Do you think wargame is what this bracket needs?

[glancealot]

I had a discussion with someone and i think this is a good topic:

The proposition side of the debate: wargames are a healthy way to grow the bracket, to encourage people to play organized pvp, and to allow twinks to play at a competitive level. This is needed as most PuG games nowadays are blowouts.

The opposition side of the debate: wargames aren't aligned with the intended goal of an expoff bracket where people gear up a low level toon to dunk on both levelers and other twinks who aren't as skilled/as geared-out (this would include the practice of group queueing) as they are.

i myself mostly solo queue, my personal opinion is that, i enjoy outplaying another twink (sometimes multiple twinks) in a PuG game where the two sides are relatively even or when my side appears to be inferior on paper. although non-blowout games happen only about once or twice every 10 games, but it feels very good when it does happen (win or lose). i want to improve, but i don't want to dedicate too much energy or time given that there is no metric for skill level at 20 (no personal ELO rating). for example, i spent probably $1,000 in coaching fees (and tips), and numerous hours to review my losses, to become a top 200 legend hearthstone player, i am not doing that in an exp-off bracket where i do wanna spend some effort to get better in a general sense, but most importantly, i wanna have fun. furthermore, if i wanted to get better at organized pvp where WSGs unfold like this, i would just play at max level where you can earn titles and rewards, as the game has evolved into one where even people who only PVP can have a sustainable gaming experience (remember when you had to raid BT/Sunwell to be competitive in PVP? not anymore)

What's your opinion? do you like wargames? why and why not? Do you think wargames are meaningful at 20? (please vote)

P.S., most speed gears are disabled in wargames, i feel like i am crawling in wargames because i am usually running at 140% in pugs, very unpleasant experience overall so far from a speed hpal's perspective.

 

[shanker]

wargames along with arena skirmishes did not help the 19 bracket, it divided more than it united

 

[troublesomesleeper]

IMO wargames have the potential to be fun, but require too much coordination - its more enjoyable just to spam randoms. Mismatched comps cause it to fall apart fast. For example, last time our comp consisted of 3 heals (druid/disc/pally) and no stacked classes. The enemy comp was 4 heals (2 disc/rsham/rduid) supported by 2 arc mages. Needless to say we lost and some people logged off.

 

[accel]

I am PVPing on level 20 because PVPing on level 60 is too tedious, gearing takes too much time. I am not really looking to tryhard and everything I do follows from that: (1) I am mostly queueing solo, whenever I queue in a premade that's because I just met an enemy premade and they wiped me or they lost but it was a really sweaty game and their loss was partly them being unlucky, (2) I am playing a strong spec, queueing solo with a weak spec is much worse, (3) I am not going for "pure f2p" bragging rights, the less time I spend on professions and the like, the better, (4) I am not going for BIS, having gear that is just fair and competitive is enough.

With that, I am not really big on wargames. I would watch them and I would perhaps participate, but even if they were running constantly and getting into them was a matter of minutes (completely unrealistic), they'd be like 5% of my PVP on level 20 with 95% going to random BGs (preferably solo, but if the enemy has a premade, fine, I'll premade as well, as I said above).

 

[WorthANickel]

I had a discussion with someone and i think this is a good topic:

The proposition side of the debate: wargames are a healthy way to grow the bracket, to encourage people to play organized pvp, and to allow twinks to play at a competitive level. This is needed as most PuG games nowadays are blowouts.

The opposition side of the debate: wargames aren't aligned with the intended goal of an expoff bracket where people gear up a low level toon to dunk on both levelers and other twinks who aren't as skilled/as geared-out (this would include the practice of group queueing) as they are.

i myself mostly solo queue, my personal opinion is that, i enjoy outplaying another twink (sometimes multiple twinks) in a PuG game where the two sides are relatively even or when my side appears to be inferior on paper. although non-blowout games happen only about once or twice every 10 games, but it feels very good when it does happen (win or lose). i want to improve, but i don't want to dedicate too much energy or time given that there is no metric for skill level at 20 (no personal ELO rating). for example, i spent probably $1,000 in coaching fees (and tips) on hearthstone to become a top 200 legend player, i am not doing that in an exp-off bracket where i do wanna spend some effort to get better in a general sense, but most importantly, i wanna have fun. furthermore, if i wanted to get better at organized pvp where WSGs unfold like this, i would just play at max level where you can earn titles and rewards, as the game has evolved into one where even people who only PVP can have a sustainable gaming experience (remember when you had to raid BT/Sunwell to be competitive in PVP? not anymore)

