39s is plagued by premade domination mentality

[Andris]

Competitive games are what I yearn for in the 39 bracket. The most memorable games are ones that aren't just rollovers that end within minutes. 60 PVP is set up to have the full premade tactic and if you queue with a small group, you're gonna have a bad time. I'm sure a lot of people come to twink so they can avoid that, but it seems that 39s is getting closer and closer to the 60 bg mindset.

In the west, everyone knows that the main alliance hub is whitemane. I even have a 39 hunter there myself. The problem I have is that it seems that in all hours of the day, there is sizable premade going that plagues the 39 battleground bracket. It can be 9am or 2am and it's going.

Horde have a pretty bad queue timer compared to alliance, we all know that. The last thing someone wants to go against is a dominating premade vs their pug. I personally wouldn't want to wait 30 minutes for a queue only to be graveyard camped due to being outnumbered.

We've had the East/West split which hurt queue times by quite a bit. People believing that it'll kill the bracket. Want to know what I think will kill the bracket? The constant 8-12 man premades that happen every day, throughout the day. I've already seen plenty of messages of "X group is queueing, guess it's time to stop playing".

I am here for the competition, that's what I want for the bracket. What isn't fun is getting into multiple games that are so one-sided, you can't do anything but be a honor punching bag.

I want 10v10 premades. They are fun to play and watch, but it's often not worth the effort if the general gamemode is riddled with giant, 10 man premades at peak hours. It'll only get worse as more people migrate to west to join the most dominate alliance guild when it comes to numbers.

This'll probably go on deaf ears, and you may think "you need to suck it up", but most alliance twinks only see their side. It can get pretty bad over here on horde. To the point where you just don't want to queue anymore as you can make better use of your time.

TL;DR - It would be cool to get more competitive games against other players, rather than straight dominate, impossible to win ones.

Edit: I personally think the problem isn't the premade itself, but how often a giant premade is going. That I don't find fun on both sides of the spectrum.

 

[Piffin]

49 it's even worse.
And split made it worse.Horde competition dropped big league.
Just solo queue

 

[Druiddroid]

In my opinion, the solution to this is for horde to make a large premade, too. You want competitive games? Alliance are bringing it, horde have to step up. This is something that people on alliance can help with by making horde toons.

Overall, I'm kind of confused by your stance. You want 10v10 premades, but you're bothered by a 10 man premade that shows up for several hours per day? Doesn't it seem like the perfect opportunity for horde to rally up a 10 man premade themselves?

Horde have a pretty bad queue timer compared to alliance, we all know that. The last thing someone wants to go against is a dominating premade vs their pug. I personally wouldn't want to wait 30 minutes for a queue only to be graveyard camped due to being outnumbered.

I don't understand what the issue is on this point about the queues. You're waiting 30 minutes for a queue, and then your team gets rolled over. As you said in this thread, this isn't fun for you and gets to the point where you don't want to queue anymore. This reduces horde queues.

 

[Neglected]

OP makes some great points, IMO. Premades are fun when they are against other premades, but those need to be organized. You can't just queue with 8-12 all the time and claim that you hope to run into a full premade from the other faction to have a competitive game. It's pretty apparent that's not going to happen at this stage, and certainly not with enough regularity to justify doing it.

Our guild has had the most fun when we queue 3-4 people. It makes for some fun, competitive games typically, which is what we're after. We have zero desire to grow the guild so we can queue with 10 people and dominate pugs. No one has fun in that scenario.

 

[Andris]

In my opinion, the solution to this is for horde to make a large premade, too. You want competitive games? Alliance are bringing it, horde have to step up. This is something that people on alliance can help with by making horde toons.

Overall, I'm kind of confused by your stance. You want 10v10 premades, but you're bothered by a 10 man premade that shows up for several hours per day? Doesn't it seem like the perfect opportunity for horde to rally up a 10 man premade themselves?

I don't understand what the issue is on this point about the queues. You're waiting 30 minutes for a queue, and then your team gets rolled over. As you said in this thread, this isn't fun for you and gets to the point where you don't want to queue anymore. This reduces horde queues.

Yes, I'm bothered by giant premades that show up every single day for hours on end. 10v10 premades mean that these groups are going against each other in an even playing field (When coordinating queues). Very different than queueing a dozen or more games against complete pugs that don't stand a chance.

