GB leaves the EU!
- Thread starter Mol
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telle
fella
@Lanky @FrozenWill
"We hold these truths to be sacred and undeniable; that all men are created equal and independent, that from the equal creation they derive rights inherent and inalienable, among which are the preservation of life, and liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."
-Thomas Jefferson
"Fourscore and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal."
-Abraham Lincoln
"All men are by nature equal, all made of the same earth by one Workman; and however we may deceive ourselves, as dear unto God is the poor peasant as the mighty prince."
-Plato
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood."
-United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1
Snack isn't pulling this argument out of thin air; it's actually a relatively common belief in most democracies. Just because there are instances in which another person, culture, religion or government infringes upon the natural rights of an individual or society, does not disprove it. It has more to do with morality than practice. It's like making a counter argument against someone claiming, "genocide is inherently wrong" with "but genocide happens in x country, so therefore your statement is false".
"We hold these truths to be sacred and undeniable; that all men are created equal and independent, that from the equal creation they derive rights inherent and inalienable, among which are the preservation of life, and liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."
-Thomas Jefferson
"Fourscore and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal."
-Abraham Lincoln
"All men are by nature equal, all made of the same earth by one Workman; and however we may deceive ourselves, as dear unto God is the poor peasant as the mighty prince."
-Plato
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood."
-United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1
Snack isn't pulling this argument out of thin air; it's actually a relatively common belief in most democracies. Just because there are instances in which another person, culture, religion or government infringes upon the natural rights of an individual or society, does not disprove it. It has more to do with morality than practice. It's like making a counter argument against someone claiming, "genocide is inherently wrong" with "but genocide happens in x country, so therefore your statement is false".
Arkant
Freedom~
I'm sure those girls find it very reassuring that you think they are worth as much as they would be if they were boys on some transcendent level even though them being girls means they aren't allowed to live.
This argument isn't about whether all people being equal is right or wrong, it is about whether or not people are actually equal in reality.
The accurate version of your analogy would be "it's like making a counter argument against someone claiming, 'genocide does not exist' with 'but genocide happens in x country, so therefore your statement is false'" which is a very valid counter argument.
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telle
fella
Yes, the analogy was a little off the mark but it does pertain to the how we define the inherent equality of every person. How we define the term affects what is being argued. There are undoubtedly instances in which equality appears to be absent in a particular culture, country, religion or any social grouping in general. That, I would define, as equality in practice; what we do with the concept in terms of laws or customs, for example. And that is how you define it; a quantifiable concept that can be proven or discredited through calculating how many people possess egalitarian rights and freedoms.
What I am saying is that the argument that every human being is born equal is a principle. It is an intrinsic attribute that is only diminished through unjust laws and misguided interpretations of it. No one is born with more value than anyone else; some people are born into more fortunate circumstances but fundamentally their life's worth is measured by what they do, their accomplishments and their contributions. It's a roll of the die and some people are lucky enough to be born into a social setting that recognizes and respects their autonomy. Many others, such as those Chinese daughters mentioned earlier, are not born into an egalitarian society. In principle however, the value of the individual in either setting is no different.
Let me reiterate, I understand that in reality, the real world or however else you care to phrase it, inequalities are observable and seem to contradict the argument. These instances are examples of an individual's rights being infringed upon, sometimes on a wide systematic scale. But when a society accepts the idea that every person is born equal it becomes clear that such actions are detrimental to a human being's innate worth. I believe the concept itself serves, or at least contributes, to our moral compass. Compassion, empathy, respect for one another; these are all things which nurture society and are therefore quite beneficial for the prosperity and longevity of a nation. That is why this principle has served as a fundamental component for most of the world's democracies.
So yea, maybe we're just arguing two different points but I figured I would just articulate my point a little more clearly.
Dorigon
Alpha and Omega
Does a person's equality really matter in the context of a sovereign nation wishing to control immigration? These older Brits who supposedly pushed the vote in favor of leaving are some of the same people who voted Britain into the EEC back in 1974 or 1975, they had several decades to observe the effects of membership and the positive and negative effects it had on their country.
I think the remain supporters really shot themselves in the foot by focusing so much on leave voters being racist/bigoted/xenophobic. When people are being accused so vehemently, they have a tendency to dig their feet into the ground and be stubborn.
It is a very interesting situation, especially taking into account Scotland and to a lesser extent Northern Ireland voting to leave. I can't imagine NI leaving the UK to unite with the Republic of Ireland, but an independent Scotland really looks possible.