What's your opinion? do you like wargames? why and why not? Do you think wargames are meaningful at 20? (please vote)

P.S., most speed gears are disabled in wargames, i feel like i am crawling in wargames because i am usually running at 140% in pugs, very unpleasant experience overall so far from a speed hpal's perspective.

war games are very fun and beneficial to the community when formed properly wargames are supposed to be fun BGs where people can test their class to it's limits in an equal pvp setting. War games are not supposed to be the equivalent of rated battlegrounds and people making stupid comps just to win them ruins it. Two teams of 4,5,7, or 10 whatever it may be are formed for the people involved to have fun not to have 4 disc priests 3 survival hunters 2 arcane mages and an fc and just stomp the other team.

 

[Lateraldrop]

Wargames can be fun and good for the bracket, but they often are not. Played in a couple and been watching the streams and listening to disc they are already getting sweaty when most of the conversation during the formation is about putting together the best comp (to the point were they spend about an hour to form when you have people just sitting there asking for invites) instead of taking people that want to play, and dunking on gear or play like pug-mades is for glads only. I wish that we had more guilds that could field full teams so that there was a place for all of this sweat to exist and allow for pug-mades to be what they are supposed to be.

True wargames don't really exist until you have rosters that play together as a team all the time. They are very fun, but you can make an argument both ways about how healthy they are or aren't for the bracket. Pug-mades are 100% good and healthy for the bracket as long as people don't sweat themselves to death.

 

[accel]

War games are not supposed to be the equivalent of rated battlegrounds and people making stupid comps just to win them ruins it.

This is a double-edged sword. I get that the idea is to make things more interesting by removing overpowered comps. But in return you stifle innovation. This kills it all just as surely. If you cannot go with 4 healers instead of 3, how the hell will you know that 4 is better than 3 (if it is)? If you cannot go all stealth, how the hell will you know that all stealth is actually best (if it is)? What is the optimal number of hunters? It is unlikely to be "all", what is it? We don't get to know. What is the ideal setup overall? We don't get to know. We don't get to know tons of things, we are hitting obstacles on what's considered to be acceptable = not overpowered enough all the time.

When wargames *are* the equivalent of rated bgs in that you can do whatever and it's all about getting a win, there's space and incentive to innovate. When you say that wargames aren't supposed to be like that and are supposed to be those friendly contests because otherwise it will be all hunter-healer, well, cool, but then that becomes similar to just some gathering in a pub where folks "compete" with each other in who can eat more sausages and drink more beer. Friendly and fun but not very interesting outside of that pub.

To be clear, I am not saying that wargames should get rid of all restrictions. I don't know if that would be good. I am just saying that having artificial restrictions has big negative effects as well. Essentially, everything is doomed either way, because the balance is shit.

 

[WorthANickel]

This is a double-edged sword. I get that the idea is to make things more interesting by removing overpowered comps. But in return you stifle innovation. This kills it all just as surely. If you cannot go with 4 healers instead of 3, how the hell will you know that 4 is better than 3 (if it is)? If you cannot go all stealth, how the hell will you know that all stealth is actually best (if it is)? What is the optimal number of hunters? It is unlikely to be "all", what is it? We don't get to know. What is the ideal setup overall? We don't get to know. We don't get to know tons of things, we are hitting obstacles on what's considered to be acceptable = not overpowered enough all the time.

When wargames *are* the equivalent of rated bgs in that you can do whatever and it's all about getting a win, there's space and incentive to innovate. When you say that wargames aren't supposed to be like that and are supposed to be those friendly contests because otherwise it will be all hunter-healer, well, cool, but then that becomes similar to just some gathering in a pub where folks "compete" with each other in who can eat more sausages and drink more beer. Friendly and fun but not very interesting outside of that pub.

