Global Warming discussion

[Powerglove]

Go veggie

lol...



















































no

 

[Zuty]

I keep hearing that vegetarian's are in a down fall. I doubt I could live without meat; while I do not go to fast-food, steak and fish are so good.



~Zuty

 

[Druiddroid]

I already covered this.I know, I know, it's a wall of text lol but I do my best to space it out in a visually pleasing manner.

i'm not talking about business, i'm talking about the human population taking a hit because we didn't switch to renewable energy or attempt to conserve energy.



we need to switch to renewable energy now to delay the emptying of fossil fuels. once we run out of fossil fuels, sure there might be 'new areas for money' or w/e, but it's NOT POSSIBLE to just create energy from nothing. renewable energy alone cannot satisfy our energy needs. but we need it to help reduce the amount of fossil fuels we use. our population WILL dramatically deacrease if we run out of fossil fuels. we cannot support our current population without them.



also, emissions of CO2, while they are relatively small in comparison to natural forces, can create an impact. we don't really know what the true power of greenhouse gases is. i sure don't want to find out, though.



therefore i'm all for attempting to create alternative sources of energy. the sooner we start, the later we become extinct.

 

[Animalmother]

is it possible to start a "global-cooling" situation? all i'm saying is, is that when it gets hot, you can only get so naked before you're cuffed off and sent to spend the night in county. when it's cold you can always dress warmer...and this coming from the guy who lives in oklahoma ><



2 years ago we have a 30+ day stretch in which it was 100+ degrees every day. effing BLOW...but of course i dont blame that on global warming. i call it SUMMER. wtf...

 

[Naturaltalnt]

imme laugh when we run out of fossil fuels, we will pretty much die, well you all will. I live in the middle of no where, theres around 80 house...15 farms, I'll go work as a ranch hand...but all the people in the citys its GG.



Without fuel you can't get any where, and most people are to lazy to make it more than 2 miles on a bike.

 

[Adt]

i, personally, don't believe in global warming.



but i do believe that energy conservation is a good thing.

as is recycling.

as is using less paper.

and cutting back on emissions / pollution.

and pretty much anything else people are trying to do to help this "global warming" cause.



it's not like they're doing things for this cause that are either HARMING the planet or you in some way. or that they're completely wasting their efforts. it all has positive effects. just not the positive effects that they are aiming for with the whole global warming crap.

 

[Powerglove]

imme laugh when we run out of fossil fuels, we will pretty much die, well you all will. I live in the middle of no where, theres around 80 house...15 farms, I'll go work as a ranch hand...but all the people in the citys its GG.



Without fuel you can't get any where, and most people are to lazy to make it more than 2 miles on a bike.

we can fuel cars with more than just fossil fuels

 

[Naturaltalnt]

Barely. Most electric or hydro cars still require gas..only like 1/10 of a normal car, but its still required.



Don't even get me started on solar cars

 

[Juke]

There's too much oldwhiteman money tied up in oil.

As soon as all those old white guys get up off their ass and diversify their funds into new "responsible" energy, the sooner we'll have our "Scientific Breakthrough"



There are whole countries that live solely off the export of oil.. Imagine what happens if, within the year, we eliminate the need for that oil..



People laughed and shook their heads at Keanu Reeves and Morgan Freeman in Chain Reaction. And that was almost 15 years ago...

The premise isn't complete science fiction

 

[Magrim]

Hey guys as I run for city council I'm looking up info on the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 and there's some nice tax credits for increasing energy efficiency(up to 30% of cost, $1,500 max.)



http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=products.pr_tax_credits#s1



If energy prices also rise dramatically due to increased demand and constrained supply, business impacts could include:

Reduced profits due to high operating costs.

Decline of sales of energy-using products.

Loss of competitiveness in energy intensive businesses.

Disruptions in supply chains as suppliers are unable to meet cost obligations or go bankrupt.





Market trends suggest that the demand for energy resources will rise dramatically over the next 25 years:

Global demand for all energy sources is forecast to grow by 57% over the next 25 years.

U.S. demand for all types of energy is expected to increase by 31% within 25 years.

By 2030, 56% of the world’s energy use will be in Asia.

