A Message from the Majority of the Hardcore 19ers

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I am quite sure it is less than half. But those people are also the ones sitting on the alliance graveyard on a daily basis, supplying Tough Love with free HKs. Those people do not make for competitive games, they are cannon fodder in subpar PuGs.

It takes more than that to get good games. The players carrying those PuGs are the ones who do know about Twinkinfo, and alliance lacks those veteran players. What you "built" on Draenor is nothing but a playground for Tough Love.

EU 19s is not the flourishing bracket you make it out to be, it is a bracket where alliance wins three to four games per week, where most alliance players spend more time on their graveyard than anywhere else in the gulch.

It is true that Horde has more quality players than the Alliance. It is also true that TL leverages the ground on the Horde side. But if you could drop your biased scope for a while, you could see that the only times when you have a slight of challenge or when you can enjoy the BG, is when we queue. And by "we" I don't mean the casual players from AAO who help with activity, but the (few) Alliance players (regardless of their guilds) who can levarage the fields, or atleast make them enjoyable for both sides.

I think that having a superior Horde is actually something positive for the Alliance players on EU. If I didn't find a challenge everyday on the Gulch, I would be playing the easy way (20-24s).
 
Some of your points are valid, yet others are very subjective. When you talk about the players age, you never open the posibility that this community is composed by both old and new players, as you point out the growth of the community as a whole. You make the community look homogeneous, when in fact it's composed by micro-communities, who rarely (or entirely) even interact with eachother.

When I am talking about players age it is more of an average or where a majority of the "regular's" ages tend to be around. It would be extremely ignorant to say that the few players that make up the age minorities (those who fall outside the age norm) have a larger affect on the activity of a bracket when compared to the majorities. Now, I am not saying that these minorities are irrelevant, but it is quite easy to see that 7/10 people have more influence than 3/10 - I mean that's just simple math. The reason why it seems that I state the bracket as being homogenous is because relative to the population it is more homogenous than evenly spread.

If you want to argue specific and point out minor details go right ahead, it would just be a shame if you did though, as my message would have flown right over your head : \

You also make it look like (on your game quality part), that an oldschooler or regular automatically brings quality games. It's true that a regular might bring some quality games duo to his dedication and experience, but saying an oldschooler can levarage the fields of battle is subjective at best.

Again I am speaking relatively. On average an "oldschool" or heavily experienced player usually brings with him/her a certain ability to carry or aid more towards a victory in comparison to a newer, less experienced player. Obviously there are players who have vast amounts of experience but do not carry even what a below average player is able to. If we look at it statistically there is a positive correlation between experience and player skill, although (again), it is not an 100% correlation (this should be obvious).

Also, you call out about the boring meta, it's subjective. It's boring to you. I'm probably the oldest player in this thread, and I find this new meta amusing. It's something new, and I'm pretty sure that many people share the same opinion, or there would be no premades going or interest in organized wargames.

It's boring to anyone who played through the early stages of Cata through to the middle of MoP, and unfortunately for our bracket, this was a substantial proportion of out brackets populous. I personally have played in every single one of the competitive low level brackets (19,29,39,49[when the xxmd 70s came and played] and 70s) and have experienced most of the metas along with being there when such metas shifted. You may find the current meta interesting because you see it as new due to your inactivity since WotLK and have not played through it to see its' limitations. I have a differing viewpoint because I have the foresight as to where - theoretically and realistically - the meta can go.

Anyone currently find the meta interesting it just because of the lack of experience and and in depth analytical thought process. The reason that you get Premade/wargames currently is not due to the fact that most players enjoy the current meta. The people who still field competitive premades are the ones who enjoy competition and are willing to put up with and play with the current meta - not because they enjoy that playstyle - but because they love to shit on people who have big mouths and talk a lot of trash when they clearly cannot back it up (Btw, I'm not talking about you or your guild explicitly, there are quite a few who walked that same walk and ended up in the same place as yours in the US).