To be clear, I am not saying that wargames should get rid of all restrictions. I don't know if that would be good. I am just saying that having artificial restrictions has big negative effects as well. Essentially, everything is doomed either way, because the balance is shit.

You can do all these as long as you're doing them to test something or to have fun with a full stealth comp, full plate comp, full priest comp etc. But the people who queue fotm and overly OP classes in 3s are just doing it to stomp all over the other comp which voids the point of war games unless you're organising a competitive game with a group full of the best classes on either side its just pointless running such comps

 

[accel]

But the people who queue fotm and overly OP classes in 3s are just doing it to stomp all over the other comp

The desire to stomp is a good thing. It's a powerful driver that breeds creativity and in the end creates progress. This is the point.

Yes, maybe in the particular case of WoW PVP at 20 this would result in completely boring mirrors. But the flipside is not competing for real, just patting each other on the back ever so friendly. "Hey buddy, do you mind if I hit you?" - "Well, it's my turn now." - "OK then, you hit me, but please no Bestial Wrath or whatever." - "Sure thing." - slap slap someone won woohoo it means pretty much nothing. (I am exaggerating obviously, but you get the idea.)

 

[JadeFire]

The problem with *most* wargames is that it really brings out the shit-bags. Not all of the time, but the type of person that is really attracted to them hardcore is usually on the "whinny-bitch" side... especially when it comes to twinking.

If there were some real nice "nobody wants to play with your elitist mouth" rules in place... run it.

I've been in a few that were not like that, they just have a tendency to go that way.

"Whhaaaaaaaa why did you not windshear!"
"I used it to save somebody else that was more important than you.
"Whaaaaaaaaaaaa! *FART*"​

 

[Chops]

Brackets need a lot of things in order to grow. Casual BG ques are one of those things (as we discovered when they segregated ques in wrath) and pugmade wargames are another. It's important to have an outlet for more competitive people. Even further, brackets can probably benefit from having guilds fielding teams for more serious wargames and while those are certainly fun, Im not sold on them being crucial.

Everyone likes a different level of competitiveness. Some people like curb stomping levelers, some people like the unpredictable nature of premades meeting in random que, some people like pugmades, some people like straight up guild v guild super sweats, some people prefer to arena. Some people, like me, generally enjoy any one of these on any given day depending on their mood.

If you dont find wargames fun, then you dont find them fun. Thats fine. Maybe theyre not your thing. I enjoyed the hell out of guild v guild games in wrath 39s. Hated wargames in BFA. And wargames in SL? Most fun I've had twinking since wrath. I need to try and catch more of them.

I think our current wargames scene needs a few things here and there to smooth it out and help it grow but I'm confident itll find its way. But it's also not for everyone. Your personal experience (and apparent distaste) with it doesnt mean its bad for the bracket or somehow out of line with the brackets "goal". It just means they dont line up with the goals *you* have when participating.

As for meaningful? I mean, sure. In the same way any rec center basketball league or amateur sporting event is meaningful. I played D2 club rugby for years. Nobody in our town even knew we had a team, much less cared to watch. It was completely meaningless on a scale that most people would recognize. But it was important and meaningful to us when we were playing. And then when we werent? Just another hobby.

A small aside: I do wish people who are posting about how toxic and sweaty wargames are would jump in the games. I've never had anything but a cordial and pleasant time and while theres an element of organizing over coms, I certainly wouldnt call them super sweats.

 

[WorthANickel]

The desire to stomp is a good thing. It's a powerful driver that breeds creativity and in the end creates progress. This is the point.

Yes, maybe in the particular case of WoW PVP at 20 this would result in completely boring mirrors. But the flipside is not competing for real, just patting each other on the back ever so friendly. "Hey buddy, do you mind if I hit you?" - "Well, it's my turn now." - "OK then, you hit me, but please no Bestial Wrath or whatever." - "Sure thing." - slap slap someone won woohoo it means pretty much nothing. (I am exaggerating obviously, but you get the idea.)

