Activity and Competition - Coexist

[Mocha]

Introduction
In this post I will address the issue of activity and address the desire for competition. I will provide an open ended suggestion to help us change as a community should we desire to do so. I will give you my opinions on the subject and I hope to see yours in return. I am a casual player at this point but I take communities seriously. There will be no off topic posts, trolling posts, disrespectful or flaming posts in this thread. Please do not take this as a challenge and please keep this thread constructive. I am trying to make things more enjoyable for everyone.




Activity
Whether or not we care for each other is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is we rely on each other to have fun playing our twinks. If we did not care for this bracket, we would not be trying to keep our community going and we would be content playing in the 20-24 bracket. With that being said, we rely on each other in order to enjoy our twinks.

Consider a chess match only with no opponent. This is the scenario that we are dealing with right now. How we got here is a different discussion. What is clear is that we need to change our priorities in order to produce growth in our community. We may continue to only get pops on a scheduled basis and that is fine with many of us here. However, wouldn't it be better if we could enjoy our bracket whenever we were interested in doing so?




Competition
Up until now competition has been the driving force between 19s. It was always about which rogue was better than another, or which group of 5 was better than another or which guild was better than another. Believe me, I have lived through the rising of competition and the decline in competition. It would be great to enjoy games full of geared twinks all on viable classes whenever we would like to. Competition is what makes games enjoyable for most people in the community and when under geared players join games, we feel the affect and as a result we have less fun.

However at this point games come on a scheduled basis and there is the premading season of the summer. Nobody is having any fun at all. If we would like to change things back to having consistent pops on a daily basis and perhaps an extension to the premading season, our interests and priorities simply need to change. What do we need to do?





Pugs
Pugs are practice games. Anyone should be able to enjoy pugs whether or not they are highly geared or not. There needs to exist two levels of gameplay in the 19 twink community. One for high competition and one that is more inclusive and welcoming to those who are not as experienced where they can develop their ability to join a more competitive atmosphere.

Pugs should not consist of groups running into WSG with Skype looking to dominate anyone. With this being said, people should be looking to pug solo and on whatever class / spec they wish to play. I encourage we stay away from playing the most powerful classes for the sole purpose of them being the most powerful.

Pugs cannot be about winning all the time. Pugs should be about encouraging respectful gameplay and sportsmanship. Right now we do not see pugs often.





Wargames
If you're looking for competition it is not hard to choose your teammates and synchronize wargames. You do not even need a full team of 10 players. You get to select who's going to partake in your matches. Therefore, under geared teammates will never even come in to play.

Wargames can happen any time we chose for them to. With that being said organizing wargames on nights where pugs are scheduled will only result in a this or that option as opposed to both levels of gameplay coexisting.

Wargames should be all about teamwork and winning as a team. This is where you're looking to dominate your opponent whether it be a 7v7 or a 10 v 10 guild vs guild premade.






Activity and Competition Go Hand-In-Hand
Right now we need activity. We need numbers. That means working to recruit others on our servers and working with less skilled players. We need to make the 15-19 bracket open and available to them and when they do participate in a pug we need to make sure that they want to come back and that they want to requeue.

I'm not saying to lose the desire for competition. I'm saying that we need to continue with scheduled pug pops on a weekly basis while we also provide room for highly competitive wargames in between. Wargames do not require much effort. Most people who would partake in these games are spending time on other characters and would be looking to enjoy highly competitive games at 19. I understand that it's hard to play other specs in pugs when you're looking to develop your skill for wargames, but if we do more wargames they will become practices in and of themselves.


I am not looking to take any attention away from Myrm's tournament. I just hope that more of you begin trying to find others who would be interested in playing pugs at 19 and I hope you take initiative to play other specs and classes in attempt to keep pugs fun for other puggers.






TLDR: Play wargames if you're interested in competition. Stop looking for competition in pugs and stop rolling into pugs looking to dominate. In time pugs will become more competitive and we will gain more members interested in twinking in our bracket. Wargames are independent from activity.





Please post your opinions, thoughts and suggestions and do so in a respectful manner. As a casual player I'm content with having pugs on a weekly basis, however we can also create a more enjoyable community for those who are not only casual but those of us who are more interested in a highly competitive atmosphere.


