About to roll a 64. What class?

[Kithkaid]

Almost 100% of the animosity in this bracket is due to the power disparities between lvl 60 raid gear and 58-64 Outland gear combined with the fact that the BiS 60 raid gear is no longer obtainable. So you have a minority of people with Naxx gear who are strongly opposed to the acceptance of 64s because they're - understandably - unwilling to level their Naxx outfitted toons to 64. In addition, because of the gear disparity the people who choose to stay at 60 have to put in lot more effort to get their BiS pieces than 64s, since their BiS pieces mostly come from raids while 64 BiS pieces come from Outlands quests or dungeons.



Not that they ever will, but if Blizzard restored all of the 60 content that was removed and properly rebalanced the 60 raiding & early Outlands gear the animosity between 60s and 64s would disappear, guaranteed.

 

[Kirise]

Almost 100% of the animosity in this bracket is due to the power disparities between lvl 60 raid gear and 58-64 Outland gear combined with the fact that the BiS 60 raid gear is no longer obtainable. So you have a minority of people with Naxx gear who are strongly opposed to the acceptance of 64s because they're - understandably - unwilling to level their Naxx outfitted toons to 64. In addition, because of the gear disparity the people who choose to stay at 60 have to put in lot more effort to get their BiS pieces than 64s, since their BiS pieces mostly come from raids while 64 BiS pieces come from Outlands quests or dungeons.



Not that they ever will, but if Blizzard restored all of the 60 content that was removed and properly rebalanced the 60 raiding & early Outlands gear the animosity between 60s and 64s would disappear, guaranteed.

Restoring the ability to get T3 gear would go a long way to helping close the gear gap between different levels in the bracket. But that's not the main problem. Putting level restrictions on engineering items so that grandfathered 60s can't wear Wrath gear or use Big Daddies and Bolt guns would also help the bracket, but that also is not the main problem.



Getting people to play as an objective-based team is the problem.



The first time I ever saw MSRagePaint on the battlefield, he was screaming at our team to stop farming mid, protect the flag carrier, stop farming mid, get our flag back, and quit farming mid. He was really giving our team some lip, and I wanted to step in and say something, except he was right.



People want to blame the bracket's problems on 64s, but the truth is, the proportion of good-to-bad players at any level in the bracket is the same. It's just easier to blame 64s because for now, there are less of them.



To address two of MSRagePaint's claims directly, the healing difference between 60 and 64 for resto shamans is anything but minimal -- 37% in base healing alone, without including a single gem. Moreover, to say that you wouldn't need 64 healers if 64s weren't plaguing the bracket holds about as much water as me saying you wouldn't need 64 healers if you didn't have grandfathered 60s with engineering and Naxx gear.



I think MSRagePaint's other argument is much more important. Every bracket has standards they follow, and if the 60-64 bracket came together and ignored higher level characters, the bracket would find the same success with bans as lower level brackets do. Which is to say, very good, with only occasional issues. I would support such a ban, and never field my 64 again if the bracket consisted of MSRagepaint-caliber players. But the 60-64 bracket can't even come together to help a flag carrier. Nobody agrees on anything, other than to propagate old prejudices, and even that doesn't find much agreement. I walk into a battleground, and get lip during the warmup period for being a 64. Then my heals start to speak for themselves, and complaints turn into thanks. And here's the kicker -- I got thanks not for being a 64, but for actually backing up my teammates and boosting them to glory.



Yes, I could do that at 60. Or 63. Anyone could. But they don't. And they need to. At any level.



If this bracket can get over its prejudices, you will have some great games to look forward to. But the hatred of 64s will attract those who feed off of your hate, and this bracket is not prepared to deal with them. Which, in the long run, may not be a bad thing.

 

[glancealot]

Restoring the ability to get T3 gear would go a long way to helping close the gear gap between different levels in the bracket. But that's not the main problem. Putting level restrictions on engineering items so that grandfathered 60s can't wear Wrath gear or use Big Daddies and Bolt guns would also help the bracket, but that also is not the main problem.



Getting people to play as an objective-based team is the problem.



The first time I ever saw MSRagePaint on the battlefield, he was screaming at our team to stop farming mid, protect the flag carrier, stop farming mid, get our flag back, and quit farming mid. He was really giving our team some lip, and I wanted to step in and say something, except he was right.