The desire to rofl stomp somebody in two shots isn't what breeds creativity it's what breeds 100s of fotm players who come once every few months on a full bought surv hunter and just ram roll people because they think they're good. Creativity comes from people wanting to try reasonable but new builds or just underestimated classes like feral druid and enhancement shaman
[doublepost=1620312281,1620312248][/doublepost]

The problem with *most* wargames is that it really brings out the shit-bags. Not all of the time, but the type of person that is really attracted to them hardcore is usually on the "whinny-bitch" side... especially when it comes to twinking.

If there were some real nice "nobody wants to play with your elitist mouth" rules in place... run it.

I've been in a few that were not like that, they just have a tendency to go that way.

"Whhaaaaaaaa why did you not windshear!"
"I used it to save somebody else that was more important than you.
"Whaaaaaaaaaaaa! *FART*"​

that's why i only wargame with certain people because I know its just for fun

 

[Yayo]

I’ll play alli enh

 

[Asylum]

wargames in any bracket = YUS! x1,000

i think guild vs. guild is the optimal way to wargame, requires much less effort to coordinate.
generally speaking: you have a much better idea of your guild's playing habits (times they login to game).
if you're not a fresh recruit in your guild, you are probably also used to your guildmates' playstyles, and can kind of synchronize on basic mechanics (sync dumping a DPS burst, or focusing a healer that's CCed) without needing to voice more than: "big dmg on ..." or "sheeping ..."
i have noticed that type of synergy isn't really there in pick-up wargames; there's a lot more ego combat. another observation: there are usually too many words to describe very simple calls; you need to have the right person calling shots, it's important to decide who that is before the games start.

 

[Germinus]

1. If you thing 20 as a bracket. First flaw. 20-29 is huge cap in gear and gema.
2.wargame is ="who has morwe gems".
3. Im salty lil 10-20 p.o.s. <3

 

[Lateraldrop]

Even further, brackets can probably benefit from having guilds fielding teams for more serious wargames and while those are certainly fun, Im not sold on them being crucial.

A small aside: I do wish people who are posting about how toxic and sweaty wargames are would jump in the games. I've never had anything but a cordial and pleasant time and while theres an element of organizing over coms, I certainly wouldnt call them super sweats.

Think that the guild v guild games are pretty vital to bracket health because they provide an outlet for competitive playstyle preferences. When g v g exist it really does cut down on how sweaty pugmades are because there are more clearly defined levels of expected competitiveness.

I have played or watched the vods and coma in the last few weeks foe pugmades and so when I say they are sweaty its because I heard people dunking on 'randoms' for 20 min for playing feral spec. No one is switching out to get people that want to play in. It is essentially try to put together the best comp of known players I can and take an hour to so so if I have to. Maybe this is just an unlucky streak on my part but it wasn't just a guess.

Part of your post I didn't quote but I liked and made me re-think my position though is that this bracket is still exploring and growing in this area. There is a good chance that things just get better as time goes on.

 

[Kaxle]

Both are important.

The pugs help garner broader interest and recruit while providing a quick casual mode for random afternoon sessions. Sometimes people want to just relax after work/school and play a game or two before dinner or jsut play in general when no wargames are going on, random Qs provide that. Since we are xpon with the levelers we expose new people to this being an option and they may end up making their own twink to try it out and help add numbers to the bracket.

Community Wargames are important because they help people improve and gain an appreciation for not just roflstomping levelers. This helps the overall health of the bracket tremendously for a couple of reasons.

• People less familiar with organized games get to learn strategies and concepts they otherwise wouldn't have been exposed to in pugs. As more people play in the community wargames this knowledge makes it way into said pugs improving the overall pug experience.
• The class/stealth/healer restrictions aren't completely arbitrary, they are something thats been tweaked and adjusted over at least a decade between the 19/20 bracket. Are they perfect as is? No we are still fairly early into the expansion in terms of wargames so it will see tweaks and revisions to fit the current landscape. This also leaks into general pugs as people start gearing up non-fotm alts to play when their primary class gets filled. Those alts will end up in pugs since people will want to get more familiar with the class helping the brackets overall class variety. Don't fool yourself, 3 disc with 5+ hunters on a team isn't a fun experience and is how you kill ques and wg sessions.