Also, that's a pretty toxic mentality. You believe premade alliance vs pugs is a good thing because it makes people not want to play the game? That definitely isn't healthy for the bracket.

Overall, this whole thing wouldn't be a problem if there were more games going on, but we have 1-3 games going at most between wsg and ab combined. The chances you're going to get into a winless game is rather high. It seems that a lot of players have the "rollover and win without effort" as their top priority rather than "skilled-play".

 

[Muffin-Snack-Pack]

TLDR

West Coast Problems.

 

[Diminisht]

Andris this doesn't fall on deaf ears, I think most twinks want competition. In 49s we ran into the same problem, after the rep farm ended we all split into 3-5 man premades playing games. Problem is with the split we all get the same queue pop.

39s are facing the same issue, once AB rep grind is done, even if we split into multiple 3-5 man groups, we will get the same pop because simply there is only 1 or 2 AB or WSG going at a time. In fact, Horde kind of do the same thing, you don't think that Horde stomp alliance when you have 3-5 twinks from WM, 3-5 twinks from Biggles, and a couple random others? Just because Horde are not in the same group does not mean they do not end up in the same game. There is a reason so many twinks tend to go horde, its because from a competitive stand point they are stronger, and they win 75%+ of pug games.

I can start making changes on Ally WM to split into smaller groups now that most of our rep grind is done, but with the number of matches available that will not be a solution. The most likely solution is a larger horde twink population. and I think we are making strides getting there; with WM ally splitting off and making a handful of twinks on Biggles, WM horde having 5 new players in the making, and Munsters getting more active, it is all positive and should help the health of the bracket.

Frankly speaking, from a twink community perspective I would wager this is a good problem to have, Alliance actually have too many twinks, that is the opposite of what we normally face. We are so close to having a thriving twink community that we all want for competition, people need to just grind out the next few weeks as some of the new horde players are complete. In the meantime, let's keep an open dialogue to find solutions and keep things okay.

 

[Livingforce]

Horde needs and will step it up with their 10 man in the near future. Games will be epic! Can't wait!!!

Competitive 5/5 10/10's all the way bby!

 

[Hauntz]

Before the split Horde had always been dominant running a bunch of 5-10man premades from a number of different servers. Now that horde have a taste of what alliance had to go through for literal months theres nothing but salt on discord and the forums. TBH alliance took being dominated on the constant, with a much better attitude. What did they eventually do about it? They started recruiting, offering xp runs and hep gearing up for twinks that would re-roll on WM. The DoD is now the biggest twink guild on either battlegroup.

Going from what Dim has said we have people rolling on Bigglesworth/transferring over our horde toons from east coast to even out the numbers and help the bracket stay alive. I do realize that guilds like Slash AFK have been trying actively attempting to recruit but this post comes off as completely unnecessary, You have a hunter in our guild and join our premades just like anyone else in the guild would. There isn't one horde guild that has a problem having every online member for a premade group to queue battlegrounds, it's just they simply lack the numbers compared to the DoD. When Bigglesworth has the people to group 10mans, they will.

It seems to me you're specifically talking about OUR WM premades bur fail to recognize when horde had the numbers we do now they rolled alliance day in and day out. I'm not going to tell you to "suck it up" but dude... you're being completely hypocritical. Not only do you join our premades on your hunter but you will be in upcoming 10mans from Bigglesworth.

You're not looking at anything objectively. You're taking one point of view from horde side and applying it to the entire bracket. Do you not realize when WM go to sleep the queues literally just stop? Usually at some point during the night there's horde on the discord asking us to queue up just so they can get a game or two in. When WM drop queue there are no alliance left.. the alliance pugs are literally a joke, and have less competition compared to horde pugs vs our premades. This brings in the same scenario of just rolling over the enemy team with little effort. The reality of the situation is that without the DoD there is minimal if any competition from alliance on the west coast, besides Scrubhuntin and his guys on Thunderfury. Horde have a number of servers that are able to run 5+mans but lack the overall numbers that DoD has because they did some mass recruiting before the split. All the Alliance are concentrated on a single realm comparatively to horde who are split up between like 5-6 realms.