People want to blame the bracket's problems on 64s, but the truth is, the proportion of good-to-bad players at any level in the bracket is the same. It's just easier to blame 64s because for now, there are less of them.



To address two of MSRagePaint's claims directly, the healing difference between 60 and 64 for resto shamans is anything but minimal -- 37% in base healing alone, without including a single gem. Moreover, to say that you wouldn't need 64 healers if 64s weren't plaguing the bracket holds about as much water as me saying you wouldn't need 64 healers if you didn't have grandfathered 60s with engineering and Naxx gear.



I think MSRagePaint's other argument is much more important. Every bracket has standards they follow, and if the 60-64 bracket came together and ignored higher level characters, the bracket would find the same success with bans as lower level brackets do. Which is to say, very good, with only occasional issues. I would support such a ban, and never field my 64 again if the bracket consisted of MSRagepaint-caliber players. But the 60-64 bracket can't even come together to help a flag carrier. Nobody agrees on anything, other than to propagate old prejudices, and even that doesn't find much agreement. I walk into a battleground, and get lip during the warmup period for being a 64. Then my heals start to speak for themselves, and complaints turn into thanks. And here's the kicker -- I got thanks not for being a 64, but for actually backing up my teammates and boosting them to glory.



Yes, I could do that at 60. Or 63. Anyone could. But they don't. And they need to. At any level.



If this bracket can get over its prejudices, you will have some great games to look forward to. But the hatred of 64s will attract those who feed off of your hate, and this bracket is not prepared to deal with them. Which, in the long run, may not be a bad thing.

everytime i look at your essays on these forums and the wow forums, i wonder if you know that the average age of people you play with(these twinks!) is probably around 14~16.

 

[Kithkaid]

Restoring the ability to get T3 gear would go a long way to helping close the gear gap between different levels in the bracket. But that's not the main problem. Putting level restrictions on engineering items so that grandfathered 60s can't wear Wrath gear or use Big Daddies and Bolt guns would also help the bracket, but that also is not the main problem.



Getting people to play as an objective-based team is the problem.



The first time I ever saw MSRagePaint on the battlefield, he was screaming at our team to stop farming mid, protect the flag carrier, stop farming mid, get our flag back, and quit farming mid. He was really giving our team some lip, and I wanted to step in and say something, except he was right.



People want to blame the bracket's problems on 64s, but the truth is, the proportion of good-to-bad players at any level in the bracket is the same. It's just easier to blame 64s because for now, there are less of them.



To address two of MSRagePaint's claims directly, the healing difference between 60 and 64 for resto shamans is anything but minimal -- 37% in base healing alone, without including a single gem. Moreover, to say that you wouldn't need 64 healers if 64s weren't plaguing the bracket holds about as much water as me saying you wouldn't need 64 healers if you didn't have grandfathered 60s with engineering and Naxx gear.



I think MSRagePaint's other argument is much more important. Every bracket has standards they follow, and if the 60-64 bracket came together and ignored higher level characters, the bracket would find the same success with bans as lower level brackets do. Which is to say, very good, with only occasional issues. I would support such a ban, and never field my 64 again if the bracket consisted of MSRagepaint-caliber players. But the 60-64 bracket can't even come together to help a flag carrier. Nobody agrees on anything, other than to propagate old prejudices, and even that doesn't find much agreement. I walk into a battleground, and get lip during the warmup period for being a 64. Then my heals start to speak for themselves, and complaints turn into thanks. And here's the kicker -- I got thanks not for being a 64, but for actually backing up my teammates and boosting them to glory.



Yes, I could do that at 60. Or 63. Anyone could. But they don't. And they need to. At any level.



If this bracket can get over its prejudices, you will have some great games to look forward to. But the hatred of 64s will attract those who feed off of your hate, and this bracket is not prepared to deal with them. Which, in the long run, may not be a bad thing.

I disagree. What you're describing is just a general issue with all battlegrounds; idiots farming mid or fighting on the roads isn't a problem unique to this bracket.



The problem unique to this bracket and why there's so much hate for 64s is because 64s are noticably more powerful than 60s, but level 60 holds significance as the highest level in vanilla, so lots of people don't want to level to 64.



You don't have this in brackets like 15-19 or 25-29 because levels 15 & 25 don't have any significance so no one bothers locking at toon at those levels.



