Gearing Standards

AlbinoCow said:
In the past many, many, many f2ps use the term pay to win or so on and whether it is 15$ a month or 5$ u are paying for an advantage, u would be hypocritical if u now use veteran accounts to get those same chants and so on.
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Umm... according to who? I'm not being rude or anything, but that's not true. I do understand that many people feel differently about vet accounts, but calling someone a hypocrite because they may choose to do something different than you is wrong. At the end of they day, we can discuss vet accounts and so on but just because someone may choose to take advantage of something doesn't mean they are wrong, especially when everyone else also has the opportunity to take advantage of that same thing as well. It's just a matter of choice, that's it.
 
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Klinda said:
Umm... according to who? I'm not being rude or anything, but that's not true. I do understand that many people feel differently about vet accounts, but calling someone a hypocrite because they may choose to do something different than you is wrong. At the end of they day, we can discuss vet accounts and so on but just because someone may choose to take advantage of something doesn't mean they are wrong, especially when everyone else also has the opportunity to take advantage of that same thing as well. It's just a matter of choice, that's it.
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According to all the ppl who have said it...
 
There are no standards, and people wouldn't follow them even if there were. Most people will just use what ever the best they can get is. Now, if you're talking about dueling/arena/wargames/premade standards, sure, I can see how that would work. Those will need to be decided on a case by case basis. For the vast majority of solo and randoms, everyone will just use the best they have. No one cares about fair, unless someone has something they are unwilling/unable to get.

F2P don't stop using GF gear because it would give them an unfair advantage. Most people would find that ridiculous. It's the same here. I've seen people advocating keeping it F2P, and I've seen people wanting others to not use enchants. If you want to be 100% fair, then stop using GF gear and chants, of course that isn't going to happen. Stop playing broken FotM classes, also not going to happen.

TLDR: Unless it's some kind of even with agreed upon rules, there are no rules, and trying to make them would be a waste of time anyway.
 
Neon, not sure about player quality atm I haven't been able to play much on AP in the past few months. As you likely know from your own time there, both sides are viable. Lankypuss and Deej have improved Alliance side dramatically.

Bop I hear where you're coming from and relate to your point of view.

Veteran accounts are a savvy investment, no question about it. We can talk about what gearing standards should be, all we like. It will come down to the rest of the bracket showing us the majority standard. Only time can reveal that.

As has already been stated many times, having multiples gearsets is the simplest solution in the interim. I'm not interested in any moral high-ground, or any moral conversation at all for that matter. I'm going to make use of the Veteran option and I'm going to play competitively. I will make my own decisions about what gear/enchants/professions I'd like to use at any given time based on what I'm facing. If I'm judged for that and written off by people so be it.

AlbinoCow we just have to wait and see. I think it would be great to see F2P premades making a regular statement in BGs again.



For the record; my computer was a gift, I pay for neither internet or electricity and I live alone.
 
Bop said:
No one can find a moral high ground by saying they are going Veteran to farm Starter Editions.

It's not good logic to say that because they say, so it must be. They could very well be lying, or ignoring the obvious fact that farming Starter Editions is an eventuality of becoming a P2P Veteran Account.

And regardless of what they say or think to themselves, they will be utilizing an advantage over Starter Edition accounts that cannot pay to get the heirlooms.

By no means is this an argument that no one should become a Veteran account. In fact, it isn't even an argument that declares the use of P2P heirlooms as wrong.

My point is that you cannot find the moral high ground by becoming a Veteran Account and utilizing all of the advantages therein. You are morally bankrupt in terms of relations with F2Ps, at that point.

You are of the same shade of color as P2P Subbed 29's.

Now, go out and make the decision for yourselves. Don't let anyone on a forum tell you how to play - but make no mistake, you're abusing Starter Editions by doing so.

Don't piss on our backs and tell us it's rain.
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I really don't want to make this a p2p issue again, but if you can't spare less than 50 dollars for an account, you should probably get a job, work more hours, or find a 2nd job.
 
My own personal opinion on the matter:

There are pros and cons by going veteran, I feel the veteran addition is great for twinking esepcially for free to plays. Whenever we get vs a 29 premade its great to know that they don't have an enchant advantage and the player with more skill and awareness will win rather than gear carrying players to increase their ego about how good they are.

This will dramatically decrease the difference between veterans and 29s however with veterans being on par with 29s, its immensily hard for pure f2ps since now they basically have to face more 29s, especially in pugs. Quite ironic how a lot of the players who were struggling vs the 29s are suddenly in their position vs their fellow pure f2ps.

