience so far your assessment is spot on, while by no means are enhance top of the pile I feel we are more viable than before.

I just hope enh healing doesn't get nerfed too hard in the near future. If it does, they likely won't be much of an asset. :/

 

[Bloodinhoo]

Yeah, Enhance is in a better spot than in MoP. White hits got buffed by a large amount across the board, and Enhance is supposed to be the king of white hits.

For that reason, I'd say that Haste has enough value to be stacked fairly highly. But overall, the most important thing should just be having high damage 1handers - meaning non-daggers.

I don't know, ever since the squish on the damage, 1.80 daggers seem like a nice alternative for me, because you can deal damage quickly. While 2.60 seems a good idea, the haste doesn't help to get into a good threshhold, unless it's the boa mace.

Can someone theorycraft a shaman with full haste gear on ( Dpr, dual boa maces, haste robes and so on ) and say how much attack speed they have?

 

[Bop]

I don't know, ever since the squish on the damage, 1.80 daggers seem like a nice alternative for me, because you can deal damage quickly. While 2.60 seems a good idea, the haste doesn't help to get into a good threshhold, unless it's the boa mace.

Can someone theorycraft a shaman with full haste gear on ( Dpr, dual boa maces, haste robes and so on ) and say how much attack speed they have?

Yeah, but you're not going to have the best uptime on classes without Frost Shock, so High Base damage seems to make the most amount of sense to me.

It's very likely that Dasha's build with Agi/Crit is going to be the most efficient for Enhancement Shamans. I doubt any one stat "cheese" will be better than a bulky agility set.