EU+US F2P & Vet Rankings!

Do you think Hardcore rankings are a good idea?

  • Yes, and I will try to participate

  • I don't mind them

  • No, they should be removed (please state reasons)

Results are only viewable after voting.
IMG_20200820_105726.jpg https://shikimori.one/characters/137171-eichi-tenshouin

Эйчи-Эйчи
Теншоуин - Теншин
мы дополняем друг друга ...)))
 
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Sitting at 6370 account-wide / 5380 character only .... that's almost 2k more points that what's on the list :(

@Crystalpall Do you want some help for a manual update of the list?
 
@Crystalpall probably agreed with my arguments (see my post#107 above) that this rating is not objective and decided to discontinue it. besides there may be major additions (hundreds, if not thousands of points) becoming available to f2p very soon, so it would make sense to look at the results a bit later.
 
Well, @eluni , to come back on your previous post that I didn't see strangely:
Mixing everyone together, while "competing" in different categories is not really relevant as you said.
But even by separating VETs, F2Ps and solo-F2Ps, achievements available are often changing, leading to some Grandfathered achievs provinding "bonus" to some players' AP that can't be fairly compared to newer players who just "were not there at the right time".

That's why for me, to get a fair "competition"/ranking you need to objectively compare the total count of achievs that are currently obtainable. And indicate as a note what is the total count of achievs including GF ones / glitched ones.

For example, for me, I'm at:
- Account-wide: 5745 (6370 including GF/glitched ones)
- Character-only: 4870 (5380 including GF/glitched ones)

Everyone can compete for ranking with what is currently available (rewards involved players, no matter of when they joined), and the "true total" is just for distinguishing players with same score, or it's on a different "legacy" ranking.
Otherwise we are with the current ranking where you have groups of players (especially top ranks) that are so far that nobody can get close to them just because of "sry, you had to start sooner" (yeah, I especially target here users of DK glitch because it's the most obvious one).

But to be honest, there can't be N rankings for each specific way of counting things, it's already hard to have character only and account wide, both with F2P and VETs ... that's 4 rankings.

And, it is true that even in the F2P category it's not fair with everyone as some play full solo and some get fully boosted (yeah, I'm one of them). But there is not really a way to get solo and boosted F2Ps in different categories, as the line between them is hard to draw for the simple reason that people can have gotten indirect help/boost (like tagging a rare while a random high level is killing it, to get credit) that is not distinguishable from pure boosting with an alt account, but is still imo pure solo play ...
 
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Brihan said:
Well,
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IDD, and i don't mind this rating and it would be great if the author or someone else could keep it up to date. However for reasons stated above we cannot take it too seriously.
Let me give you an example of how much solo differs from 'boosted'. I am now 12/16 with One Many Army - one of the hardest f2p solo challenges. I am relatively skillful with such objectives yet it has taken me over a month of active play solo, while with a high-level friend it can be done in a couple of hours. It's like putting together people who run marathon and are driven the distance in a car.
 
eluni said:
IDD, and i don't mind this rating and it would be great if the author or someone else could keep it up to date. However for reasons stated above we cannot take it too seriously.
Let me give you an example of how much solo differs from 'boosted'. I am now 12/16 with One Many Army - one of the hardest f2p solo challenges. I am relatively skillful with such objectives yet it has taken me over a month of active play solo, while with a high-level friend it can be done in a couple of hours. It's like putting together people who run marathon and are driven the distance in a car.
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Just to clarify: I agree there is a huge difference in the difficulty between playing full solo and full boosted, but my previous post wasn't about that. Rather it's that there is technically no way to differentiate the way of how an achiev was obtained, and that players are not 100% solo or 100% boosted, but in the wide spectrum inbetween. Leading to the impossibility of having a "fair" ranking representative of that kind of dedication that have solo players, except if the definition of "solo f2p" is given officially and can lead to a separate ranking, just like "hardcore f2p" is to some extent.