I don't care for morals. Its just a video game. However what fellow twinks such as Albino and Bmac are trying to say is that this bracket is has the potential to be the most balanced bracket for twinking. If you count out 29s as well as p2p enchants, we basically have an extremely balanced bracket with class diversity. The big issue with these broken enchants is that even if all players had them, this bracket would be so dull with players still complaining. By this I mean the actual skill of the player would be a lesser factor for the out come in fights where as the enchants would be the main reason.

How I see it is that even if all the players had the enchants for free, it would make a very dull bracket. Sure the veteran accounts will close the gap between 20s and 29s but I hope people do not take advantage of it and use it against pure f2ps. There has been an urge for activity and competitive games by people like me who realise the potential of FREE TO PLAY pvp (unenchanted.)
I really believe that f2p twinking requires trust and understanding of players to know when to use thier enchanted gear and when not to. To the players who went veteran just to "pwn" anyone and everyone, you're basically the same as a 29 in my eyes. If you look at other brackets you'll see how broken enchants really are e.g. 19s. Us beings f2ps we have the advantage of having no enchants resulting in games that are mostly decided by a persons skill. This is why I had huge hopes for 6.1 as I hoped people would understand how balanced and great f2ps can be when you take enchants out.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with playing veteran imo as long as theres understanding thag foe better games use minimal enchants. Therefore I encourage all veterans to make 2 gear sets. One with all you enchants and one with pure f2p gear, and only using the enchanted sets when your enemy team has 2 or more 29s THAN your team. This bracket has so much potential to be so fun but if veterans turn enchants towards f2ps, it will work in the opposite direction. Hopefully people will understand :)

TLDR: I once used to know a lady who had and sold very large melons.
 
Granted, my posts are long. I understand that it may be difficult to read all of them through - so I would simply ask that if you didn't read and comprehend my post, please don't reply to it.

That's just a waste of time for everyone involved.

I'm going to summarize a few points that are being constantly repeated ad nauseam to me, and which I have already addressed before - multiple times.

1. No where do I convey the opinion nor do I intend to convince people that they should not roll a Veteran account.

If you have gotten that feeling from reading one of my posts, then you did not read it very well. At all. Please re-read it again before you reply to this post. That way, you save me some time having to reply saying "Please re-read my other post." Gosh, it's like I addressed your point in the past! I must be a time traveler or something.

2. The amount of money is completely irrelevant, as you are a Pay-to-play the moment you pay any amount of money to Blizzard. That is common sense. The amount of people trying to trivialize this is absurd. Let me break it down for you and make it really, really, no but seriously REALLY, simple.

Paying 15 dollars a month... IS PAYING TO PLAY.
Paying 5 dollars once... IS PAYING TO PLAY.
Not paying money... IS FREE TO PLAY.

Your argument is that the difference between 15 dollars a month and the one time payment of 5 dollars is somehow relevant.

You are no longer a member of the Free to Play community once your Free to Play account has... PAID MONEY.

3. I hold the opinion that you can and SHOULD do whatever you want in a video game.

My opinion on this matter, AS I HAVE SAID ABOVE AND IS APPARENTLY WRITTEN IN INVISIBLE INK, only has as much weight as the reader gives it.

29's are playing a game in such a way that makes it fun for them. It, however, forces Trials to play at a massive disadvantage. #parallelism

Do you wish 29's made F2P Restricted characters so that the bracket could be balanced? Me too :D

4. You cannot factually or logically say that you are not taking an advantage over Starter Edition accounts.

In fact, not a SINGLE one of you has made that statement because it is empirically NOT TRUE.

If you were going to pay money to have an advantage over other players, why haven't each of you rolled 29's? It's 15 a month, surely that's not very much relative to Internet, the costs of a computer, the costs of housing, etc. Why don't you get jobs and pay for the subscription?

I guarantee you'll be even stronger than other Veterans then. Maybe even roll a Brewmaster. Do what you gotta do to win, I suppose.

TO SUMMARIZE:

The point of my posts is to showcase the potential Cons of using Veteran accounts in the 20-29 bracket. So far, we have only heard Pros.

The purpose of my argument is to take away any feelings of moral justification that players may have towards becoming Veteran accounts.

You do not have the moral high ground, but as many of you point out - this is just a video game, do what you want. If crushing opponents is fun for you, then do it. How is that so hard to understand? If you don't want to crush opponents and want to fight them on even ground, then don't do it.

Veteran accounts definitely have an advantage over Starter Edition accounts. No amount of excuses change that fact.

