blinding vanishes, vanishing blinds, and the discussion therof

jenif

OG
lately myself and several other rogues on vek have been really pushing ourselves to master some of the more lesser known tricks at a rogue's disposal. nearly every time i'm online we end up with a small raid of mongoose'd 39s outside IF doing nothing but vanishing and blinding each other over and over again. most of the time we look like idiots because the majority of us thought it was strictly a luck and/or anticipatory thing. but recently we've made breakthroughs.



this is a thread on rogue vs rogue, on openers and counter openers, on vanishing blinds and blinding vanishes. i've met a lot of players - level 39 and 80 alike - that insist it's a fluke thing. that blinding a person's vanish and vanishing their blinds is strictly anticipatory and can't possibly be reliable. this is not true. last week i discovered what i think is the answer to the technique, or at least a step in the right direction. all week i have been testing it with not just myself, but other rogues. so far i have shown decent rogues how to do it and even a clicker how to time it properly. the clicker did it several times, landing 7/10 blinds on my vanishes. during randomly timed tests. so it's official, this is real.



the answer is in the sound. turn down your ambiance and music, both in game and out. put away your pandora for the moment folks and listen. vanish has a very distinct sound effect, and so does blind (though it's much more subtle). i find that it helps if i actually direct attention away from the screen and just keep my peripheral on the action while concentrating on listening. as soon as you hear the sfx hit your counter of choice and if you're quick enough (and aren't lagging much) it will land. this seems to work surprisingly reliably so long as i'm under 200ms.



how many of you 39 rogues have been looking into this, and what are your findings? have you discovered a better way to reliably, without crutching on guesswork and assumption, blind vanishes and vis versa? share your methods so we can turn this into a cornerstone rogue strategy!
 
I don't think there's a better way. I pay attention to the sound and the graphics of blind and vanish, but I still get blinded out of Vanish sometimes. Latency I guess. I can pull it off most of the time though, just like Hammer of Justice when a paladin comes out of a stunlock.
 
Question: is there any use in other classes (namely those with instant cast spells) learning/doing this?
 
yup. you can use any instant cast spell to cancel a rogue's vanish (at the cost of the spell) such as shadow word paining a rogue's vanish or flame/frost shocking it. alternatively a rogue could blind a priest's psy scream if it's a no trinket duel or if the rogue knows the priest's trink is on CD. it's a two way street :)
 
Never played with sound on, always annoyed me :p. Will try this stuff out with mate.



On the same sort of line as rogue tricks, vanishing frostbolts/fears etc. Getting the extra combo points at start of a duel sap->cs->stealthm switching weps for poisons. Gouge into bandage even.,



Does anyone know anymore general stuff like that? >>

And Jenif have you got another link to your video, not up anymore on viemo.
 
A common one that people sometimes forget, and that is very useful is Blind --> Stealth (ooc) or Vanish (incombat) -->Sap. Comes in handy especially in a 1vX situation, especially if you can render a healer useless for 20 seconds or more.
 
jenif said:
yup. you can use any instant cast spell to cancel a rogue's vanish (at the cost of the spell) such as shadow word paining a rogue's vanish or flame/frost shocking it. alternatively a rogue could blind a priest's psy scream if it's a no trinket duel or if the rogue knows the priest's trink is on CD. it's a two way street :)



Well, with the dots though, it seems like you can just get those off, then their vanish is already of limited use. And blinding a psy scream... by that don't you mean preventing it's use, or do you mean actually timing it at the same time... and it fails to actually fear anyone because you timed it right? I don't think I've ever seen Psy scream fail to affect someone because I was CCed at the right time. I've been stunned or blinded at the same time before, and the other party was always feared anyway...
 
Jadyn said:
Well, with the dots though, it seems like you can just get those off, then their vanish is already of limited use. And blinding a psy scream... by that don't you mean preventing it's use, or do you mean actually timing it at the same time... and it fails to actually fear anyone because you timed it right? I don't think I've ever seen Psy scream fail to affect someone because I was CCed at the right time. I've been stunned or blinded at the same time before, and the other party was always feared anyway...



Yeah being blinded/gouged at the same instant as you fear is what hes talking about.
 