You don't have this in the 70-74 bracket because the gear available to 71-74 toons isn't significantly more powerful than the 70 raiding & PvP gear, so there's little incentive to level to 74, and those who do are still mostly on equal footing with people who stay at level 70.



That's why the solution to this is to restore removed 60 content and rebalance the gear so that levels 61-64 don't offer such a big gear advantage. Do that and not only will 60s & 64s be on more equal footing, but fewer people will even bother with leveling to 64 because it won't confer such an advantage as it does now.

 

[Mileylol]

I log, get a pop, kill everything I see. bring me 69s. IDGAF

 

[Horde]

If you are going to play 64 it doesn't matter what class you play. You have an advantage straight up.

 

[Kirise]

I disagree. What you're describing is just a general issue with all battlegrounds; idiots farming mid or fighting on the roads isn't a problem unique to this bracket.

Our experience doesn't match up, then. To be sure, every bracket suffers from this to some degree, but the 60-64 bracket far outsuffers the 29, 39, and 49 brackets, and somewhat surpasses the 70-74 bracket as well. I don't play in 19s, so I'll defer to your experience there.

The problem unique to this bracket and why there's so much hate for 64s is because 64s are noticably more powerful than 60s, but level 60 holds significance as the highest level in vanilla, so lots of people don't want to level to 64.

I'll put it this way: the range of gear that 60s use in this bracket is greater than the difference between the typical 60 and typical 64.

You don't have this in brackets like 15-19 or 25-29 because levels 15 & 25 don't have any significance so no one bothers locking at toon at those levels.



You don't have this in the 70-74 bracket because the gear available to 71-74 toons isn't significantly more powerful than the 70 raiding & PvP gear, so there's little incentive to level to 74, and those who do are still mostly on equal footing with people who stay at level 70.



That's why the solution to this is to restore removed 60 content and rebalance the gear so that levels 61-64 don't offer such a big gear advantage. Do that and not only will 60s & 64s be on more equal footing, but fewer people will even bother with leveling to 64 because it won't confer such an advantage as it does now.

I think we're talking about two different things. I agree wholeheartedly that technically what you say is accurate -- returning T3 gear will help close the gear gap. And I think your analogy with the 70-74 bracket is a good one. I don't take issue with that.



My concern is that while it's true that returning T3 gear will balance gear options between levels, the real source of angst in the bracket doesn't come from the gear disparities at this time. Players say it does, but it doesn't, and we see that all the time when a well-geared, skilled 60 rules the battleground.



In other words, I think you're absolutely right that the 60-64 bracket will need a serious fix to address gear disparities. But before that happens, the bracket as a whole needs to grow its general skill level. For now, gear disparity isn't the main factor hurting games.

 

[Kirise]

everytime i look at your essays on these forums and the wow forums, i wonder if you know that the average age of people you play with(these twinks!) is probably around 14~16.

In my experience, the average age is closer to 25. Twink ages tend to cluster in the 20-24 and 32-35 ranges, with some variance by bracket (e.g. 49s skew older, 70s skew younger). Moreover, other than falling prey to trolling more often, the 14-16 range players typically hold their own.



Actually, that might make for an interesting Twinkinfo survey. I'd love to compare year of birth with what XP-off brackets players participate.

 

[blueisbetterthanyou]

would a res stacked 64 resto druid be any good ?

 

[Kithkaid]

Our experience doesn't match up, then. To be sure, every bracket suffers from this to some degree, but the 60-64 bracket far outsuffers the 29, 39, and 49 brackets, and somewhat surpasses the 70-74 bracket as well. I don't play in 19s, so I'll defer to your experience there.



In other words, I think you're absolutely right that the 60-64 bracket will need a serious fix to address gear disparities. But before that happens, the bracket as a whole needs to grow its general skill level. For now, gear disparity isn't the main factor hurting games.

If this is the case, then the question that needs to be asked is why is this bracket different? Why is the quality of play lower than in other twink brackets? Is it because the bracket's been dead for so long that people are rusty?

 

[Kipale]

would a res stacked 64 resto druid be any good ?

Atleast so much better than 60 resto, at 64 ya get Lifebloom.

 

[raivo]

The reason 60-ties won't accept any other level on their bracket is pretty obvious - they are not really twinks. They don't play on other brackets (usually), some of them despise usage of TBC gear. It's not about gaining advantage, but about playing on vanlilla max level. Lots of those people even do 60-only raids.