Cheers,
Mocha

 

[Jetlife]

As a casual player I'm content with having pugs on a weekly basis, however we can also create a more enjoyable community for those who are not only casual but those of us who are more interested in a highly competitive atmosphere.
Cheers,
Mocha

the majority of us would be content with having pugs on a weekly basis. too bad not even this happens, I think the best thing we can do is give up on this bracket till summer time, as it quite likely cannot and won't be revived till then


in other words move to 24 or 70 (or 85, i think they get pops) like the rest, people arent motivated to play this bracket from the looks of it and its made me lose motivation as well. personally prolly wont que again till summer like many others aren't

 

[Jadyne]

The network effect is a double edged sword. Use it in your favor, or it will act to your disfavor.

 

[Jadyne]

“When nothing seems to help, I go look at a stonecutter hammering away at his rock perhaps a hundred times without as much as a crack showing in it. Yet at the hundred and first blow it will split in two, and I know it was not that blow that did it, but all that had gone before.” - Jacob Riis

In other words, come up with a system for accomplishing what you want to do, and stick to it. I would add, however, that you need to always set - ahead of time - the parameters for when you stop and conclude what you're doing isn't working. Don't leave it to your mood, figure things out ahead of time as much as you can, then try it, and if it doesn't work by the time you set, then try a new approach.

 

[Nicozy]

The reason for why games are not happening is due to the lack of competitiveness. How you lack to understand this is beyond me, you truly have to be blind, pretty much all the competitive players left the bracket and thus it died.

The bracket was alive due to these groups/guilds. What usually happens with players who like the emphasize on having "fun" is to market the actual good competitive players in the bracket as some "niche" group when in fact they were and have always been the guys making games pop since EXP off bgs started.


There are several particular reasons for why 19s just stopped happening on a daily basis. Newguys/clueless people constantly queuing up rogues having 0 knowledge of how to play one in a mop setting, 65% battlefatigue often causing only truly elite healers(tier 1 premade ones) to be able to keep games competitive. General imbalance between horde and alliance, often forcing horde players to log alts on alliance side. Top guilds looking into other adventures due to lack of newcomers who are willing to learn and improve. A mix between blizzards game balance and beyond horrible pug games.

These are just some of the reasons for why games stopped.

The reasons for why premade season during the summer even happens is due to the excellent games that you have a chance to have in pugs and that did happen quite regularly before and during last summer.

The people who have complained day in and day out on the forums about overpowered classes/midfighting/groupqueueing, who have been sad when someone told them to please ambush the efc at 9 stacks atleast once if you intend on playing rogue, who likes running around with flag on a resto druid 14 laps around the map while the rest of your team is getting gy contained ,they have what they want.

They can just get all the people who agree with them(Which they always claim is a massive majority and the "real" community") and having the "fun" pug games where you don't actually care about winning, where you /salute each other before engagin in a resto shaman 1v1 fight 4 lightyears from mid while typing "Hey guys can you please help me with my transmog, I want to look less of a prick" in the BG chat.

But guess what, that has yet to happen because the 19s that have made games happen since the exp off patch have left the bracket due to bad pugs.

I am sure games will probably happen this summer as people have time off from work/school which is always a great boost to brackets. I am most looking forward to WOD tho as the initial comments from blizzard could potentially give us more solid gameplay for lower lvl brackets, but after the first month or two be certain that just like now the only thing that is going to keep it alive is competitive games with a large base of players who enjoy improving and will thus put the time and effort to queue on a regular basis.

I think trying to get new players to the bracket would be great so I hope you continue on that journey Mocha.

 

[The Saint]

The reason for why games are not happening is due to the lack of competitiveness. How you lack to understand this is beyond me, you truly have to be blind, pretty much all the competitive players left the bracket and thus it died.

The bracket was alive due to these groups/guilds. What usually happens with players who like the emphasize on having "fun" is to market the actual good competitive players in the bracket as some "niche" group when in fact they were and have always been the guys making games pop since EXP off bgs started.


There are several particular reasons for why 19s just stopped happening on a daily basis. Newguys/clueless people constantly queuing up rogues having 0 knowledge of how to play one in a mop setting, 65% battlefatigue often causing only truly elite healers(tier 1 premade ones) to be able to keep games competitive. General imbalance between horde and alliance, often forcing horde players to log alts on alliance side. Top guilds looking into other adventures due to lack of newcomers who are willing to learn and improve. A mix between blizzards game balance and beyond horrible pug games.