And last but not least, the enchant part. It brought a whole new possibility of playstyles to the classes, that's why there are yet no BiS sets. There are just so many things you can do with this patch, that it will still take some time to figure. But I understand your point here, as you haven't had the chance to decently experience 5.4.

You see it as possibilities, I see it as hindrances. The bracket was already bursty enough during the three previous patches, I see anything that increases that burst as something that takes away from skillful play (although it obviously adds another element) and incentivizes mongoloiding and zerging strats which I, and many others, see as less thoughtful and/or intelligent gameplay.
 
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When I am talking about players age it is more of an average or where a majority of the "regular's" ages tend to be around. It would be extremely ignorant to say that the few players that make up the age minorities (those who fall outside the age norm) have a larger affect on the activity of a bracket when compared to the majorities. Now, I am not saying that these minorities are irrelevant, but it is quite easy to see that 7/10 people have more influence than 3/10 - I mean that's just simple math. The reason why it seems that I state the bracket as being homogenous is because relative to the population it is more homogenous than evenly spread.

If you want to argue specific and point out minor details go right ahead, it would just be a shame if you did though, as my message would have flown right over your head : \



Again I am speaking relatively. On average an "oldschool" or heavily experienced player usually brings with him/her a certain ability to carry or aid more towards a victory in comparison to a newer, less experienced player. Obviously there are players who have vast amounts of experience but do not carry even what a below average player is able to. If we look at it statistically there is a positive corilation between experience and player skill, although (again), it is not an 100% corilation (this should be obvious).



It's boring to anyone who played through the early stages of Cata through to the middle of MoP, and unfortunately for our bracket, this was a substantial proportion of out brackets populous. I personally have played in every single one of the competitive low level brackets (19,29,39,49[when the xxmd 70s came and played] and 70s) and have experienced most of the metas along with being there when such metas shifted. You may find the current meta interesting because you see it as new due to your inactivity since WotLK and have not played through it to see its' limitations. I have a differing viewpoint because I have the foresight as to where - theoretically and realistically - the meta can go.

Anyone currently find the meta interesting it just because of the lack of experience and and in depth analytical thought process. The reason that you get Premade/wargames currently is not due to the fact that most players enjoy the current meta. The people who still field competitive premades are the ones who enjoy competition and are willing to put up with and play with the current meta - not because they enjoy that playstyle - but because they love to shit on people who have big mouths and talk a lot of trash when they clearly cannot back it up (Btw, I'm not talking about you or your guild explicitly, there are quite a few who walked that same walk and ended up in the same place as yours in the US).



You see it as possibilities, I see it as hindrances. The bracket was already bursty enough during the three previous patches, I see anything that increases that burst as something that takes away from skillful play (although it obviously adds another element) and incentivizes mongoloiding and zerging strats which I, and many others, see as less thoughtful and/or intelligent gameplay.

Don't really take my post as hostile, it isn't my intention here. I know how important this thread is, and I couldn't agree more on the making of it. I just thought that your points lacked some explanation, because they seemed subjective to me. But then again, you pointed out something true throughout your post: I cannot give an accurate insight because I have not experienced Cata/Early MoP.
 
Those putting blame on the moderators of an external site for part of the decline of 19's US is laughable. Even back in the beginning of the brackets many of those queing didn't know about the blizzard forums let alone when other twink type websites showed up. You might as well have said it is because people are playing xbox or playstation. They clearly don't understand why people qued up since the beginning of the brackets. It is the game in its current state and other reasons stated by Derv that people have moved on or are in hiatus.

20-24's is a bracket that has multiple facets that existed when brackets first came out and thus the 24-7 activity. Back in the early days of twinking you could que up anytime of day or night and get into games. Even with the game in its current form and moderation of their threads here, the bracket is FLOURISHING. It may not have the draw to play there for all, but activity tells alot.