Guild vs Guild wargames are important because they give the super competitive outlet and bragging rights. While not a super big deal for most the bracket as Lateraldrop said the GvGs soak up the sweat. These are were the players can go to get super sweaty leaving the community games as a casual but serious option for people who just want leveler free games without going full try hard.

 

[glancealot]

after reading all the replies, i am actually gonna vote yes.

but i will probably only bring my druid instead of paladin to future wargames, i didn't pay half a mil for socket + tert gears with inactive tert.

edit: also, in before @Kakakaka font size 3 essay

 

[Chops]

but i will probably only bring my druid instead of paladin to future wargames

Good! One of the things the community needs is more FCs. The larger pool of "specialized" positions we have to pull from, the better.

Glad to see youll be giving them a second chance.

 

[Sunwatcher]

Wargames 100%

Stomping into levelers has always been pretty pathetic. Someone once best described going up against levelers as being like a guy in a Ferrari racing kids in Toyota Camrys and thinking he's cool. It's really just sad. In years of twinking, there are always people (usually newcomers) who don't get that, which is also kinda sad. But most people learn and grow out of that mindset.

Wargames/skirms are the only way to have competitive games that require skill and coordination; that people play not just their class well, but understand their teammates' classes. You can't get that in pugs, but for a lucky queue, and even then it's questionable.

Definitely agree with folks who are concerned that it can lead to saltiness and over-focus on comps (a few wargamers have offered/asked for more underrepresented specs in comps. I think we'll get there once people settle into it). That comes along with any genuinely competitive effort. Having said that, in the past month of wargames, I've heard mostly chill folks and the least amount of toxicity in years. People have their complaints, but it's not turning sour like it used to. 99% of wargamers have been pretty awesomely chill this expansion.

One thing that I think speaks to the integrity of warmers lately, is that the first thing out of a winning team's mouth when they stomp their adversaries isn't gloating or kek'ing or feeling badass like you often get with twinks pugging randoms; it's "who can we trade/find/class-swap to help out". There are games where 30 seconds into the opening team fight the winning team is unironically asking if they should afk the match because the comps clearly don't work and they don't want to just kek-smash their opponents for 15min. That's good sportsmanship. It's a sign that people care about player experience more than W:L. The same is fundamentally not true in pugs. It's not impossible in pugs; you'll just rarely see it both because of that aforementioned immature Ferrari vs Camry attitude, and also the logistical difficulties of regrouping or faction swapping or whatever and then having to roll the dice on the queue.

And let's not pretend that pugging into randoms doesn't lead to the same complaints about comps most of the time anyway. All you have to do is read posts here or in the in-game community chats. It's mostly complaining about X faction queuing hunter premades into pugs. Fair enough. One great way to never have to complain about premade imbalance is to stop queuing into trash. Wargames offer that path.

Agree that maybe sometimes we could get into wargames a bit faster. But with few exceptions, we've been pretty quick that past month or so. Keep in mind we're coordinating across timezones and continents. When you consider that, it's impressive how well it's working lately. We're at the point where on some nights, there are more than enough players, and people are offering to sit a game or two and then subbing in. That's a sign that wargames are healthy right now.
[doublepost=1620326782,1620326220][/doublepost]

after reading all the replies, i am actually gonna vote yes.

but i will probably only bring my druid instead of paladin to future wargames, i didn't pay half a mil for socket + tert gears with inactive tert.

edit: also, in before @Kakakaka font size 3 essay

Glance, I'll say here what we were all talking about in discord the other night when you were playing Hpal.

I didn't hear a single person who wasn't totally supportive of doing fun builds, and specifically you and your efforts. We were all saying it seemed like a fun setup for pugs sometimes. However, the Hpal speed build and play style just doesn't work in competitive situations like wargames.

Don't let those two games color your opinion too much. It wasn't you, or comps, or hpal. It was just the wrong build. You should definitely still hpal in wargames if you love the class. It'll just require swapping to a different set and you're good to go. Healers almost always have a spot if they want it.