I think the remain supporters really shot themselves in the foot by focusing so much on leave voters being racist/bigoted/xenophobic. When people are being accused so vehemently, they have a tendency to dig their feet into the ground and be stubborn.
It is a very interesting situation, especially taking into account Scotland and to a lesser extent Northern Ireland voting to leave. I can't imagine NI leaving the UK to unite with the Republic of Ireland, but an independent Scotland really looks possible.
madhombre
Legend
this might surprise a few of you but its not the EUs fault that you work for 7bucks a hour and have a fat girlfriend, you simply dont have any ambitions in your life and guess what that wont change once the populists reign
edit: adressing to the people who call everyone "leftists"
edit: adressing to the people who call everyone "leftists"
Arkant
Freedom~
No, she did not. She needed her ID, that's all.
Lanky
meraki
@Snack @telle As Arkant put it, you two are arguing about western morals while in reality people aren't equal. whether a country's law states that all are equal or doesn't, makes little difference.
what you try and do is isolate social position from morals and principles but they're both interlinked with each other. the social position of a person will directly influence a person's life even if the country's law states "all men are equal." in this case you're separating "Chinese policy" to the parent's morals, but they shouldn't be separated.
it's also impractical to argue that if there wasn't a policy that creates gender inequality, there wouldn't be gender equality, because in reality there is a policy and therefore the girl is less valued.
the irony of this statement is pretty insane, yes it does make them less valued. they may not be less valued in your eyes but they are less valued by the society that they grow up in which makes all the difference. it's no comfort to the girl that gets abandoned that a guy in Sweden (?) thinks she's equal to her brother while her parents, her government and the rest of her country believe she's not.
what you try and do is isolate social position from morals and principles but they're both interlinked with each other. the social position of a person will directly influence a person's life even if the country's law states "all men are equal." in this case you're separating "Chinese policy" to the parent's morals, but they shouldn't be separated.
it's also impractical to argue that if there wasn't a policy that creates gender inequality, there wouldn't be gender equality, because in reality there is a policy and therefore the girl is less valued.
Shamatix
Guest
Dramatized
Legend
UK left for the wrong, xenophobic, populist, reasons, but it's no secret today's EU is a great joke with democratic deficit. The initial EU-project with the goal of promoting peace and free markets was great and is probably one of the biggest reasons of Europe's prosperity.
Today, like 99% of the member states' legislation are based on EU-directives or -regulations meaning that the national legislature of the member states practically is non-existent.
Today, like 99% of the member states' legislation are based on EU-directives or -regulations meaning that the national legislature of the member states practically is non-existent.
telle
fella
A country's laws is what makes the difference; it is the primary factor that makes a distinguishable difference in a person's value. Those laws are based on, at least in part, the society's and/or governing body's stance on intrinsic human equality. Yes, these principles are commonly, but not exclusively, found in Western thought but I would rather not delve into a drawn out conversation on moral relativism. Nearly any given national or societal laws fundamentally originate based on how the group perceives our topic and that is why I am speaking of it on a moral level. It is from this foundation that inequality sprouts. It is what makes one person's life "worth" more in one society and less in another.
I think we will just have to agree to disagree.
artonkn
Royal Member
Cant stump the Trump, can't barrage the Farage.
It was for the right, Donald Trump is a successful, intelligent man, politically and personally, that can see this.
Arkant
Freedom~
Unfortunately we were talking about travelling from Poland to Great Britain, nice try though.
Notahealbot
Grandfathered
the point of the post was the headline which i found amusing. "liberal media" is such a mushy term don't you think? kind of an empty boogeyman pejorative.
this is literally true but in context it’s a point of emphasis regardless of the redundancy. you could try a letter to the editor of course.
what gives you the impression people believe everything, or even most things they read in the “media”. people were much more limited when their only source of information was the 6:00 news.
you quote words with no context and state that they are scare tactics and exaggerated claims without demonstrating how they are such.
artonkn
Royal Member
I dont have one, can you give me the money please
artonkn
Royal Member
ye but can you buy me one please
Dorigon
Alpha and Omega
What? No woman has two husbands in China. That definitely goes against mainstream culture. Maybe there are a few rare cases in the countryside, but strange stuff happens in any large country. There isn't even a one child rule anympre - it is a two child rule, and isn't really enforced in the southern part of the country.