Firey Vs Crusader

[Theme]

crusader is just always the best in pretty much every realistic situation at low levels for all melee classes. i've been saying this for years....it doesn't take a genius to figure this out. some of you guys need to learn what instant attacks are and their effect on weapon procs.

For example against a fc even lifestealing goes past crusader and thats for a warrior, according maths at Lifestealing vs Crusader thread. Would you like to point out how those maths are wrong?



Edit:

Lets say 270 seconds of fight. Enemy is a warrior with 45% mitigation and 12% dodge 5% parry (ignoring block). We are a warrior with 20% crit and a sf with 2.7s speed, hit capped. Lets assume for example 3 specials/10 seconds.



Lifestealing: 6ppm, 6/(60s/2.7s)=27% proc chance

Crusader: 1ppm, 1/(60s/2.7s)=4.5% proc chance



270s/2.7s=100swings and 27*3=81 specials --->181 proc chances.

Ignoring possible overpowers: 21.72 dodges, 9.05 parries, 150.23 proc chances.



Lifestealing: 150.23*0.27=40.5621 procs ignoring resists/crits thats 1216.863dmg



Crusader: 150.23*0.045=6.76035 procs. Ignoring overslapping: 101.40525s uptime.

(Attack Power / 14) * Weapon Speed = Damage, thats the formula for dmg increase per swing. So: 200/14*2.7=38.5714dmg



Now during crusader: 101.40525s/2.7s=37.5575 swings.

4.5069 dodges, 1.877875 parries, 7.5115 crits and 23.661225 hits.

That makes 23.661225*38.5714dmg+7.5115*38.5714dmg*2= 1492,160902185dmg

Add in armor 1492,160902185dmg*0.55= 820.6885dmg



Special attacs hardly add enough dmg to make up the difference.

 

[Grabco]

I agree with the second paragraph from post #59

 

[Lloydganks]

For example against a fc even lifestealing goes past crusader and thats for a warrior, according maths at Lifestealing vs Crusader thread. Would you like to point out how those maths are wrong?

holy fucking shit can you people at least TRY to communicate in my language? i'm so goddamn tired of deciphering the 2nd-grade literacy level garbage on this website. if you want to post, spend 5 extra seconds making it fucking legible for other humans to read.



and since you want to get technical with your math, crusader benefits from armor reduction. lifestealing does not. lifestealing can be resisted. crusader can't. your block/dodge/parry math is also bogus because you only factor it in for crusader and not lifestealing....



but all this doesn't even really matter very much. crusader provides more burst, and that's all that matters for any situation in pvp: arenas or premades.....which, coincidentally, are the two things the OP asked about in his post. hmmmm.



edit: forgot to add that you also didn't factor in crit damage from the added attack power from crusader....which is pretty much the entire reason why you get the enchant: a string of big crits with your bonus AP buff bursting a target down.

 

[Theme]

and since you want to get technical with your math, crusader benefits from armor reduction. lifestealing does not. lifestealing can be resisted. crusader can't. your block/dodge/parry math is also bogus because you only factor it in for crusader and not lifestealing....

Resist % against equal lvl target without resistances is something like 5% or so I think. There is dodge/parry included for lifestealing too, its just they apply twice for crusader.



Edit: Also if burst is ONLY thing that matters you play different 19s than I. Ive seen more than enough mana-wars where plain sustained dmg is what matters.

 

[Lloydganks]

you're right, the avoidance is indeed calculated for lifestealing. i didn't see you put the number in there.



i don't really think there are any "mana wars" at 19 but if that's what you encounter then so be it.... all i can really say is that WoW pvp is burst damage, period. really, pretty much every game revolves around the concept of burst damage or controlled aggression.....



there's a reason why all rogues at 70 got mongoose and all rogues at 80 get berzerking. why do you think they get those proc enchants instead of static +damage....? because burst is king in pvp, always has been, always will be.

 

[kidneypopper]

Resist % against equal lvl target without resistances is something like 5% or so I think. There is dodge/parry included for lifestealing too, its just they apply twice for crusader.



Edit: Also if burst is ONLY thing that matters you play different 19s than I. Ive seen more than enough mana-wars where plain sustained dmg is what matters.

ur arguing against lord of the ganks about pvp dude.



you made a really good point ganks, why do people post these numbers when arenas and even premades are decided within seconds of a quick burst and shock? idk



SADER BABY

 

[Lloydganks]

i actually used to like 2x 15 agil for rogues in arenas pre-dodge nerf....it just gave so much dodge in arenas that it was a huge pain in the ass for physical dps classes to kill you. but then they nerfed dodge....



i also used to love 2x fiery at 19 because it was so good at interrupting casts in arena (and does a ton of damage). but then they nerfed cast time reduction....



then they nerfed hp at 19. people with like 1/2 the hp they used to have? fellas please, crusader is such an easy call.



you also have to factor in the intimidation factor of having a couple crusader procs back to back....don't pretend like you guys don't get a little scared when you see the melee on you start proccing crusader. you're just like "oh shit"....