"Never played with sound on, always annoyed me"



gasp!!! the sound in the game is one of the most important variables to pay attention to while playing. Turning the music off is a must, but the sound effects themselves can tell you a ton about what is going on around you that you cannot directly see. I hear rogues around me long before I ever see them, not to mention many/most spells/skills have specific sounds. Its a great way to know if somebody is about to death ray you ;p
 
Alteffour said:
"Never played with sound on, always annoyed me"



gasp!!! the sound in the game is one of the most important variables to pay attention to while playing.



Different playstyles eh :p anyway I'll give it a go and see if I convert^^



useabandage said:
as a priest I always holy nova the second I leave a stun



Is this too anyone in particular? :p
 
Jadyn said:
Well, with the dots though, it seems like you can just get those off, then their vanish is already of limited use. And blinding a psy scream... by that don't you mean preventing it's use, or do you mean actually timing it at the same time... and it fails to actually fear anyone because you timed it right? I don't think I've ever seen Psy scream fail to affect someone because I was CCed at the right time. I've been stunned or blinded at the same time before, and the other party was always feared anyway...



blinding the fear so that the priest can't do anything during. sometimes SW:p is ending its duration during the fear so it gives the rogue a free restealth. very situational and not very practical but i was just using it as a potential example. get creative! :)
 
Tricks I used as a rogue were...



Vanish Blinds



Blinding a vanish is a little trickier, not worth it usually. Better to just not be dumb.



KS>Sap>CS>Bandage>restealth (If the person has an instant and knows you're doing this, you will need to blow vanish).



Sap>Garrote>rupture>sprint>restealth



Sap>CS>Garrote>KS



Vanish fears, vanish basically anything that comes your way is possible.
 
vanish + CS with the flag, knowing/assuming your opponent doesn't have trinket up. if it's a mage you're on, also know it can't blink right at the spot you're at (some spots make blink a 0 yd rather than 20/25 yd move).



also, stealth + sap with the flag, assuming the target you're sapping is out of combat. although i do know sometimes blizz feels like keeping me in combat for a minute for no reason on a non-hunter/lock :confused:.



do these when you think there's only one person around though



remember to regrab the flag of course
 
Druiddroid said:
vanish + CS with the flag, knowing/assuming your opponent doesn't have trinket up. if it's a mage you're on, also know it can't blink right at the spot you're at (some spots make blink a 0 yd rather than 20/25 yd move).



also, stealth + sap with the flag, assuming the target you're sapping is out of combat. although i do know sometimes blizz feels like keeping me in combat for a minute for no reason on a non-hunter/lock :confused:.



do these when you think there's only one person around though



remember to regrab the flag of course



Yeah but most mages arent smart like that. Usually they will blink to get distance as their running flag. (And usually I'm right there to greet them with a cheap shot (Excluding you ofcourse)) With sap and flag. That is a pretty risky game your playing. (Although vanishing back before the debuff was the icing on my cake on Shadowblades) Expecially if its a human mage. Because They ALWAYS have that $%# up!
 
Tusktuki said:
Yeah but most mages arent smart like that. Usually they will blink to get distance as their running flag. (And usually I'm right there to greet them with a cheap shot (Excluding you ofcourse)) With sap and flag. That is a pretty risky game your playing. (Although vanishing back before the debuff was the icing on my cake on Shadowblades) Expecially if its a human mage. Because They ALWAYS have that $%# up!



heh true you have to gauge the skill of the mage and pay attention to when they blink. sometimes you can get away with them not blinking at all.



when you FC, sometimes you have to take huge risks and it often ends in tragedy
 
Conrose said:
I am notorious for anticipating a rogue's and cancelling vanish with an Arcane Shot on my BG. A big help to pulling it off is PvPing often as a rogue. Knowing when a rogue would Ideally use a vanish is a big bonus to countering it.



hmm...I always thought if a rogue vanished right once a spell or something is about to hit, it resisted the spell...



so how would blinding the vanish work exactly?
 
sylar said:
hmm...I always thought if a rogue vanished right once a spell or something is about to hit, it resisted the spell...



so how would blinding the vanish work exactly?



For the longest time, it meant resisting spell damage or being immune to damage as you vanished. This was a window of about a tenths of a second. Spells/abilities that are cast as they vanish but have air time can land on the rogue after this grace period, thus knocking a rogue out of stealth.



Additionally, latency issues can cause instantly hitting spells/abilities to be cast after a rogue really vanished but before the server gets this information to the casting player's computer... resulting in a hit landing outside the vanish grace period.
 

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