Bracket extremely bursty right now?
- Thread starter glancealot
- Start date
Bop
Remember the Treeline
Is there an ... ALTERNATIVE to playing BGs all day against the same 6 hunters and 4 healers? Tell me more!
Chops
Soccer Dad
the plural here is the important part
Bop
Remember the Treeline
Yeah but with a teammate you're 100% of your team. As opposed to 20%. I'd rather have 0 npcs than 8 npcs.
JadeFire
Worthless
It's still a pyramid just like any game ever.
I mean your power level tho is still the only factor... you can be the best player in the world and with the wrong class/spec you can still be 20% of your team. I get it, but arena has just as many issues as BGs do...just different ones.
Chops
Soccer Dad
Not really. It's far more rock-paper-scissors between the top comps than it is a ladder of superiority.
Not really true, either. I've watched (both from the losing side and through streams) some of the best players in this bracket play what you'd call "meme" specs to exceptional effect.
If you're only position is "there exists a hierarchy of specs and comps" then sure, no argument. But its not nearly as stratified as you think it is and its far more likely in arena that the better players, rather than the better comps, win
JadeFire
Worthless
I'll argue that 99% of the time I have the hope of watching somebody that I think might pull off a meme spec play one... its just crushed under the failure of the spec and not skill (outside of when they are just on the lopsided winning team and just playing unheeded)... "this dude is gonna bring it with enhance/ret... *fart*"
Sure arena punishes the meme specs less than an open BG... but, you are only gonna get so far. A Kick or CC does not come back faster because you have more skill... there are just limitations to what you can do at 20 versus something like end game where there are FAR more things to do and choices to make per second.
That being said, I'll 100% stipulate that arena at 20 has its own learning curve and I stipulate that "some people suck".
Chops
Soccer Dad
brb telling flynn that ret sucks
Fael
Believer
Who is this Flynn? I know Wizkid's got that Jinkies kid on call
Bop
Remember the Treeline
I agree that you can't push something beyond what it's capable of - but I think rarely is anyone ever pressured to push something that hard in BGs. Individual skill is a factor in winning a BG - but it's much more subdued compared to average team skill, how tryhard people are willing to be to focus on objectives, comp dynamics (as you say, skill is pretty meaningless when it's, as an example, 6 hunters + 4 healers vs. 1 healer, 9 non-hunters), etc.
In arena, you still have comp dynamics - but really this just means "Hunters", since counter comping is very, very, very far from being the most outcome determinative thing in skirmishes right now. You generally have to have a pretty elite playing field before counter comping matters.
I think a big part of it for me is that most hunters are actually not very good at the game. Shocker, I know. In arena, where they can't rely on smashing their face into the middle of a giant teamfight and wiping your group of levelers faster than you wipe theirs, it's a lot easier to outplay their lack of game mechanics.
Your skill can have much more impact. You have more LoS potential and fewer players throwing themselves at you. It's much easier to simply throw frost shocks at the MM casting Aimed Shot, then line at the last second, repeat. For Survival, you can Unleash Shield their engage and try to beat them at a range while they're slowed. Do they still do ungodly amounts of ranged damage? Sure. But it's almost - *almost* - at a point where most hybrids can 1v1 them in a ranged fight.
tl;dr, skill is a bigger part of the "do I win" pie chart in arenas, imo.
troublesomesleeper
Veteran
Bop
Remember the Treeline
It's probably one of the strongest comps you can make without using hunter, I would agree. I don't think it's unbeatable, but it's incredibly well rounded.
The US 20s arena discord generally treats the ladder as no-holds-barred, but some of the main arena community members have a gentleman's agreement not to use hunter - just for context of what I said above.
troublesomesleeper
Veteran
Arenas are meant to be chill solo q fun imo, but you get people who queue with actual strong comps to ensure wins.
Solo q on bgs is horrid, and on arenas its hit or miss
Solo q on bgs is horrid, and on arenas its hit or miss
Bop
Remember the Treeline
Arenas are meant to be chill solo q fun imo, but you get people who queue with actual strong comps to ensure wins.