 

[Rip]

Um, did you read the whole comment >.> You're suppposed to put weapon speed in there, not swings per minute because you are initially assuming the the ppm is 1.01



2.7*1.82 = 4.914% chance to proc with a 2.7 speed weapon



You get 22.222 swings per minute with a shadowfang.

1.01/22.22222 = .04545 or a 4.5% chance to proc sader with a 2.7 speed weapon. Im assuming the difference is due to rounding the 1.82.



People need to read up on the thread about LS vs Crusader for warriors to figure out damage. (The answer is crusader)

Umm, sorry but it is Attacks per Minute, not Attack Speed. You might want to review this thread

Proc Mechanics - Elitist Jerks



I just doublechecked my math that I did last night, and it's all correct. But remember, I'm going off an old WoWHead comment that's saying that the Proc Rate is 5%. Someone should do further testing on it, because if that number is wrong, the PPM will be much higher.



PS:

Since I know I'll probably be flamed by people who can't even spell Fiery, I'll go out and say that I did vote for Crusader. I've said that from the information provided, Fiery has a higher PPM, but while Crusader procs less per minute, when it does proc it's much more useful.

 

[Lloydganks]

Umm, sorry but it is Attacks per Minute, not Attack Speed. You might want to review this thread

Proc Mechanics - Elitist Jerks



I just doublechecked my math that I did last night, and it's all correct. But remember, I'm going off an old WoWHead comment that's saying that the Proc Rate is 5%. Someone should do further testing on it, because if that number is wrong, the PPM will be much higher.

your math is right.



the ppm of sader is approximately 1. you use the ppm to calculate the chance to proc, not the other way around.



people just don't understand how procs work.

 

[Cliche]

Umm, sorry but it is Attacks per Minute, not Attack Speed. You might want to review this thread

Proc Mechanics - Elitist Jerks



I just doublechecked my math that I did last night, and it's all correct. But remember, I'm going off an old WoWHead comment that's saying that the Proc Rate is 5%. Someone should do further testing on it, because if that number is wrong, the PPM will be much higher.



PS:

Since I know I'll probably be flamed by people who can't even spell Fiery, I'll go out and say that I did vote for Crusader. I've said that from the information provided, Fiery has a higher PPM, but while Crusader procs less per minute, when it does proc it's much more useful.

My apologies, I went back and read the post and figured out your math, I understood it wrong at first >.< I dont know that sader is 1 ppm vs 1.1 ppm though, other enchants like fiery and LS are whole numbers though tbh we don't know that those proc rates are right either. No low level testing dummies ftl.

 

[Rip]

My apologies, I went back and read the post and figured out your math, I understood it wrong at first >.< I dont know that sader is 1 ppm vs 1.1 ppm though, other enchants like fiery and LS are whole numbers though tbh we don't know that those proc rates are right either. No low level testing dummies ftl.

Very true,

Anyone saying [Insert Weapon Enchant] has an exact PPM of [Insert # Here] is wrong, because nobody has calculated all these enchants exact proc rate %, because it's impossible without low level target dummies.



But we can get very close with recount running and attacking someone standing behind them.



So someone should go out and test all these enchants

kgo

 

[CIHC]

Sounds like a waste of time and gold...



If I knew what I was looking for, I could gladly vollenteer.

 

[germs]

To the people arguing for crusader:



You say that crusader "chain proccing" can win a match but this can also be said for a fiery/LS multi proccing.



Btw, I also saw someone mention LS crit which is impossible.



Not going to look through posts to quote but someone also said that people have half the hp they used to and used this to justify their argument that crusader is better than fiery.



The fact that people have less of a health pool means that fiery is taking a higher % of their hp which makes it even more effective than it was pre-hp nerf.



Now, towards the thread in general. Both have situations in which they are advantageous. Fiery would be preferable in Warsong, especially on O as a rogue, considering you might only have time to get a handful of attacks in on an FC before being slowed or feared: making it preferable. On the other hand, in arena, a crusader proc might give a rogue enough hp to survive his priest being interrupted or feared.



Most of these events are hypothetical.

 

[CIHC]

crusader and "chain procing" does happen, but the chance is so slim that its not even worth trying..

 

[Goma]

ls/fiery can crit if you have any crit rating (skinning)

 

[Minnyheals]

Atm I'd say fiery because swords are fast, when axes get released because of the slow weapon speed I'd say sader.

 

[Cliche]

LS cannot crit. Slow weapons are always better for any enchant to proc off of and even when axes become useable for rogues shadowfang will still be better

 

[Minnyheals]

LS cannot crit. Slow weapons are always better for any enchant to proc off of and even when axes become useable for rogues shadowfang will still be better

But a shadowfang is so hard to by now... I don't feel like farming 3 weeks for a weapon I'll drop when I lvl my 19 out because I get bored with the bracet again =P

 

[Naturaltalnt]

Minny! how are you?

 

[Goma]

o i thought it could because i had a 450 skinning rogue and my fiery was critting all the time

so i just assumed u no