EU 70s Activity in 8.3

Discussion in 'Level 70-79' started by Healium, Mar 10, 2020.

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  1. Blackberryy

    Blackberryy Life is a choice, and death is a decision Administrator

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    My experience using the items. We did 5v5 1v1s for about a month during Korraks for hours each night and I got noticeable damage changes. In my small burst windows the maces 2-3 auto attacks in opener would add to More damage overall.
     
  2. OP
    Healium

    Healium Meow

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    Another question boys do u like Mythic + for 70s
     
  3. Dreams

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    But that doesn't make sense.

    In a 5 or 6 second window (between the eyes/kidney) the headcracker would do 1 autoattack for an average of 514 damage and the hand would do 2 autoattacks for an average of 768 damage.

    In a 15 second window (more realistic pvp burst window) the headcracker would do 4 autoattacks for 2056 damage on average and the hand would land 6 autoattacks doing 2304 on average.

    The only timeframe in which the headcracker would do more damage than the hand would be less than 4.8 seconds because that way they'd both do exactly one autoattack. It makes sense if you think about it: the hand has the higher damage per second - damage over time (12.3 vs 10). It doesn't matter that the headcracker has higher swing damage, because it swings a lot slower to make up for it, and furthermore, practically no abilities scale off weapon damage anymore. That's the biggest problem. A couple of expansions ago a slow weapon like that would've been sick.

    It sounds fun but what exactly do you mean by it? how does it work?
     
  4. Blackberryy

    Blackberryy Life is a choice, and death is a decision Administrator

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    outlaw kills most classes with full burst in a cheap shot
     
  5. Dreams

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    Best case scenario, you already have full roll the bones up and you then cheap shot someone. It's a 4 second stun because let's say your opponent doesn't have any stun reduction (what the hell is he doing). You obviously spend the first global casting the cheap shot, leaving you 3 globals to do damage before the cs expires.

    Here's what I assume is the maximum damage (please correct me if I'm wrong, I don't really play outlaw):
    Sinister strike (it procs and hits twice) ->
    Dispatch ->
    Mark for death ->
    between the eyes

    So in total you do:
    1 main hand - 514
    1 off hand - 188
    2 sinister strikes - 1108
    1 dispatch - 2000
    1 between the eyes - 2828
    1 hidden satyr - 886 (this is relevant because it also scales off AP, which you have less of with headcracker)
    7524 damage


    With hand:
    1 main hand - 384
    1 off hand - 192
    2 sinister strike - 1142
    1 dispatch - 2063
    1 between the eyes - 2909
    1 hidden satyr - 903
    7593 damage

    So even in a damage window so short that both builds only get one auto attack, the hand still makes up the damage from the 3 globals of abilities. If we narrow the burst window to 2 globals, the headcracker will do more damage than the hand though.
    --- Double Post Merged, Mar 16, 2020, Original Post Date: Mar 16, 2020 ---
    Also sidenote: we're getting pretty far into absurdity here, right? Even if the headcracker did do more damage in a cheap shot(it doesn't), you wouldn't gear your character for that. And even if you did you certainly wouldn't call it bis.
    --- Double Post Merged, Mar 16, 2020 ---
    Oh also I forgot you're playing with several haste proc items. If you factor in a few of those you'd probably get 2 autoattacks from the fist in that cheap shot.
     
  6. Kyee

    Kyee Member

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    Mythic + for 70s sounds fun but meta comps will ruin it like M+ at max level.
     
  7. Blackberryy

    Blackberryy Life is a choice, and death is a decision Administrator

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    unsure where all your math comes from, the disparage in baseline values is not as high as you are suggesting
     

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  8. Dreams

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    The damage values are the average hits from the sim which takes into account stuff like roll the bones, dancing steel procs, necklace proc, trinkets, higher crit chance etc. I took them directly from the sim results I linked earlier in this thread.
     
  9. Blackberryy

    Blackberryy Life is a choice, and death is a decision Administrator

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    i get that, but i can't imagine they are correct. Especially since my stats and baseline damage are different in game than in your sim
     
  10. Dreams

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    Yeah I know it's not always super intuitive to think about all the factors. The average cast of a dispatch (for example) is increased by quite a lot when you have +1% crit, for example. Something you don't necessarily think about.
     