Even with thread moderation keeping name calling etc down, you can still use other avenues to get your drama fix to instigate fights handled on the battlefield. Personal messages, public vent channels, and in game whispers, just to name a few options.

The game changes have made most soft compared to the old school players. Ask a vanilla or tbc twink what it was like and it is SO much easier to make a character today, thus so much easier to throw a character away and make a new one. The time and effort put into making a character back then in itself created a glue for someone to stick around. Now the disposable nature of a character doesn't have the same staying power as before.
 
Don't really take my post as hostile, it isn't my intention here. I know how important this thread is, and I couldn't agree more on the making of it. I just thought that your points lacked some explanation, because they seemed subjective to me. But then again, you pointed out something true throughout your post: I cannot give an accurate insight because I have not experienced Cata/Early MoP.

Mine wasn't meant as hostile either, I wasn't being facetious. I would be truly sorrowful if someone focused on the small details instead of the underlying message.
 
The game changes have made most soft compared to the old school players. Ask a vanilla or tbc twink what it was like and it is SO much easier to make a character today, thus so much easier to throw a character away and make a new one. The time and effort put into making a character back then in itself created a glue for someone to stick around. Now the disposable nature of a character doesn't have the same staying power as before.

I didn't even think about this. The banality of twinking nowadays.
 
Even back in the beginning of the brackets many of those queing didn't know about the blizzard forums let alone when other twink type websites showed up.

This would be true if you were comparing it to the unlocked-EXP 15-19 bracket. But this is the locked-EXP 14-19 bracket, a very, very limited community. Altho I do agree and still stick to my opinion that you don't need a forum to get activity going. Now quality, in the other hand, is debatable.
 
It is true that Horde has more quality players than the Alliance. It is also true that TL leverages the ground on the Horde side. But if you could drop your biased scope for a while, you could see that the only times when you have a slight of challenge or when you can enjoy the BG, is when we queue. And by "we" I don't mean the casual players from AAO who help with activity, but the (few) Alliance players (regardless of their guilds) who can levarage the fields, or atleast make them enjoyable for both sides.

I think that having a superior Horde is actually something positive for the Alliance players on EU. If I didn't find a challenge everyday on the Gulch, I would be playing the easy way (20-24s).
I don't know what gave you the impression that I am biased but the points I am making here are based on objective observation and you agree with most of them, at least from what I can tell.

As I mentioned before, and as you just repeated, Alliance lacks the numbers of active quality and / or veteran players which leads to subpar and onesided PuGs. Having several of those remaining Alliance veterans in the same game sure makes for less boring games but even those games usually end in favor of the Horde unless they have, say, seven rogues on the team. The games where both factions get decently balanced teams are very rare, they do not occur more often than once or twice per week. And by decently balanced I do not mean the games filled with eight players on each side who do not have the slightest clue what they are doing, thus making it "balanced".

That proves that the bracket needs its core players, the players who are active on the forums, the players who do take part in the banter and and the trashtalk. Even the people who claim not to care about the drama share the hate against Tough Love and are frequently seen arguing against the guild. This antipathy would be a reason for them to continue playing if they had an actual chance to bring them down, and that is the problem: This chance does not exist in the current state of the bracket.

This bracket needs someone to give it the importunity to stand up to Tough Love. You tried to do that and it went not so well. That had to be expected as it was your first try and you had just returned to the bracket, nothing wrong with that. But you then went ahead and jeopardized any second or third attempts by acting very immature on the forums and in private conversations with Tough Love which now again limits this bracket's activity to PuGs where the Alliance gets obliterated on a daily basis. The way you act, or acted, on these forums may be your way to polarize the community which isn't necessarily a bad thing, however I do not think it is worth getting rid of the small competitive aspect this bracket had left.

Also, having a superior Horde may be interesting for you but I do not think the few new players that join the bracket, and even a good part of the veterans, agree.
 