Electricity demand in the U.S. will grow by at least 40% by 2032.

New power generation equal to nearly 300 (1,000MW) power plants will be needed to meet electricity demand by 2030.

Currently, 50% of U.S. electrical generation relies on coal, a fossil fuel; while 85% of U.S. greenhouse gas emissions result from energy-consuming activities supported by fossil fuels.

 

[Druiddroid]

we can fuel cars with more than just fossil fuels

it might take a long time before we can make cars that don't burn fossil fuels and mass produce them. possibly.



you can't just say that we're going to do stuff. there are things that are possible, and things that aren't possible. maybe there is no way that we can run cars simply on solar or water or wind or corn or w/e other options are out there. we don't know yet. yes, humans are intelligent, but we are still limited by what we have...

 

[Zuty]

While we are limited to what we have, its not like we don't have alternative energy ideas on the back burner. The only reason they haven't been funded is because of collaborated greed of the oil company and the government. Although, I don't see ethanol getting off the ground.



On the subject of our extinction; humans are resilient, even if there is a glint of hope we will continue to survive. Of course, millions may die, but we won't get to the point of genocide because of the lack of fuel. Sure, we may get close to it, but eventually someone will say 'Wait....What are we doing?'



~Zuty

 

[Druiddroid]

On the subject of our extinction; humans are resilient, even if there is a glint of hope we will continue to survive. Of course, millions may die, but we won't get to the point of genocide because of the lack of fuel. Sure, we may get close to it, but eventually someone will say 'Wait....What are we doing?'



~Zuty

genocide may happen as the amount of fuel produced begins to dwindle because everyone wants a piece of the pie, and there's only so much pie to hand out.



war is caused by jealousy most of the time. if everyone had resources then there wouldn't be as much war i would assume.



also, humans may seem resilient, but we really aren't ready for a change in the earth's atmosphere. we live in comfortable conditions now, if there is an increase or decrease in temperature that builds up due to the nature of the atmosphere, then we may end up killing ourselves via greenhouse gases. Or we could kill ourselves simply by changing the configuration of gases. we take oxygen and nitrogen for granted.



humans have gotten to the phase where we are practically unstoppable. there is nothing in our way that will be able to become as dominant as us. just like the dinosaurs. we might grow stronger and stronger, then be wiped by something very simple (humans have very specific needs in order to live). the most resilient forms of life are typically smaller and can withstand extreme conditions and stay out of a predator's way.



not only that, but war may cause human extinction as well. using a nuke that simply disrupts the earth's orbit will be tragic for all of us.

 

[Powerglove]

you seem to be a little stuck on this doomsday idea

 

[Druiddroid]

you seem to be a little stuck on this doomsday idea

meh, i'm not saying it's going to happen soon, but it will happen..



i guess the point of all my pessimistic ranting is that we should start conserving energy now, and as much energy as we can as possible to prolong the human race for as long as we can.

 

[fuzzles]

Yesterday was incredibly busy... got a lot done, but still very busy. Didn't have a chance to make any responses.

Well, I'm pleased it hit a dignified tone. That was really all I wanted.



As far as the discussion goes lets put the "free market" in charge of everything including policemen, firefighters, roads, schools and all other governmental functions and charge people no taxes at all. You wanna stop from being raped just wave some cash down on the counter before hand, you want to drive on the roads? No problem toll booth every 10ft. Accidentally forget the monthly firefighter bill, no problem watch your house burn down. Wait, I got an idea, go live in a country that does that and come back and report in a year how great it was if you're still alive.



As far as energy consumption goes what you purposed to do is frivolous regardless of the ""not so free" "free market"" of electricity.



I don't know if you know this or not but electricity is heavily regulated because people got sick of watching their rates get jacked sky high anytime one electric company would suffocate out another one. The free market failed there and it fails in a lot of ways. Sometimes government can step in set up regulation wait till companies get a firm market share and step out like they did with the emerging airline industry. Sometimes not.



This last summer I ran for State Assembly (as a Republican) during the peak of the oil crisis and went around to all the local governing bodies meetings and their committees and our country was literally falling apart because gas went from 1.95 to 3.95. If it would of hit 6 we would of gone under and I am not kidding.