These are just some of the reasons for why games stopped.

The reasons for why premade season during the summer even happens is due to the excellent games that you have a chance to have in pugs and that did happen quite regularly before and during last summer.

The people who have complained day in and day out on the forums about overpowered classes/midfighting/groupqueueing, who have been sad when someone told them to please ambush the efc at 9 stacks atleast once if you intend on playing rogue, who likes running around with flag on a resto druid 14 laps around the map while the rest of your team is getting gy contained ,they have what they want.

They can just get all the people who agree with them(Which they always claim is a massive majority and the "real" community") and having the "fun" pug games where you don't actually care about winning, where you /salute each other before engagin in a resto shaman 1v1 fight 4 lightyears from mid while typing "Hey guys can you please help me with my transmog, I want to look less of a prick" in the BG chat.

But guess what, that has yet to happen because the 19s that have made games happen since the exp off patch have left the bracket due to bad pugs.

I am sure games will probably happen this summer as people have time off from work/school which is always a great boost to brackets. I am most looking forward to WOD tho as the initial comments from blizzard could potentially give us more solid gameplay for lower lvl brackets, but after the first month or two be certain that just like now the only thing that is going to keep it alive is competitive games with a large base of players who enjoy improving and will thus put the time and effort to queue on a regular basis.

I think trying to get new players to the bracket would be great so I hope you continue on that journey Mocha.

you left out most of the bracket being tossers, don't forget that one.

oh, and if us bads wasn't the majority, why are you pros not getting pop?

 

[Mocha]

I have to ask, did you even read this thread? This thread is not asking why 19s no longer pop.

This thread is about moving on and providing a suggestion for making everyone happy. This includes the highly competitive players that you speak of that are oh-so-numerous and the casual 19 twinkers who are in it for fun despite them apparently being so scarce. Nevertheless, I will go ahead and address your post:

The reason for why games are not happening is due to the lack of competitiveness. How you lack to understand this is beyond me, you truly have to be blind, pretty much all the competitive players left the bracket and thus it died.

The bracket was alive due to these groups/guilds. What usually happens with players who like the emphasize on having "fun" is to market the actual good competitive players in the bracket as some "niche" group when in fact they were and have always been the guys making games pop since EXP off bgs started.

You're incorrect and here is why:
If this is the case, why aren't these highly competitive guilds getting pops on their own? Why not even wargames?

These highly competitive players are the minority as it is unanimously understood and agreed upon. In every game this year I've seen perhaps 1-3 per faction in the entire game.

You can thank players such as Superstylin, Tellefella, Purj, Myrm, Myself, Shift, Awesome, Laurasia, and about 1-2 dozen players who I've never even seen before for the pops that we've had this year. You have not participated in a single one of the pops that we've had since December - March or so when we started getting more pops. If you had, you would see that the elitist / highly competitive guilds who you say " have been the guys making games pop since EXP off bgs started." Are not even present in the majority of these games, and when they are there are perhaps a slight handful of them.

If you leave pugs for the casual players / the "shit" players as you would describe them, and if these highly competitive players had the numbers to partake in wargames (which at this moment it appears they don't, wonder why that is? Minority?):

a. Competitive players will play competitive games with other competitive players and there will be no issues of class compositions / under geared players which appears to be the reason supplied by these highly competitive players for why games are no longer competitive and as a result they are not interested in 19s.

b. Casual players can also enjoy a game without getting gy farmed and being forced to afk and log for the evening.

Cheers,
Mocha

 

[Solipsist]

You can thank players such as Superstylin, Tellefella, Purj, Myrm, Myself, Shift, Awesome, Laurasia, and about 1-2 dozen players who I've never even seen before for the pops that we've had this year. You have not participated in a single one of the pops that we've had since December - March or so when we started getting more pops. If you had, you would see that the elitist / highly competitive guilds who you say " have been the guys making games pop since EXP off bgs started." Are not even present in the majority of these games, and when they are there are perhaps a slight handful of them.