Good thread and I agree with it.

Any EU willing to help a brother out with a fund heh? I'll promise to log on for good games ect and take my toon seriously.

pm me or w/e

with love,

Idiote

Also, to keep this thread bumpin I'm gonna link some Gillie. Hey, he isn't for everybody but try something new and you might just like it.

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQYz6d-Bbpg

peace and chicken grease
 
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Let me go ahead and post my 2 cents as I've been gone for the past 2 months.

It has been stated 1001 times by Shane and the other members of the Twink Info Staff to l e a v e the moderator discussion out of the forums. Problem? Message the Admins or other Moderators. End of discussion. You don't create @mod threads and complain about him/her. That's just purely immature. I know you all love to hate me, that's fine. Sure I'm strict with the CoC, I wrote it.

On my first day back an EU member started raging on the forums about me being asked to moderate the forums and enforce the CoC. After Shane had warned him to leave the Moderator discussion off the forums, he found himself with a 2 week ban at Shane's hand which he circumvented earning him an indefinite break from the site. Meanwhile another US user was doing the exact same thing as this EU member, but stopped once he was was warned

Let me go ahead and say any moderation I did in September was backed by the CoC. Simply put, don't swear at other members, don't post IRL pictures of other members, don't spam the forums to attempt to aggravate the TI staff.

The last few games to occur in the bracket were played by many people whom I have never heard of and who weren't even on these forums. I believe only about 6/10 players per side were commonly known 19 twink names.

If you can find an example where a discussion was ended by the Staff for reason being: Disagreeing with other members (As Saxxon has claimed), please notify me and any actions taken against said post, thread or account will be reversed. If there is any impact on the ingame community as a result of Twink Info (besides organization) it would be the lack of respect.

A few things I'd like to say:
  • The issue is when there is no respect for absolutely anyone on these forums. I have a job to do: Enforce the CoC. I haven't done it in two months. Before banning any member they must first accumulate 3 active infractions for a typical ban. Infractions happen when someone has a hard time posting on these forums while respecting others.

  • I warmly welcome all discussion 100% of the time. No discussion has been ended on this site because of the argument, it was ended at the result of there being breaches of the CoC most commonly being related to disrespecting other people.


  • The largest impact on the community population happened when other members were bragging about quitting 19s to other members. Keep in mind we didn't have pops half way through August.


  • There were only a handful 19 members who tried to keep the community going after things really died down. These are the people who actually played in the last few games 19s had, played and organized wargames and world pvp events. Most of the people posting in this threads were not any of these members who tried to help the bracket endure a patch that is very, very game changing. These people typically never once stood by the idea that causing drama on TI was a necessity to the existence of the bracket.
  • I have a thread of 52 users along with evidence for each and everyone of them which supports how they earned themselves a ban.

  • I am 100% conscious of the fact that many accounts that had been banned were at my hand. However, I believe the only US accounts that I have removed (that weren't alt troll accounts) have been Kancer, Beau, Uraflamer and maybe an oddball here or there.


This is the blanket concept for the CoC. If you can post whilst following this you will never have a warning, infraction or a ban:
Discuss whatever you would like to on these forums as long as you are not talking about problems with the TI staff (PM the Admins or Moderators themselves), disrespecting others or being extremely off topic (@threads are spam as they can be dealt with via PM). There simply is no reason nor excuse for a disrespectful post.


I understand that Saxxon and others like to put me to blame for the "death" of the 19 community. I apologize that you feel that way, but I feel as though the twink info community was nearly obsolete after a member would sift through literally pages of disrespectful postings about other people, only to find a lack of information.

If there isn't any information to be shared, discussion to be had or organization of any event is there really a necessity to post a thread in this section? I honestly don't feel as though the fact that members want more drama is not reason enough to do so... If you want drama: skype group calls can handle many people. Go at it there.