What you may not understand is that oil is used for many different things besides pumping the engine of an oversized vehicle. From life saving plastics to the roads we drive our cars on. It's much easier to use fuel alternatives for cars than other things like jet liners.



What do you do when you're on the highway committee and the cost of blacktop triples and revenue drops 5%? You start driving on roads falling apart, on bridges that collapse...



I don't think I really need to go into the ill effects of car emissions but I never felt like I was getting a good dose of vitamins sucking in the exhaust of all the exhaust from the traffic downtown.

This term and definition should seem familiar:

Appeal to ridicule

Appeal to ridicule, also called the Horse Laugh, is a logical fallacy which presents the opponent's argument in a way that appears ridiculous, often to the extent of creating a straw man of the actual argument. For example:



If Einstein's theory of relativity is right, that would mean that when I drive my car it gets shorter and heavier the faster I go. That's crazy! (This is, in fact, true, but the effect is so minuscule a human observer will not notice.)



If the theory of evolution were true, that would mean that your great great great grandfather was a gorilla! (False, since the theory does not state humans evolved from gorillas, and clearly states evolution took many more than 5 generations.)

Logical fallacies are okay for humorous satire but not appropriate in a genuine discussion.



Since I was not asked what I believe to be the role of government I did not fully answer. Please note you ignored something that I did say, however.

Pretty much the only things you need to prevent to make human greed work for humanity's betterment is the development of monopolies and the abuse of workers.

Sir, I am a libertarian and you have attempted to paint me as an anarchist. Believe me there is quite a difference.



I'm not going to type a wall of text articulating my views on the role of government. That is a discussion that could go on for a very long time. To put it quickly, I believe in the tenth amendment.

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

The Founding Fathers understood why this is important, but the good fight has been losing to establishment politics since Hamilton versus Jefferson.



Now look at where we're at. Counting Obama's recent stimulus bill and the first one sponsored by Bush, we have allocated almost 4 trillion dollars to "necessary spending" in order to avert an economic crisis. I am of course including the bail-outs.



Said crisis has not been fixed. The Dow and every other means of measuring economic growth created continues to show decline while inflation continues. 53% of Americans currently believe we will enter a depression similar to the one experienced in the 1930s and that number will most likely grow.



Consider now that someone like me would have suggested from the start making a tax holiday for the income and capital gains tax. Doing away with the capital gains and income taxes for over two years would have been less expensive for our government than the money we've wasted on failed "emergency bills," and yet their is no imaginable reasoning to use to suggest doing so would not have been immensely helpful on economic matters.



So you see I am not a fool.



My points about using the free market in the areas I specified were comments isolated to that topic - I never specified what I think of police, firefighters, or other essential social services. Ironically I did already mention I have a problem with real pollution (as opposed to CO2 emmissions).



Don't pretend I support doing away with government involvelment in entirity and then use that illusion as your "opponent."

 

[fuzzles]

I would like to take a second post to point out that so many people have the following strong reactions.



1. People just go orgasmic over this concept of renewable energy like it's Jesus Christ himself returning to banish the evil from our world.



2. The idea of us running out of fossil fuels before developing renewable energy just seems to scare people to death, like there's no possible way we could deal with such a catastrophic horror.



Look, renewable energy would be great but only if it's worth replacing current methods. If it's too expensive, we shouldn't use it. Particularly if there's no visible sunset on the use of oil and coal (which is cheap and efficient).



If we ran out of fossil fuels, we'd have a need for a new source of energy. The entire market would be demanding for a supply and someone somewhere will find a way to provide it. No armageddon, no Great Depression, no dead families. Just a phase.



EDIT: about Obama's stupid bill, businesses are going to "go green" if it's financially worth doing whether they get a tax write-off or not. The obvious way to help the economy is to give huge tax breaks to all businesses but that would value the economy over environmentalism, something Obama has yet to display.



$1500 is a drop in the bucket for most businesses. Sure, if there's a way to incentify "going green" tax breaks are the best way to do it, and I'm very happy that he's doing that rather than raising taxes on the businesses who don't. But it's kind of a silly thing to focus on in a time of economic crisis, don't you think?