~Another thing to keep in mind is that the players who organize events do so for the F2P community. It becomes a lot harder to manage and to insure there is no cheating once all of us have a "easy-mode" button they can press once they get emotional.~

Bop of Mok'Nathal
 
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Its sad that i've already experience a vet account player taking advantage of f2ps in an eots game yesterday. Im not going to call out that particular person's toon but he was playing a rogue on horde which horde has about 4 29s and alliance has 1 :(
 
i dont see why this is even a debate or a thing, f2ps have always complained that enchants are "broken" or "overpowered" you guys don't seem to understand that blizzard isn't going to cater to you guys a single bit, they don't care about twinks nevermind people that contribute absolutely nothing to the game, a twink to begin with was getting the most "overpowered items" you could get on a toon that's what the definition of a twink was.

sure the bracket would be less bursty if people rolled in f2p gear but then you also have to go into the fact that ferals even in f2p gear can crit for 2.5k ferocious bites, so the gear alone isn't going to do anything, i mean what're you going to do next tell everyone to not roll a certain class? play how you want to play, don't try to force or try to encourage people to play a certain way, let everyone play their own way, if they decide they want to play the way you are great, if not, don't try to force people's play styles
 
How is this even related to the actual topic? You don't seem to have read the points raised by people or read it then ignored it to post about why blizzard doesnt care for f2ps. No on here is forcing anyone to not roll veteran nor telling them how to play. The op is about balanced, competitive games between f2ps so if theres no actual helpful or meaningful thing go say, don't post it.
 
Kincaide said:
I'd like to talk more about your perspective so that I understand it and so that you don't think I'm dismissing it out of hand. Why is it that you feel that five dollars is a prohibitive cost of entry for people who own a computer and pay for a computer, electricity, and an internet connnection? Forgive me if this is asking you to repeat points you've made before; it's been and continues to be a very long week for me.
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its not matter of Money, its simply morals.

if u choose to take that advantage its fine, but its definitly not fair.
 
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KainUFC said:
The question I'm asking myself and scanning all the recent threads to find ideas and answer for is, "where do we go from here?"

I have so many options now...sticking with F2P, upgrading one-time, resubbing and making veteran twinks, but what I really want to know is, what direction will the community go, where will the fun games be played and in what fashion, etc. Thats what I'm excited to see. Its been months since F2p bracket has seemed viable so this is an exciting time for me.
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only time will tell, i think its gonna be pretty much the same, just with some more "p2ps".
 
Klinda said:
Umm... according to who? I'm not being rude or anything, but that's not true. I do understand that many people feel differently about vet accounts, but calling someone a hypocrite because they may choose to do something different than you is wrong. At the end of they day, we can discuss vet accounts and so on but just because someone may choose to take advantage of something doesn't mean they are wrong, especially when everyone else also has the opportunity to take advantage of that same thing as well. It's just a matter of choice, that's it.
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same with p2ps, its just matter of choice, just acknowledge u will have an advantage over the majority of the bracket.

if u atacked p2ps be4 becuz they choose to take that advantage then yes ur an hipocrite
 
Dform said:
i dont see why this is even a debate or a thing, f2ps have always complained that enchants are "broken" or "overpowered" you guys don't seem to understand that blizzard isn't going to cater to you guys a single bit, they don't care about twinks nevermind people that contribute absolutely nothing to the game, a twink to begin with was getting the most "overpowered items" you could get on a toon that's what the definition of a twink was.

sure the bracket would be less bursty if people rolled in f2p gear but then you also have to go into the fact that ferals even in f2p gear can crit for 2.5k ferocious bites, so the gear alone isn't going to do anything, i mean what're you going to do next tell everyone to not roll a certain class? play how you want to play, don't try to force or try to encourage people to play a certain way, let everyone play their own way, if they decide they want to play the way you are great, if not, don't try to force people's play styles
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theres no doubt the bracket would be more balanced if all rolled f2p gear even with imbalanced classes/spec.

But at end of the day we all know that will never happen so we should just carry on with our lives and wut we think its best.
Ofc in moments of frustation there will be rants saying how unfair it is, but thats life.
 
most of my bgs are either doing nothing while losing against 29 premades, or doing nothing while the 29s on my team owns the other team. there have been some competitive matches but only because both teams have good 29s fighting each other.

i dont play on arena that often because everytime i do, i have to fight with 29s and most likely lose. i have not seen much 20s in arena probably because they are tired of fighting against 29s and stop queueing for it too.

i am actually very keen to upgrade just to get all the heirlooms and some cheap enchants (though not the best ones cos it will take a long time to get myself and are expensive in the auction house) cos of this situation. but then i think about all the other aspects of the game that i will never achieve (such as leveling to 90 and getting all the other achievements) if i just limit myself to gearing my level 20s. i cant decide on what i want to do with 1 month of game time and that is the only reason why im not upgrading for now
 
for pug bg's eventually most ppl will have b2p gear . but for organized f2p events i see no fault in restricting it to pure f2p gear in order to promote activity . ( unless you want to let the poor fire mage use crit enchants on his rings )
 
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