There are so many ways of playing lvl20 that we can invent dozens of ranking for each type of gameplay (from the "pure pure pure F2P" to the "chad SET"). But if you want to try to include as many people as possible in a ranking that compete on achievement points and which has some meaning, it's a ranking on what's accessible to lvl20s imo, no matter how you get it.
Just like you're F2P or VET, your category is based on what restrictions you have on your account. The restrictions you add onto that (aka your gameplay) just lead to a sub-category. And imo, it applies the same for the "main" ranking F2P and VET that are distinct from "specific" rankings like "solo f2p" "hardcore f2p" or "pure pure solo f2p that never ever went closer than 50ft from another player", all sub-category needing to be defined for the ranking to have a meaning.

TL;DR: I wanted to write a short post, and it evolved in a wall of text ... again .... sorry to phone users :oops:
 
Does the addon count the bugged ones? Like a few of the composites and I think its 25000 hks and up.
 
I think it's very obvious at this point that I won't be updating the rankings anymore. If someone is interested, *and preferably has java experience*, I'd be glad to pass the rankings along with a tutorial on how to use the program and setup your battle net dev account that you need for the API passkey.

There's some reasons why I don't want to continue. I'll start with personal ones and move on to technical ones.

1. Game is shit. I literally couldn't care less about retail if someone paid me to. F2P was amazing but now when I moved to other games (often with competitive rankings as well), I can see with all certainty how bad this is.

2. Updates killed the rankings integrity. Starting with DK update, together with raid achievements you can't get anymore, p2p bug and vets, there would have to be like multiple different achievement rankings at least. The ranking could also only count the non-gf'd ones, but from a technical standpoint, it's a nightmare to implement. See further for details.

3. Hashbrows made the program and I fixed it a little and added a bit of functionality mostly because I really, really wanted to create something like that since Lofi's days. But it takes a lot of time to update it, you have to do it manually, and having it automated is past my skills at the moment. It just becomes one more chore on an evergrowing list of chores when you enter adulthood. And I'm big lazy.

Now onto technical issues that killed my spirit:

4. Blizzard's API is massively fucked. You see different values in game, in armory and accessing API. Moreover, some achievements (mostly the blue colored ones) shouldn't count for "character only", but some of them do. It's very inconsistent. You theoretically could use an API call for specific achievements and count them, but that would change the update from a couple minutes to multiple hours at least, and still wouldn't even work because it's so god damn inconsistent.


5. I'm not that good at Java. I'm studying IT but I'm by far the worst among all my peers and I often have to botch stuff and I have no idea how it works. There's a lot of fantastic ideas passed on by people in this thread and I just don't know how to do them. I guess this is the least problematic as learning would be greatly beneficial for me, but it seems like a daunting task to undertake.


6. There's no way to fairly divide the playerbase for the rankings. If we continued with the system of just dividing them into "character only" and "account wide", vets have a distinct advantage over F2Ps, there's people with GFd achieves that I don't know how to filter, plus it's too late now for setting up ground rules. Stuff like P2P bug should have been "use this if you want but if you do that you're disqualified" kinda deal. That's how it works in f2p osrs rankings and I think it's the best possible solution. Also, to people who play without any p2p assistance, sorry, but there is just no way to differentiate your profile from others. It would have to be a trust system which is always a bad idea.

7. There's stuff coming in Shadowlands that would probably require a big rework of the rankings, and for complete fairness it might even require grandfathering the standings and starting a new "season" for characters made post shadowlands. If the game changes that much there's little that can be done to keep things fair.


Sorry to all the people I've dissappointed, I really wanted to keep updating the thread once I made it, but I think when you have no passion for the game you will only do so much. And I hope you won't exile me for it, I still love hanging around, even when I don't play.

Please send me a PM if you're interested in taking over the rankings.
 
Crystalpall said:
4. Blizzard's API is massively fucked. You see different values in game, in armory and accessing API. Moreover, some achievements (mostly the blue colored ones) shouldn't count for "character only", but some of them do. It's very inconsistent. You theoretically could use an API call for specific achievements and count them, but that would change the update from a couple minutes to multiple hours at least, and still wouldn't even work because it's so god damn inconsistent.

5. I'm not that good at Java. I'm studying IT but I'm by far the worst among all my peers and I often have to botch stuff and I have no idea how it works. There's a lot of fantastic ideas passed on by people in this thread and I just don't know how to do them. I guess this is the least problematic as learning would be greatly beneficial for me, but it seems like a daunting task to undertake.
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Is there a reason why you don't just do it manually without a program? by just check armory achievements
 
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