We have addressed the problems of the bracket because we do realize we hold a heavy hand in how things play out. You have been talked to about this on discord just the other night, we told you that we have alliance rolling horde on bigglesworth and that Noah & I are bringing our horde toons over. This post just makes you look really salty dude... very unnecessary

 

[Outofspace]

Ofc Ally took a beating better, they have instant queues. It's also why once recruitment efforts began Ally picked up steam really fast because people want alts and they want short queues. Folks aren't going to be enthusiastic to roll H just to even things out if they still face horrible queues.

It's also why A premades run for longer durations, nonstop instant queues keep people playing. Just a few of the very asymmetrical aspects contributing to people's attitudes.

 

[Scrubhuntin]

I understand where the thought comes from, but I do remember you GY farming with a premade before when horde was dominating alliance so I also don't get the post. This is still the limbo time after blizz screwed the brackets. Recovering from it will take some time but steps ARE being taken to balance things. I know a few of my guys may be interested in rerolling some hordes somewhere as well and will always switch to the side that needs help if/when we can get those toons setup.

IMO just be a bit more patient and have more of a backbone for losses. I don't think any horde ever saw me give up on a game when I was getting hardfarmed by premades. I think you(i mean this as a horde collective not you personally) can handle the reverse happening. But overall give it some time. I think the community is strong just need to work together collectively to make sure the community stays strong overall.

 

[Livingforce]

I understand where the thought comes from, but I do remember you GY farming with a premade before when horde was dominating alliance so I also don't get the post. This is still the limbo time after blizz screwed the brackets. Recovering from it will take some time but steps ARE being taken to balance things. I know a few of my guys may be interested in rerolling some hordes somewhere as well and will always switch to the side that needs help if/when we can get those toons setup.

IMO just be a bit more patient and have more of a backbone for losses. I don't think any horde ever saw me give up on a game when I was getting hardfarmed by premades. I think you(i mean this as a horde collective not you personally) can handle the reverse happening. But overall give it some time. I think the community is strong just need to work together collectively to make sure the community stays strong overall.

It will be interesting how the scales will look by the end of next month for BG's. I'm optimistic and I think alliance needs this. As I think a large flux of horde players will come to even the teams.

Also due to the arena tournaments starting to happen (And more to come) Will make more horde players want to come!

 

[Andris]

I understand where the thought comes from, but I do remember you GY farming with a premade before when horde was dominating alliance so I also don't get the post. This is still the limbo time after blizz screwed the brackets. Recovering from it will take some time but steps ARE being taken to balance things. I know a few of my guys may be interested in rerolling some hordes somewhere as well and will always switch to the side that needs help if/when we can get those toons setup.

IMO just be a bit more patient and have more of a backbone for losses. I don't think any horde ever saw me give up on a game when I was getting hardfarmed by premades. I think you(i mean this as a horde collective not you personally) can handle the reverse happening. But overall give it some time. I think the community is strong just need to work together collectively to make sure the community stays strong overall.

Actually, my group and I have always pushed to end the game if it's a beating. Horde pugs often say to not cap and farm them. We tell them no and even complain if they try to withold it.

Also to point out. We were up 2/0 and you went to the side of the map to stand on a saw while you waited for the game to end. I came over to hang out with ya until they finished capping, but a certain mage got angry at me for not spam killing you because "no mercy on the battlefield." So yes, you gave up.

 

[Scrubhuntin]

lol.. gj pointing out the one game I had something to attend to mid-game. I came back to the 3rd flag crossing and your emotes. RL took precedence.

I'm pointing out that your team was a premade(I dont take ss's or vids but trust me your team was in our GY for some time as I remember that game as well because I received 4 grenades at the same time which made me chuckle twice over) My point though is that you are complaining about the very thing horde was doing early on before the split. I get the idea you are going for, but telling people to either not q with their friends/guildies kind of defeats the purpose of twinking with friends to begin with. I dont disagree with you about premades can kill a bracket if nobody changes anything to help change that(that is not the case here) At least alliance is pushing for re-rolls and help to xfer etc. I still think patience is the way to go and maybe some intentional advertising/full funds offered or something of the like by some of the horde guilds can help the process along.

Can some of the big guilds not 10v10? yeah.. but with so few games rolling, if they all solo q'd, they'd still have a high probability of getting tons of twinks in the same bg anyways. would the next step be for alliance not to q at all during specific times? The easier and better answer is for horde to add to the population of twinks to premade and then start organizing games(this is where things are headed)

what I'd like to really know for sure is why hordes q's are slower. Is it like I believe and more horde players in general are q'ing making it longer to get into a game due to first in line gets in based on open slots/availability or is it because horde in general have less players q'ing so it just takes longer to fill the full amount of games so people are waiting on games to end?