Cheers,
Mocha

I've seen Nicozy participate in many games from December. How the fuck can you make a judgement like ''I've never seen you play'' when you only play once every month? Just because you've played a bit more than the monthly dose you seem to act like you know how this bracket works.

edit: thanks for adding me as a contribution

 

[Mocha]

you only play once every month?

You have me on real ID? I spend most of the time on my priest which isn't named Mocha.

 

[Dirt Nasty]

You're incorrect and here is why:
If this is the case, why aren't these highly competitive guilds getting pops on their own? Why not even wargames?

So to pretty much most of the people in the bracket it is blatantly obvious who these 'highly competitive guilds' are. It's <Skill Ratio> and <Tough Love>. These 'highly competitive guilds' aren't getting pops on their own because they aren't trying to get pops on their own. If you aren't aware, the majority of <Skill Ratio> has already moved on to Rated Battlegrounds at end-game. I can't speak for <Tough Love>'s reasons for not trying to get pops on the US servers but I'm sure they aren't trying to. Did you really think that a lot of players in <Skill Ratio> and <Tough Love> have been queueing all night, every night, for the last two months?

You can thank players such as Superstylin, Tellefella, Purj, Myrm, Myself, Shift, Awesome, Laurasia, and about 1-2 dozen players who I've never even seen before for the pops that we've had this year.

Although they have contributed, they are not the sole reason for activity this year.

You have not participated in a single one of the pops that we've had since December - March or so when we started getting more pops.

You sure like to claim that you exaggerate in a lot of your assertions. However, that excuse isn't going to work this time, given your use of 'a single one', a very definitive phrase. I decided to take a look through my screenshots folder. Although I can't provide complete evidence due to World of Warcraft not showing the full date in the upper right corner, I can assure you that Nicozy did in fact participate in much more than 'a single one of the pops that we've had since December - March or so', mainly in December where games were extremely competitive. Once January hit, the bracket went down-hill in terms of competitivity.

If you had, you would see that the elitist / highly competitive guilds who you say " have been the guys making games pop since EXP off bgs started." Are not even present in the majority of these games, and when they are there are perhaps a slight handful of them.

This is so wrong that I'm not going to bother providing evidence or an argument. I'd just like to ask who you are defining as these 'elitist / highly competitive guilds'.

If you leave pugs for the casual players / the "shit" players as you would describe them, and if these highly competitive players had the numbers to partake in wargames (which at this moment it appears they don't, wonder why that is? Minority?):

It's not because they are the minority. It's due to lack of interest. There may be a few 'highly competitive players' that still have interest in the bracket, but the majority of them have moved on.

a. Competitive players will play competitive games with other competitive players and there will be no issues of class compositions / under geared players which appears to be the reason supplied by these highly competitive players for why games are no longer competitive and as a result they are not interested in 19s.

b. Casual players can also enjoy a game without getting gy farmed and being forced to afk and log for the evening.

I didn't fully understand the point you're trying to convey here so I'd like to ask you to re-word it or put it into context.

Although,

b. Casual players can also enjoy a game without getting gy farmed and being forced to afk and log for the evening.

No one is forcing anyone to 'afk and log for the evening'. I'm hoping you understand that being reported as 'away' and choosing to leave the battleground and log for the evening are two different things. Once again you have made a statement that just isn't true and you can't use exaggeration as an excuse due to your word choice.






This is pretty much how it went from December-March.

Mid-December is when the 19 twinking bracket picked up in terms of activity. This is largely due to the initiation threads that Agonist made. Games were extremely competitive due to the majority if not all of the players in pick-up games being people who view this site. Many people stated that the bracket was in its best state for a long time.

In late December pick-up games were competitive as well, however a high number of rogues were starting to appear, driving down competition.

In early January, the quality of games starts to go down the drain, but there are still several very competitive games each day. There is a lot of faction imbalance.

Around January 20 is when the bracket really goes down the drain. A lot of people, especially the highly skilled players have lost interest and are no longer queueing. It is hard to find a competitive game. We are back to scheduling queue nights on twinkinfo.com, and those games just aren't the same as the extremely competitive games of the latter half of December and early January.

From February until now, games are scarce and we are back to having to schedule games. Here have been some responses to threads trying to generate activity:

with the current player base? i'd rather be circumcised with chop stick.