  11. Blackberryy

    Blackberryy Life is a choice, and death is a decision Administrator

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    sure, but with 1.03% increase it is not that different. Especially since it is baked into the actual values already displayed in my screenshot
     
  12. Dreams

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    nono the mouseover tooltip doesn't take into account your chance to crit, just displays the base noncrit damage.
     
  13. Blackberryy

    Blackberryy Life is a choice, and death is a decision Administrator

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    Yes but the value of the crit damage is determined by base damage
     
  14. Dreams

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    Yeah of course. I'm just saying that the additional crit provided by the hand is another reason why the average ability damage difference is higher than you would think intuitively. It's not the only factor just one of the less intuitive ones.
     
  15. Blackberryy

    Blackberryy Life is a choice, and death is a decision Administrator

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    Sure, but my question is, how does 3 damage baseline turn into 17 damage per sinister strike with all procs and a max crit?
     
  16. Dreams

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    Basically when you're just opening your spellbook outside of combat and comparing base damage numbers you're ignoring a lot of factors.
    Various attack power procs amplify the difference. While the percentage difference stays the same (as both builds scale equally with AP, obviously) the actual damage number difference becomes more pronounced when we're dealing with higher numbers. If we had a theoretical build with a trillion AP, the damage difference would be very high, for example. And then there's the crit difference we already talked about which actually scales the average hand damage by a percentage.
    --- Double Post Merged, Mar 16, 2020, Original Post Date: Mar 16, 2020 ---
    @Blackberryy I did a quick ingame experiment to demonstrate what I'm saying:
    [​IMG]
    As you can see the difference is amplified by attack power procs
     
  17. Blackberryy

    Blackberryy Life is a choice, and death is a decision Administrator

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    Sure, and short of math I’m not willing to do I accept your points. I personally have never trusted simcraft at 70 and have found it to be void of extra points like combat potency on a slower weapon and the actual possibility of auto attacks to hit twice even with a slower weapon in a small window. Also just to touch on your outlaw rotation, your ideal rotation, on a target void of trinket and cool downs, assuming you’ve forced those out of them, is to open cheap>roll>sinister double proc> pistol shot proc > and between the eyes at the end of the cheap. In almost 90% of fights, they are dead by the between the eyes
    --- Double Post Merged, Mar 16, 2020, Original Post Date: Mar 16, 2020 ---
    most of the time if you try to use a combo generating ability to get 5 combo points for between the eyes, you will not have the energy to properly stack it. Especially in the unfortunate circumstance of you not having a perfect opener and having to double sin if you don’t get pistol shot proc etc or they arnt perfectly without cool downs.
     
  18. Dreams

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    Right, I just wanted to optimize for most damage possible in a single cheap shot for the comparison.

    I can understand your mistrust of simcraft somewhat because it's very poorly optimized for level 70. Fx has done tons of little tweaks to match reality, though. Such as correcting the base character stats and programming many of the level 70 trinkets manually.
    --- Double Post Merged, Mar 16, 2020, Original Post Date: Mar 16, 2020 ---
    I should also add that the guys who write simcraft for rogues are amazing compared to many of the other class authors and their profiles actually work very well for lower levels.
     
  19. Blackberryy

    Blackberryy Life is a choice, and death is a decision Administrator

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    Oh believe me, I know it’s a great program and website. I’ve used it a lot for other specs, I just play outlaw a ton (played) and I feel like at 70 there are so many small ways to optimize dps and the slower weapon allows for higher burst in openers. The numbers more than likely don’t lie, but auto attacks with the haste I have hit more than 1x per opener and the difference in weapon speed for my build is not large enough to add extra auto attacks for an opener with hand over the mace . Also I found during that dead zone where transitioning to a finishing move, a 900 crit auto is better than a 600 crit auto
     
  20. Dreams

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    You have less attack power, you have less crit, your abilities hit lower, your autoattack dps is lower. But the individual autoattack swings are higher, which only matters in burst windows where the hand and headcracker hit the same amount of times. So you realize that as soon as the hand hits a 2nd time, approximately 1.5 seconds into any given fight, the hand becomes better?
     

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