Solo q on bgs is horrid, and on arenas its hit or miss
Well in its defense, there is an actual skirmish ladder. It's a lot of fighting levelers, but occasionally you will fight some other strong teams so the rating is *somewhat* indicative of who is good.
Level 20 skirm ladder
Edit - it also resets between seasons, which is pretty important for it to remain competitive.
troublesomesleeper
Veteran
Sounds like the same rhetoric used by the BG premade crew. "Sometimes" we face another premade, and when we don't we win instantly - to the detriment of the solo q team + the bracket.
Premades for BGs or Arenas should sync into other premades - vs lvlers is easy win.
Solo queue you will be missed.
Ivo
Dedicated Guide Author
There are specs that are good in big fights that are considered good bg specs and those who work better in small fights.
Example: enh shaman in a big WSG fight is close to useless and definetely not something I would want to be pocket healing as it drops too quickly. Enh in arena or small node fights is much better though. Same thing goes for most of the weak bg specs like ele, balance, feral, ret, monk, dh etc. Put them in a big fight and they do nothing compared to what a hunter, lock, priest would do but in a small fight they instantly become a lot better. That's why ret is a wheelchair in bg but one of the top specs in arena or why balance is so good on off nodes rather than in team fight. This is the reason why some specs are so good in duels while not so good in bg. And yes, I know there's that "super good player who always carries on an undergeared DH or something" and how I'm just too bad at the game to realize it but that's not how things work. You either play a good spec or don't play at all.
From what I've seen most people play every class the same way and complain when they get killed by a hunter. As someone who has almost all classes twinked out, I've seen the differences and can easily tell that the majority of specs don't work in bgs. They require a good team and not-so-good opponent to work. You simply can't play havoc and do well in every single bg. Sometimes you die before you reach the enemy. You can play a priest or hunter and you'll do well in every game, regardless of teams. You complain about hunters but I wouldn't want a hunter on my team to be swapped with a DH or balance druid unless it's a very unbalanced game in my favor. Just deal with it and reroll to something that works. If you're tired of enh shaman dying too quickly, roll a fury warr. If you don't like ele sham, roll a warlock. Can't really play an undergeared niche spec and complain about how other specs are stronger and that people prefer to play them. No one in their right mind would roll a niche spec that has 3 buttons at 20 unless he's been playing it for a long time.
Example: enh shaman in a big WSG fight is close to useless and definetely not something I would want to be pocket healing as it drops too quickly. Enh in arena or small node fights is much better though. Same thing goes for most of the weak bg specs like ele, balance, feral, ret, monk, dh etc. Put them in a big fight and they do nothing compared to what a hunter, lock, priest would do but in a small fight they instantly become a lot better. That's why ret is a wheelchair in bg but one of the top specs in arena or why balance is so good on off nodes rather than in team fight. This is the reason why some specs are so good in duels while not so good in bg. And yes, I know there's that "super good player who always carries on an undergeared DH or something" and how I'm just too bad at the game to realize it but that's not how things work. You either play a good spec or don't play at all.
From what I've seen most people play every class the same way and complain when they get killed by a hunter. As someone who has almost all classes twinked out, I've seen the differences and can easily tell that the majority of specs don't work in bgs. They require a good team and not-so-good opponent to work. You simply can't play havoc and do well in every single bg. Sometimes you die before you reach the enemy. You can play a priest or hunter and you'll do well in every game, regardless of teams. You complain about hunters but I wouldn't want a hunter on my team to be swapped with a DH or balance druid unless it's a very unbalanced game in my favor. Just deal with it and reroll to something that works. If you're tired of enh shaman dying too quickly, roll a fury warr. If you don't like ele sham, roll a warlock. Can't really play an undergeared niche spec and complain about how other specs are stronger and that people prefer to play them. No one in their right mind would roll a niche spec that has 3 buttons at 20 unless he's been playing it for a long time.