 

[Andris]

lol.. gj pointing out the one game I had something to attend to mid-game. I came back to the 3rd flag crossing and your emotes. RL took precedence.

I'm pointing out that your team was a premade(I dont take ss's or vids but trust me your team was in our GY for some time as I remember that game as well because I received 4 grenades at the same time which made me chuckle twice over) My point though is that you are complaining about the very thing horde was doing early on before the split. I get the idea you are going for, but telling people to either not q with their friends/guildies kind of defeats the purpose of twinking with friends to begin with. I dont disagree with you about premades can kill a bracket if nobody changes anything to help change that(that is not the case here) At least alliance is pushing for re-rolls and help to xfer etc. I still think patience is the way to go and maybe some intentional advertising/full funds offered or something of the like by some of the horde guilds can help the process along.

Can some of the big guilds not 10v10? yeah.. but with so few games rolling, if they all solo q'd, they'd still have a high probability of getting tons of twinks in the same bg anyways. would the next step be for alliance not to q at all during specific times? The easier and better answer is for horde to add to the population of twinks to premade and then start organizing games(this is where things are headed)

what I'd like to really know for sure is why hordes q's are slower. Is it like I believe and more horde players in general are q'ing making it longer to get into a game due to first in line gets in based on open slots/availability or is it because horde in general have less players q'ing so it just takes longer to fill the full amount of games so people are waiting on games to end?

Okay, so you decided that instead of afking out so that alliance can get a player that can help the team, you decided to hide and afk the side for 5 or so minutes. Nice team play, gj. There isn't a defense to this.

 

[Druiddroid]

Also, that's a pretty toxic mentality. You believe premade alliance vs pugs is a good thing because it makes people not want to play the game? That definitely isn't healthy for the bracket.

With regards to the horde queues, it does improve them.

 

[Piffin]

what I'd like to really know for sure is why hordes q's are slower. Is it like I believe and more horde players in general are q'ing making it longer to get into a game due to first in line gets in based on open slots/availability or is it because horde in general have less players q'ing so it just takes longer to fill the full amount of games so people are waiting on games to end?

Horde has more players on PvP servers, more horde pugs queue.

Just want to say don't blame any players blame blizzard for messing this up.People are trying to fix blizzards fuck up but recognise some twinks have already dropped out because they don't want to give blizzard another dime.

 

[Sanit]

Man what a refreshing and new topic that has never been discussed before :^ )

 

[Scrubhuntin]

Okay, so you decided that instead of afking out so that alliance can get a player that can help the team, you decided to hide and afk the side for 5 or so minutes. Nice team play, gj. There isn't a defense to this.

afk'ing out wouldnt have changed that game already being 0-2 since you guys were doing exactly what you are crying about right now and premading against levelers and maybe 2 twinks. Why would i waste someone elses time to join when in theory you should have capped it 45 seconds later if you "gasp" werent gy farming as a guild... Took your premade 5 minutes to cap with 1 less twink fighting you? Sounds a lot like GY farming to me. you may not have partook, but your guild sure did. Deflect more.


/wave @Sanit

 

[Andris]

afk'ing out wouldnt have changed that game already being 0-2 since you guys were doing exactly what you are crying about right now and premading against levelers and maybe 2 twinks. Why would i waste someone elses time to join when in theory you should have capped it 45 seconds later if you "gasp" werent gy farming as a guild... Took your premade 5 minutes to cap with 1 less twink fighting you? Sounds a lot like GY farming to me. you may not have partook, but your guild sure did. Deflect more.


/wave @Sanit

Again, you said you came back to the game and seen me. You didn't move, nor attack. Why? You said you wouldn't give up, yet you did. Either way, you're a bg afker and admitted to it. That's all we need to know. Either way, we weren't a giant premade, but a handful or less. You can make up things all you want, but if we were camping gy, you wouldn't have been able to leave and you wouldn't have any idea as you were apparently afk.

This post was mostly to try and be professional about everything and just try and promote a more competitive pug atmosphere. Pugstomping gets boring on both ends, at least for me. People seem to take it to heart and call it "salt". I'll just go against my whole post and GY camp from now on I guess. That's what people want.