But I think it's already been established that Obama doesn't care about the economy as long as his voters think all this green crap and random expansions of government in any conceivable way has a positive effect on the economy.

 

[Druiddroid]

If we ran out of fossil fuels, we'd have a need for a new source of energy. The entire market would be demanding for a supply and someone somewhere will find a way to provide it. No armageddon, no Great Depression, no dead families. Just a phase.

where would we find it?



our population will be increasing as fossil fuel count decreases. once we start to run out of places to find fossil fuels, our population will no longer have the energy it needs to fully function as it does now. our population will decrease through suffering.



not only that, but we don't know the extent of what the greenhouse gases are doing. we are piling uncommon earth gases into the atmosphere, on top of the natural balance, and if we do consume all or most of the fossil fuels, there may be a lasting effect.



maybe you know something i don't. because i don't think we're going to be able to have tons of renewable energy. we don't have the technology.



if there even is a way to find a reliable, numerous renewable source of energy, it would be better to find it out now rather than when we're fucked.

 

[Zuty]

I guess the point of all my pessimistic ranting is that we should start conserving energy now, and as much energy as we can as possible to prolong the human race for as long as we can.

I agree that we do need to conserve what little resources we have, but it is highly unlikely that we will. Greed has corrupted our governments (see how I just don't toss the US in there) Its not that we are ignorant to the fact that we are killing ourselves and future generations to come, we just have so much else on our plate that energy is at the back of our minds. (Which is bad) Sure oil prices may have dropped, but they are steadily increasing and what effects will our drilling for more oil cause on the ecosystem? In retrospect, we are preparing our own suicide.



Sure, nukes and pollution will wipe out a large portion of the world, but its highly unlikely that everyone will just die out. The worlds population is rather large (just over 6 billion, which may not sound like a lot at first. But people are people, don't compare 6 billion to money) the odds of a few people surviving a nuclear holocaust are probably good; someone, somwhere will manage to find shelter safe enough to house them from the effects of the fallout. This may yield a generation post-apocalypse who would eventually be able to venture out into the destroied world and help rebuild society. Sure its a stretch, but with hope (and little pinch of fairy dust) anything is possible.



But I also doubt a nuclear holocaust will ever take place. A zombie infestation or even God smiting us down are more logical in my opinion. (Both of which are fictional, but I digress) I believe in global warming as a natural occurance on any planet (If the conditions are meet) and I also believe that humans have helped speed up the process. Who knows, maybe in 100 years the polar icecaps will melt and flood the world. But if that is to happen, the flooding would be slow enough to stay one step ahead of it (The Day After Tomorrow; not the best example of what global warming will do ...) Humans will establish refugees on mountain tops which will eventually become islands. Thousands of years later, the hero will return wielding the sword which smites all that is evil. The hero will then travel the seas of the world and assemble the legendary triforce and use its power to exterminate the evil king of darkness, Ganon. The world will then be ruled by the legendary hero and princess Zelda.



*I'm tired and have been playing A LOT of Wind Waker as of late*



~Zuty

 

[fuzzles]

where would we find it?



our population will be increasing as fossil fuel count decreases. once we start to run out of places to find fossil fuels, our population will no longer have the energy it needs to fully function as it does now. our population will decrease through suffering.



not only that, but we don't know the extent of what the greenhouse gases are doing. we are piling uncommon earth gases into the atmosphere, on top of the natural balance, and if we do consume all or most of the fossil fuels, there may be a lasting effect.



maybe you know something i don't. because i don't think we're going to be able to have tons of renewable energy. we don't have the technology.



if there even is a way to find a reliable, numerous renewable source of energy, it would be better to find it out now rather than when we're fucked.

Of course I don't know what technology can replace it and of course you don't. Our politicians sure as hell don't know how either.



If you were to describe the abilities of a microchip to someone alive 100 years ago, even a very bright person, would that person have any idea how it'd be done? The obvious answer is no. I refer to my previous statement: there is no creative force greater than that of a free market in need. It's been proven time and time again that a free market with a need will put forth grand and previously unthinkable innovations, from powerful vehicles to software to the discovery of new science.



My point: don't fear the future and don't vote against your country's economy. You'll end up like France.