DK DPS 2t10 choice
- Thread starter Aelobin
- Start date
Splosion
Mr Theory
Yup, and chaos bane was the reason why that change was made. a 400 dps gain from just installing an addon was rather silly.
Falkor
Twink Info Legend
pretty sure a few ret pallys with smourne didnt cause the whole change, had to do with a lot of addons that played the game for the player during LK and before
also with all the changes since cata to rets (and all classes) the dps is probably around the same regardless of the method. i was reading old EJ pages and never saw anything has high as a 400dps discrepancy between an addon canceling chaos bane and not, it was more like 1-300dps depending on how fast it got canceled (macroing /cancelaura was the least dps improvement since it was slower than the addon), which in the grand scheme of things means jack since arcane mages will still out dps us today
and the main benefit was for rets b/c they could get full stacks in 4-5sec (even up to 5frags in one hit) which was different from warriors and dks - even the author of the defunct addon said "From further digging I have noticed that this is NOT a dps increase for Warriors and Death Knights" so idk what would have changed between then and now, but according to that canceling the buff should not be an increase for DKs (i could see it being a slight one for arms warriors if they're mastery stacked b/c they could potentially generate a lot of soul frags if lucky)
if i had smourne id help with testing from a ret standpoint, but i dont think that sample size from page 2 is accurate enough. on one hand you have the highest dps for the groups on the 1st attempt of mastery stacked smourne, but then you drop almost 600 dps and youre ok with that? you didnt go back and repeat to make sure you didnt mistime a CD or something? b/c if attempt 2 was close to #1 as it should be, then that would have the highest max and highest average. also not sure how you got 4hrs out of those samples unless you did more youre not listing (8 different sets, 2 attempts each...even at 10 mins each thats less than 3hrs, just sayin)
OP
OP
Aelobin
DK Twink (80 / 85 / 101)
It wasn't until Cataclysm that haste increased rune regen for DKs, so noone stacked it (I had 103% haste in that gear, which gave me a 1.78 weapon speed). Combat lasted around 460secs on both attempts, with 46 procs in the first (~10s per proc) and 44 in the second (~10.5s). But yeh, cancelling the buff probably isn't the reason for the DPS increase like I first thought.
It's very likely that the differences in DPS was due to RNG or human error, as a frost DK is very RNG dependant (Runic Empowerment, Killing Machine, Rime, Might of the Frozen Wastes, Rune of the Fallen Crusader, along with the normal crits etc). There's no way for me to produce very accurate results without a large sample size or hitting a dummy for a week straight. I probably will go back and re-do some of them, but it gets really boring after a while
I figured out 4 hours by just subtracting the first start time on WoL from the last end time (although I did have a quick break for dinner somewhere in the middle). Empower Rune Weapon has a 5min cd which I used twice per attempt (so there was at least 10mins between the start of one attempt and the next). There was a few times where someone would come along and debuff the target dummy after I'd been attacking it for 5mins, so I'd have to start over. Add in the time to upload/clear the combat log file and reforge/respec
Last edited by a moderator:
OP
OP
Aelobin
DK Twink (80 / 85 / 101)
Aye I thought the same at first, but then I figured there were some things effecting those numbers (compared to the 14-15k I got from simming). I didn't use the temp ghoul or army (although tbh I probably should have), no pots/pre-pots (they actually give a huge jump in dps), no flask (or raid buffs/debuffs, but I didn't include them in the sims), no 2t10, not BiS (there's a couple ICC items that are better I think).
WoL was showing ~1k lower dps than Recount (which could just be because it's more accurate, or the results were being skewed by either nearby people or DoTs ticking at the end). There was also a handful of blocked attacks which is a bit annoying >_<
Last edited by a moderator:
Splosion
Mr Theory
That kind of stuff was fixed long before, the fact that every top dps player with shadowmourne was using an addon that did something that blizzard never intended, caused the change. It was a huge thing.
Well naturally. The case was around 400 dps if you had Tiny abomination in a jar (which sadly, is useless now)
I suppose we'll have to see how it pans out with a ret doing this level of extensive testing in BiS. Retribution mastery has changed since cataclysm's release (long after most rets shelved their shadowmourne), and as such it's quite possible that ret does get more out of it. Seal mechanics have changed, but we still get two "hits" per swing, the seal application counting as a hit never changed, it was all the "hidden" hits that we got at the time that added up to so much.
Indeed, looks like we need a bigger set of data, but that is rather hard to obtain with twinks (so few of us, and rarely are there in any range of gear. A different frost dk with half his gear different to aelobin's could provide a completely set of data). We have simcraft, but that isn't real-life, because it often ignores some stuff (shadowmourne proc, some trinkets, etc). However, simcraft was giving me self-buffed dps on a dummy within 1% of my own output, so I'd say it isn't far off (at least for retribution)
Splosion
Mr Theory
It's true, but like I said it does miss some things (The tests aelobin has been doing is just to prove which is better, whitefin or SM, since simcraft didn't model the proc)
OP
OP
Aelobin
DK Twink (80 / 85 / 101)
Although I love playing Frost, I've realised I have no choice but to spec Unholy if I wanna max my dps. In non-optimal gear and me doing a fail attempt at the rotation, I managed to hit ~14k sustained dps on a target dummy. I think after some practice and gear changes, 15-16k would be doable.