Rolling a 64 there is like old days of exp-off battlegrounds - make a twink and go gank lowbies rambo style. You'll get hate not only from enemy team, but even from your own.



Regarding resil, it's not really viable @60 (because there's not much gear with sockets), but pretty good @64. I reckon you can go up to 40% dmg reduction without sacrificing much.

 

[Dye]

Pretty much the deal is this. Roll a 60, your welcomed to the bracket. Roll a 64, your the biggest douche on the face of the earth and will be ganked, camped, etc. till you level out or just stop playing from the sheer hatred being aimed at you from your fellow players.

 

[Kipale]

Pretty much the deal is this. Roll a 60, your welcomed to the bracket. Roll a 64, your the biggest douche on the face of the earth and will be ganked, camped, etc. till you level out or just stop playing from the sheer hatred being aimed at you from your fellow players.

^ didn't happend to me.

 

[Kirise]

^ didn't happend to me.

Me neither. The anti-64 hate is stronger on the forums than it is on the battlefield.

If this is the case, then the question that needs to be asked is why is this bracket different? Why is the quality of play lower than in other twink brackets? Is it because the bracket's been dead for so long that people are rusty?

I think that's exactly the question, and I'm stumped. There are some truly good players in the 60-64 bracket, so it's not like the whole bracket is bad. ...But I think you're on to something with the queue issues that killed the bracket for so long.



If I had to guess, I think two things came together to cause this problem in the 60-64 bracket. Both the 60 and 70 brackets had to adjust when capped accounts got moved to XP-off battlegrounds. It's a serious, serious shift going from XP-on to XP-off. In XP-on, you have to assume that you're going to carry the team if you have a chance to win. In XP-off, you have to play like a team. The 60 bracket simply hasn't had that chance to begin that adjustment until last month. Combine this with what you were saying before about the need to bring back T3 gear to balance the levels in the bracket, and you get a situation where new 64s look like they're wrecking the place based on gear alone.



There used to be a lot more hatred toward 74s, but that dissipated after a few months as players got a feel for the pros and cons of leveling beyond 70. 60s never got that chance, because of bugged queues, and because of the unavailability of Naxx gear.



It's hard to show an experienced twinker that the reason they're losing more games than before stems from a change in the way the bracket works. They assume the problem is with new players, because the problem didn't arrive until the new players did. You can tell an experienced 60 twinker that they need to work more as a team, but working more as a team back when they played with XP-on players got them killed by bad teammates.



It's a hard catch-22 to overcome. To grow as a bracket, 60-64 players have to have more faith in their teammates that they will start working as a team. But it's hard to have that faith until they start working as a team.

 

[Kipale]

Yes indeed, people qq alot about 64s here but in BG i haven't heard anything bad expect enemy 64 rogue who was one shotting our cloth users

 

[raivo]

Naxx gear wouldn't fix balance anyway, since the problem lies in wrath gems.



60-ties simply stop queueing if there are a lot of 64 running battlegrounds, if you haven't noticed. It's sad, since they are the only reason 64 queue..

 

[Falkor]

why are you saying 60-ties

thats the same as saying sixty-ties...do you have 60 ties? must have a large closet



and if 60s dont que just to spite 64s, congrats cuz you just killed your own bracket

 

[Kirise]

Naxx gear wouldn't fix balance anyway, since the problem lies in wrath gems.

For resto shamans, adding T3 back into the game closes the gap between 60 and 64 gear to about 10 sockets' worth of stats, in terms of wrath gems. However, since 64s are better off stacking sockets, they don't wear all mail, so they don't get the 5% int bonus (which only adds half a socket), and they don't lose 17% of their secondary stats (a much bigger deal). Add the mana savings from the first set bonuses, and you're now within 5-6 wrath sockets of a 64 gearset -- a very close margin. Personally, I'd prefer the 64 gearset for my playstyle, but I know if I saw a shammy in T3, I would definitely run out of mana before they would (the T3 set has really high spirit).

 

[Ettan]

Heh never thought about that Il def start with ignoring friendly 64s. We have actually started using war games on my server to avoid the bs, worked fairly well that hard to get the ppl but when you got them theres no wait time. For really 60-60 70-70 80-80 they are their own brackets.