I really liked tbc and wrath 'cause healing used to be more fun, prolly not more challenging but definetely somehow way more fun, I am just really not digging the healers not ever going to OOM(even though it was worse in release) but the mana reg is way too high or spell costs way too low and heal values way too big and critting way too often (for example regrowth has passively increased crit chance etc shit)
Also I don't understand why blizzard hates melee classes, nowadays melees have near to no utility compared to wrath and it is really sad considering how they kept buffing ranged damage in the last patches

Can someone please ban Jadyne?

24s waste of time

19s arguably waste of time

39s worth playing

LoL worth playing

CS any version worth playing

Started making a 24. I was on my friends 19 for over an hour with not a single bg pop and I que his 24 and its instant no matter when I que. Seems to me 19s are pretty much dead liie every other twink bracket and the only thing keeping 24s alive ia the f2p.

The way I look at it, we as 24s come in with more ability and gear that is unobtainable to 20's maybr we will convert these 20s to 24s and create competition.

See you in thr Gulch

Diiesel.

I played my first game on my 19 warrior that I just made. Was my first 19 game in like 2 years, idk it wasn't so bad (maybe cuz we pwned). But then after that game there wasn't a pop so I just logged out after like 40 min. I'm gonna make a 24 but people make it sound like 24s just aren't competitive, so I don't know.

Not even getting avg wait time, we still doing this?

45mins into que now

Yeah been in que since 2:00 PST which should be the time people are queing still hasn't popped kinda sad actually

I don't get the point in a schedule if we can't manage it more than once lol.

Almost 3 hours into que now

yeah im beginning to feel like 19s are done, idk how you set up a schedule then do it 1 time and then it falters lol

logged my horde, said avg que 14minutes, 37 min later still not in a BG, went to ally said 7 minute avg and BG popped in 6 minutes.

game was far from GG rather lopsided in healing, many of the alliance were ill geared, missing gear (from quests), missing trinkets, some missing enchants making the game one sided. i even stayed on one healer to see if he was going to config swap into full gear, obviously didn't have it. i have seen F2P-20's with more HP than the 2 healers we had.

i logged a player each faction to BH to see who was on there: two alliance 19's, and seventeen horde 19's. only recognized 9 of the names, not sure if the others were twinks or levelers passing thru 19

Mocha how come you are so bad at twinking even tho you played for so many years? honest question

As you may have heard, mocha is lost in '07. He probably hasn't realized he no longer has gouge or sprint anymore, give the man a break.

mocha the only mod that the entire 19 community (besides players worse than him) collectively think is a shitter.

It is clear that many people have lost interest in the bracket, resulting in low activity. Because the bracket has low activity, new players are not attracted to it.

Just like you can't force a horse to drink water, you can't force the highly skilled players of the bracket to gain interest in this bracket and start queueing.

Activity and competition will coexist when the 'elitist / highly skilled players' gain interest in the bracket again.

If you ask me, I would say that this would be when summer rolls around for reasons others have already stated on the forums.





I'd also like to point out that your moderating habits are not exactly helping the bracket. People are drawn to arguments. Haven't you noticed that the activity in this sub-forum skyrockets when there is a heated argument? When I come across a thread from a year or to ago, I'm blown away with what people were able to say back then.

I feel that far too many posts/threads are deleted, and way too many threads are locked. Take this thread for example:

lets get a pop

Someone makes a thread to generate activity and it soon gets locked by you. I don't understand why. Yes, there may already be a queue thread, but with the state of the bracket in mind, something like this should not be locked. All locking threads does is kill forum activity and I believe forum activity contributes to the bracket's activity. This thread wasn't malicious and this isn't like the Blizzard forums where there are threads being made every minute.

If you ask me, deleting posts/threads should be reserved for real life personal attacks and extremely offensive language.




After reading through your recent posts, I'm really questioning your motives and am starting to consider whether you are trolling this community or not.

 

[Jadyne]

Well.... That was informative. Probably also helps explain the popularity of Cyclone.

 

[Dirt Nasty]

Well.... That was informative. Probably also helps explain the popularity of Cyclone.

I'm enjoying it a lot. Although, I haven't been able to log on for the last few hours.