And yeh, the buffs/procs from SM aren't included in Simcraft anymore.
And yeh, the buffs/procs from SM aren't included in Simcraft anymore.
Nesyla
Legend
As i'm planning on gearing a dk i have a question on this part, can you see unholy being the best spec for all the bosses or would frost come up better in certain situations ?
Falkor
Twink Info Legend
still disagree
1) b/c not everyone was doing it, there were people doing it the "legit" way of /cancelaura macros (for testing at the very least)
2) the % of ret pallys (the only ones that really gained dps from the addon) that had smourne before it was broken was very low. it was one of the causes, but the root of the problem was addons doing things for the player w/o direction...they dont want an addon playing the game for you in future situations, so they broke it then. same with addons like avr (back in 3.3.5)
pretty sure it was already assumed on EJ you were using TAJ b/c that was part of a bis ret set up (and would help account for 5+ frags on one hit). the dps gain was around 200 on average, but anywhere from 1-300 depending on soul fragment generation luck and how fast chaos bane could be canceled. if you want to believe it was as high as a 400 dps increase, fine. but ive found nothing to indicate it was that high...plus it doesnt matter since it certainly isnt anywhere near that much of a difference anymore
ps is it just me or does wowhead show 264 and 277 TAJ with the same hit rating. would make getting 277 pointless unless it procs more. just weird
OP
OP
Aelobin
DK Twink (80 / 85 / 101)
Maybe in AoE situations (trash/DW/lootship/LK p3) because of mastery stacking + HB/FS spam.
Nesyla
Legend
Aight thank you.
Splosion
Mr Theory
The 277 does proc more. it stacks to 7, not 8, which was a large dps gain. The hit was just a necessary evil at the time.
OP
OP
Aelobin
DK Twink (80 / 85 / 101)
I've been playing around with the scaling factors on Simcraft. I'm not sure they they work properly for level 80s, but there were some interesting results:
2h Unholy: (Wowhead)
Hit > Wdps > Str > Crit > Mastery > Haste > Exp > Agi > AP > Armor
2h Frost: (Wowhead)
Wdps > Hit > Exp > Str = Mastery > Crit > Haste > Agi > AP > Armor
DW Frost: (Wowhead)
Wdps > WOHdps > Hit > Exp > Haste = Str > Mastery > Crit > Agi > AP > Armor
2h Unholy: (Wowhead)
Hit > Wdps > Str > Crit > Mastery > Haste > Exp > Agi > AP > Armor
| Hit | 5.2282 |
| Wdps | 4.8408 |
| Str | 2.7657 |
| Crit | 2.6652 |
| Mastery | 2.4162 |
| Haste | 2.2938 |
| Exp | 1.6268 |
| Agi | 1.2560 |
| AP | 0.7563 |
| Armor | 0.0302 |
2h Frost: (Wowhead)
Wdps > Hit > Exp > Str = Mastery > Crit > Haste > Agi > AP > Armor
| Wdps | 8.5163 |
| Hit | 4.1963 |
| Exp | 2.9677 |
| Str | 2.1925 |
| Mastery | 2.1918 |
| Crit | 2.1372 |
| Haste | 1.9805 |
| Agi | 1.1502 |
| AP | 0.7881 |
| Armor | 0.0295 |
DW Frost: (Wowhead)
Wdps > WOHdps > Hit > Exp > Haste = Str > Mastery > Crit > Agi > AP > Armor
| Wdps | 5.9686 |
| WOHdps | 3.6969 |
| Hit | 3.1556 |
| Exp | 2.7299 |
| Haste | 2.4466 |
| Str | 2.4247 |
| Mastery | 2.2962 |
| Crit | 1.9607 |
| Agi | 1.0367 |
| AP | 0.8729 |
| Armor | 0.0290 |
OP
OP
Aelobin
DK Twink (80 / 85 / 101)
Tonight's discovery in the DK world: The unholy stat prio is still the same as level 85 (haste > crit > mastery) but there's a few "breakpoints" for haste:
~12.50% (410) haste = Gargoyle GCD cap (found on Elitist Jerks)
~20.31% (666) haste = Unknown (found on Elitist Jerks)
~24.40% (800) haste = Crit becomes more valuable (discovered through simming)
~28.82% (945) haste = Mastery becomes move valuable (discovered through simming)
~12.50% (410) haste = Gargoyle GCD cap (found on Elitist Jerks)
~20.31% (666) haste = Unknown (found on Elitist Jerks)
~24.40% (800) haste = Crit becomes more valuable (discovered through simming)
~28.82% (945) haste = Mastery becomes move valuable (discovered through simming)
Splosion
Mr Theory
I'd still be a little wary, given how haste affects shadowmoune and its proc (depending if you're using the /cancelaura or not)