Now that you are done reading my post, I request that you read it top to bottom once or twice more before merely responding to just the last paragraph. I have said many things in this post that I feel are important and I would hope they would not go undermined the second a rebuttal enters the readers mind.


Thank you
 
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Let me go ahead and post my 2 cents as I've been gone for the past 2 months.

It has been stated 1001 times by Shane and the other members of the Twink Info Staff to l e a v e the moderator discussion out of the forums. Problem? Message the Admins or other Moderators. End of discussion. You don't create @mod threads and complain about him/her. That's just purely immature. I know you all love to hate me, that's fine. Sure I'm strict with the CoC, I wrote it.
If you don’t want the community to discuss the moderation team let me give you a hint on what to do: Put it in the CoC. Doing so gives you an actual reason to lock the threads, other than the pathetic @thread excuse.

Contacting the staff is not a reliable option to express dissatisfaction as both admins and half of the moderations are inactive at best and have a history of ignoring private messages. I actually messaged a mod about this very issue only two or three days ago and it got ignored, as usually. Often forum threads are the only way to draw attention to certain matters.

On my first day back an EU member started raging on the forums about me being asked to moderate the forums and enforce the CoC. After Shane had warned him to leave the Moderator discussion off the forums, he found himself with a 2 week ban at Shane's hand which he circumvented earning him an indefinite break from the site. Meanwhile another US user was doing the exact same thing as this EU member, but stopped once he was was warned
I do remember that incident. I remember as well that the thread was located in the Tavern section and got locked because it was not twinking related. In the section that says “Talk about anything here”. No part of the CoC prohibits discussion about the staff, can you really blame people for creating such threads?

Let me go ahead and say any moderation I did in September was backed by the CoC. Simply put, don't swear at other members, don't post IRL pictures of other members, don't spam the forums to attempt to aggravate the TI staff.
Of course your moderation was backed by the CoC, that is because it backs the deletion of every single post or thread if a moderator wishes to interpret it that way due to the part that says “Infraction Worthy Offenses: Unnecessary Threads”. Does that mean you should delete every thread you consider unnecessary? No, in that situation you should take a second to consider if the thread may be of interest for another part of the community that you are no part of.

The issue is when there is no respect for absolutely anyone on these forums. I have a job to do: Enforce the CoC. I haven't done it in two months. Before banning any member they must first accumulate 3 active infractions for a typical ban. Infractions happen when someone has a hard time posting on these forums while respecting others.
You do not need 3 infractions to get banned, several people have been banned in the past without ever receiving a single infraction, or even a warning.

I warmly welcome all discussion 100% of the time. No discussion has been ended on this site because of the argument, it was ended at the result of there being breaches of the CoC most commonly being related to disrespecting other people.
In situations like that do your job and edit the disrespectful posts, having one or two disrespectful sentences in the whole post is no reason to delete it entirely, or even lock the thread. Doing so is just laziness and lack of effort from the mods’ side.

There were on[y a handful 19 members who tried to keep the community going after things really died down. These are the people who actually played in the last few games 19s had, played and organized wargames and world pvp events. Most of the people posting in this threads were not any of these members who tried to help the bracket endure a patch that is very, very game changing. These people typically never once stood by the idea that causing drama on TI was a necessity to the existence of the bracket.
And this handful of 19 members you mentioned seemed to be a minority as they could not generate pops without the “elitists”.

I have a thread of 52 users along with evidence for each and everyone of them which supports how they earned themselves a ban.
I don’t see how this is relevant as you won’t share it anyways.

This is the blanket concept for the CoC. If you can post whilst following this you will never have a warning, infraction or a ban:
Discuss whatever you would like to on these forums as long as you are not talking about problems with the TI staff (PM the Admins or Moderators themselves), disrespecting others or being extremely off topic (@threads are spam as they can be dealt with via PM). There simply is no reason nor excuse for a disrespectful post.
The CoC is highly subjective. If a mod decides to hand out a ban or an infraction it allows them to do so. Note that I am not saying that this is how the majority of the bans happened.
About the PMs, please refer to my second paragraph.