Is the server still up for everyone else? For the last few hours I haven't been able to log on. I get stuck on 'connecting' which eventually leads to me receiving a message saying I'm unable to connect. I was on several hours earlier today, and my Internet seems to be working fine.

Are you able to log on?


Edit: Never mind, it seems like only French players are able to log on, most likely due to another DDOS attack.

Source: http://www.cyclone19.eu/viewtopic.php?id=52

Double edit:

We got ddos again a few hours ago, only french IP are allowed by our Service provider atm. I won't be able to change that until monday, but if we aren't ddos anymore you should be able to login soon.

 

[Superstylin]

Whoever plays 19s solely for the high intensity competition, maybe the 15-19 bracket was never for you. If you are looking for high intensity gameplay, try 90 arenas or rbgs. If you are looking for a change of gameplay at a lower level with a twist, try 19s.

When I started twinking back in vanilla wow (2006), I did it because I enjoyed killing higher level players with my lower level character. Simple as that. Dueling outside of SW, making higher levels wonder how I managed to beat them. When BG's were infused with levelers, the games were definitely not competitive, but were still fun because you got to see them attempt to counter you. As the years progressed, twinking went up and down, hitting some unbelievable highs, and some disappointing lows. The reason why we as a community have been able to survive over the years is not the 'high intensity competition', which barely existed (talking Pug games here, not premades), but the passion for twinking.

This false notion that people only played because of the extreme competition is absurd. People played because they enjoyed twinking, and thus created a competitive atmosphere. It is a game after all, everyone wants to win.

The activity died down not because all the 'good' people left. It is because some got bored, some were not content with the competition and moved to 90s, and others moved on in life. The idea that we need the 'good' 19s to be active is ridiculous. Saying that even made me laugh. We need people who have a passion for twinking, and want to que up.

Back to the point now.

With what Mocha stated in his original post, and what so many have failed to see, is that we are a community that enjoys 19s. That we rely on each other for pops. People need to get off of their high horse and realize that this is 19s we are talking about. Put your dicks back in your pants and put away the tape measure, because frankly, nobody cares. Competitive people do not control this brackets activity, dedicated people do.

If you are reading this post it means that you must, even in the slightest way, still have a liking for 19 twinking. What Mocha has proposed, if implemented, should make everyone happy. Pugs for everyday games, not to be fretted over, and wargames to bring that competitive edge everyone strives towards.

Right now we do not have the numbers for everyday games, but hopefully with some recruiting and strong leaders, we can bring back activity to where it once was.

-Superstylin

 

[Dirt Nasty]

Whoever plays 19s solely for the high intensity competition, maybe the 15-19 bracket was never for you. If you are looking for high intensity gameplay, try 90 arenas or rbgs. If you are looking for a change of gameplay at a lower level with a twist, try 19s.

When I started twinking back in vanilla wow (2006), I did it because I enjoyed killing higher level players with my lower level character. Simple as that. Dueling outside of SW, making higher levels wonder how I managed to beat them. When BG's were infused with levelers, the games were definitely not competitive, but were still fun because you got to see them attempt to counter you. As the years progressed, twinking went up and down, hitting some unbelievable highs, and some disappointing lows. The reason why we as a community have been able to survive over the years is not the 'high intensity competition', which barely existed (talking Pug games here, not premades), but the passion for twinking.

This false notion that people only played because of the extreme competition is absurd. People played because they enjoyed twinking, and thus created a competitive atmosphere. It is a game after all, everyone wants to win.

The activity died down not because all the 'good' people left. It is because some got bored, some were not content with the competition and moved to 90s, and others moved on in life. The idea that we need the 'good' 19s to be active is ridiculous. Saying that even made me laugh. We need people who have a passion for twinking, and want to que up.

Back to the point now.

With what Mocha stated in his original post, and what so many have failed to see, is that we are a community that enjoys 19s. That we rely on each other for pops. People need to get off of their high horse and realize that this is 19s we are talking about. Put your dicks back in your pants and put away the tape measure, because frankly, nobody cares. Competitive people do not control this brackets activity, dedicated people do.

If you are reading this post it means that you must, even in the slightest way, still have a liking for 19 twinking. What Mocha has proposed, if implemented, should make everyone happy. Pugs for everyday games, not to be fretted over, and wargames to bring that competitive edge everyone strives towards.

Right now we do not have the numbers for everyday games, but hopefully with some recruiting and strong leaders, we can bring back activity to where it once was.

-Superstylin

You've made it blatantly obvious to everyone in the 19 twinking community that you are Mocha.

You have me on real ID? I spend most of the time on my priest which isn't named Mocha.

You of all people should know that it is against the Code of Conduct for a single person to have multiple accounts. I mean you wrote the thing yourself.

I'm really starting to see the 'corruption' of the twinkinfo.com staff that people in the 19 twink community have been talking about for so long.

 

[Mocha]

So to pretty much most of the people in the bracket it is blatantly obvious who these 'highly competitive guilds' are. It's and . These 'highly competitive guilds' aren't getting pops on their own because they aren't trying to get pops on their own. If you aren't aware, the majority of has already moved on to Rated Battlegrounds at end-game. I can't speak for 's reasons for not trying to get pops on the US servers but I'm sure they aren't trying to. Did you really think that a lot of players in and have been queueing all night, every night, for the last two months?

These competitive individuals are not even a contribution to this community at this moment in time.

Although they have contributed, they are not the sole reason for activity this year.

Considering the majority of the "highly competitive players" having moved on, the players I had mentioned are more than a mere contribution. The pops we've had this year would not have occurred had we not been blessed with the presence of unknown players as well as the member's I've listed.

You sure like to claim that you exaggerate in a lot of your assertions. However, that excuse isn't going to work this time, given your use of 'a single one', a very definitive phrase. I decided to take a look through my screenshots folder. Although I can't provide complete evidence due to World of Warcraft not showing the full date in the upper right corner, I can assure you that Nicozy did in fact participate in much more than 'a single one of the pops that we've had since December - March or so', mainly in December where games were extremely competitive. Once January hit, the bracket went down-hill in terms of competitivity.

I had not seen Nicozy in a single game in that time period hence my statement. That's not to say that he wasn't, perhaps the ones that he were in I was not in and vice versa. That does not by any means make my statement untrue nor an exaggeration which you find to be so outlandish.

This is so wrong that I'm not going to bother providing evidence or an argument. I'd just like to ask who you are defining as these 'elitist / highly competitive guilds'.

It's wrong to say that the amount of "highly competitive" individuals are rarely seen in pugs as of this year? We both just agreed that they are no longer a part of our community at this time. You defined these people as Skill Ratio and Tough Love, all of which have been nearly absent as of the start of this year.

It's not because they are the minority. It's due to lack of interest. There may be a few 'highly competitive players' that still have interest in the bracket, but the majority of them have moved on.

I agree. The ones remaining are few and far between. I could care less about accounting for players who are not even a contributing factor to the community (i.e. people who have moved on due to lack of interest)

I didn't fully understand the point you're trying to convey here so I'd like to ask you to re-word it or put it into context.

The point is, the few players who are left in our community who are looking to steamroll pugs should move on from that mindset and leave that gameplay to Wargames. They should take this opportunity to play alts in pugs or perhaps learn a new class or spec in pugs and not join a pug looking to completely demolish the other faction. They can enjoy their steamrolling / competitive wargames and those who don't wish to spend the next few months in ghost form can carry on and play at our own convenience.

Although,No one is forcing anyone to 'afk and log for the evening'. I'm hoping you understand that being reported as 'away' and choosing to leave the battleground and log for the evening are two different things. Once again you have made a statement that just isn't true and you can't use exaggeration as an excuse due to your word choice.

It is foolish to assume that I don't understand the difference between being afkd out and one doing it himself.It's about responsibility. If a team is containing an opposing team in GY for the entire game, they cannot attempt to disprove their influence in the players who afk out because of that. Had they not contained the entire game, those players in most scenarios would not have deserter. The people who are containing the opposing team are making the game unenjoyable for the opposing team. Remember when I referenced a one sided chess match? That is why people should aim to keep things enjoyable for everyone involved in the game and by extension giving them reason to not afk out and prolong queues.