If there isn't any information to be shared, discussion to be had or organization of any event is there really a necessity to post a thread in this section? I honestly don't feel as though the fact that members want more drama is not reason enough to do so... If you want drama: skype group calls can handle many people. Go at it there.

Thank you
There were discussions to be had in the majority of the threads that got locked, they were just either about topics the moderation team, or certain moderators, did not approve of, or got locked because a moderator did not put in the effort to moderate it (which is kind of ironic, isn't it?). Let the people have their drama as long as it doesn’t get out of hand. That’s the great part about forums: If you don’t want to be part of the drama, simply avoid the thread.

Also note that when I say “you” I usually mean the entire staff, not you as a person.
 
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Infractioned for a sig that was to big (I cba to resize ot gothrough thr hassle to crop it but yeah large sig is disrespectful and infraction worthy)

Banned because the obvious proxy I use (can't you mods tell if someone's using a proxy? If yes then use your brain)

Internet nazis


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[MENTION=6446]Mocha[/MENTION], can you post the thread of banned twinks lmao please I wana see flamers feats

If you can find an example where a discussion was ended by the Staff for reason being: Disagreeing with other members (As Saxxon has claimed), please notify me and any actions taken against said post, thread or account will be reversed. If there is any impact on the ingame community as a result of Twink Info (besides organization) it would be the lack of respect.

Nicozy
 
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Mocha, it's hard to blame you completely for the current inactivity of 19s, you did a few positive things with the attempted real id weekly games which I'm unsure if are still going.

however there is a possible link between the following
Coming down hard on core players in the bracket/ active warsong members on the forums during an unstable period (the rebuilding of twinks etc after 5.4 dropped), it was the worst time to kill peoples interest in twinking as patches are always difficult for twinks to bounce back. now there's no saying if you hadn't have come down that hard if 19s would have stayed alive, but I know a lot of people who view it as a huge reason, all of them fanatic 19 twinks who loved the competitve aspect of the game and not the casual side of 19 twinking that they felt you were pushing on the forums.

A lot of posts were deleted, infractions handed out and thus people couldn't be assed posting or dealing with 19s anymore, and most moved to 20-24, at least the competitive ones, the friendly's like myself attempted to make games happen after 5.4 but it was just to little to late after a loss of such core players to the f2p bracket.

That's just my take on the matter and I'm sure its full of many holes you can poke at, just stating what I'm seeing.
 
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disclaimer so you know this isn't a circlejerk: i can't stand the OP. i can't stand the people he is talking for.

OP is 100% right. Mocha, please don't keep linking the CoC. it's bent to serve the purpose of the mod using it at the time.
i have an infraction for letting a mod know someone was committing an infraction, is that in the CoC? there's also a thread here somewhere with a mod conspiring to ban a member, simply because he did't like him.... wonder who that mod was.

i personally will be boycotting TI till mods learn to be fair. i hope others will do the same.
 
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I dont understand all these mods that say "PM mods if u have a problem, or pm shane/silin".

Why would we do that when 90% of the time these pms go unanswered and ignored. Is that part of the CoC? For moderators to ignore members? Didnt think so.

Now i understand that not every pm can be answered, not every mod is active at certain times, but being blatantly ignored doesnt feel good for the user and creates friction between staff and members, as can be seen by the constant bashing of said mods.
 
This happens every time there is a batch of new mods. The newest batch has been especially zealous about locking and deleting, but I'm sure they will adjust over time. They will learn that their job is to stop interruptions to discussions, not the discussions themselves.
 
Let the site die already [MENTION=3992]Karmaz[/MENTION] request thread closed and cease to post good material that leads to discussions... yowza was spot on with his previous post in saxxons thread...

Side note ne1 wana go in with me on pwndepots domain? ;D
 
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