This is pretty much how it went from December-March.Mid-December is when the 19 twinking bracket picked up in terms of activity. This is largely due to the initiation threads that Agonist made. Games were extremely competitive due to the majority if not all of the players in pick-up games being people who view this site. Many people stated that the bracket was in its best state for a long time.In late December pick-up games were competitive as well, however a high number of rogues were starting to appear, driving down competition.In early January, the quality of games starts to go down the drain, but there are still several very competitive games each day. There is a lot of faction imbalance.Around January 20 is when the bracket really goes down the drain. A lot of people, especially the highly skilled players have lost interest and are no longer queueing. It is hard to find a competitive game. We are back to scheduling queue nights on twinkinfo.com, and those games just aren't the same as the extremely competitive games of the latter half of December and early January.From February until now, games are scarce and we are back to having to schedule games. Here have been some responses to threads trying to generate activity:

Although I am not attempting to say this isn't true, it's understood to be relatively accurate however I don't understand the relevance in me saying in a summarized manner that: People should aim for activity over competitiveness as activity will create new competitive atmospheres. The entire purpose of my thread was to be looking forward and to move on from the way things have been. I'm not sure why others are having a hard time seeing that it doesn't matter how we got here, but in this particular thread it's about moving forward if we choose to.

It is clear that many people have lost interest in the bracket, resulting in low activity. Because the bracket has low activity, new players are not attracted to it.Just like you can't force a horse to drink water, you can't force the highly skilled players of the bracket to gain interest in this bracket and start queueing.

As of right now, Superstylin, Telle, myself, and many other members do not find it hard to queue for fun pugs and that is what we strive for. I do not care as much about the people who don't find 19's to be interesting right now and I don't care for their quotes. We have the numbers to make games pop on our own and if they chose to move on, that's their choice and I'm not begging for them to come back. The 19 community population on TI is much occupied by people who have moved on and not as much as the people who show up for games.

Activity and competition will coexist when the 'elitist / highly skilled players' gain interest in the bracket again.

This I find to be incorrect in my opinion. Activity results in competition and whether or not these "elitist / highly skilled players" rejoin the community is irrelevant. In fact, I've played many games in my day where there had not been many "skilled" twinks and the games have not been any less competitive than games full of "greats" as others would refer to them as.

I'd also like to point out that your moderating habits are not exactly helping the bracket. People are drawn to arguments. Haven't you noticed that the activity in this sub-forum skyrockets when there is a heated argument? When I come across a thread from a year or to ago, I'm blown away with what people were able to say back then. I feel that far too many posts/threads are deleted, and way too many threads are locked. Take this thread for example:lets get a popSomeone makes a thread to generate activity and it soon gets locked by you. I don't understand why. Yes, there may already be a queue thread, but with the state of the bracket in mind, something like this should not be locked. All locking threads does is kill forum activity and I believe forum activity contributes to the bracket's activity. This thread wasn't malicious and this isn't like the Blizzard forums where there are threads being made every minute.If you ask me, deleting posts/threads should be reserved for real life personal attacks and extremely offensive language.

Have you ever tried to organize a small community to queue on their toons in 3 separate and somewhat active threads at the same time?

I have not either but I'm assuming it's hell. Especially for someone who doesn't know which of the 3 times they should queue at. The thread was locked because we had 3 threads telling people when to queue up on their toons for scheduled games. - Common Sense

After reading through your recent posts, I'm really questioning your motives and am starting to consider whether you are trolling this community or not.

Simple: What little players we have left are enough to have consistent pops on a weekly basis at this point. We can have an inclusive experience playing pugs for the fun of it and for everyone to enjoy as long as people don't go rolling into games looking to steamroll.

I could care less about trolling and I don't need a separate account which allows me to do so whilst hiding behind anonymity.

 

[Superstylin]

You've made it blatantly obvious to everyone in the 19 twinking community that you are Mocha.

You got me. Uh oh.

 

[Solipsist]

You have me on real ID? I spend most of the time on my priest which isn't named Mocha.

I have lots of people on my list. Are you hiding under a name? Speak up and tell us then.

 

[Mocha]

I have lots of people on my list. Are you hiding under a name? Speak up and tell us then.

Not hiding...

Same name I've gone by on my priest since he was level 10 in TBC >.>

 

[Solipsist]

Not hiding...

Same name I've gone by on my priest since he was level 10 in TBC >.>

Which is?

 

[Dorigon]

Some good long posts in here

Should spark a whole lot of activity