EU+US 20's (Veteran & F2P) Tier List - BFA 8.3

[Kirise]

That's way off.
Sure in a 1v1 a rsham can utilise the interrupt to the fullest extent, but in a setting of 5v5 twink groups in a WSG, its very dangerous for an rsham to dive the enemy team for a 30 range interrupt on enemy healers. The same goes with earthbind, ele can penetrate deeper without instantly getting a target on it's back.

Agreed, an rsham shouldn't dive an enemy team to interrupt healers (even though I love doing that). But that's not the main use of shear for rshams anyway -- use the shear to interrupt offensive casters, and use earthbind to either slow the retreat of the enemy front line, or to help peel melee. Ele can penetrate deeper only because it's not as threatening an opponent.

Again, the kit is the same so Rsham mobility is the same as ele sham, except less dps on instant and more healing. The overall damage of ele is significantly lower than resto, atleast not enough to warrant labeling that burst as useless. Sure the dots might tick less and the LBs are a little lower but ele doesnt just have the earth shock it also doesnt have a cd on its flame shock, something resto has to deal with, so ele dot pressure is gonna be higher than resto, assuming theres enough targets over an extended period of time.

If there were no CD on flame shock for ele, that would be worth a look, but my ele flameshock tooltip says the CD remains the same?

 

[rockworldofwarcraft]

rofl that shit would be the tits with no cooldown on flameshock.

 

[Goesid]

The question is not "how does ele compare to resto?"

The question is "how does ele compare to shadow/destro" which are the other specs that are quite similar in role and with which is shares a tier.

The answer is, its pretty much the same. Which means its where it needs to be.

I didn't want to compare it to resto, because resto is clearly better for an overall rating, my only mention of resto was that they share the same utility kit. That is what started this entire thing about fkin lightning bolt dmg and what not. I dont really care what lightning bolts hits for. Its a maelstrom generator, its damage is irrelevant since your damage comes from Flame Shock and your burst from the Earth Shock.

A little... In TWO times

The same CD for Fshock - 6sec

Maybe if you compare crit and non crit.

Agreed, an rsham shouldn't dive an enemy team to interrupt healers (even though I love doing that). But that's not the main use of shear for rshams anyway -- use the shear to interrupt offensive casters, and use earthbind to either slow the retreat of the enemy front line, or to help peel melee. Ele can penetrate deeper only because it's not as threatening an opponent.



If there were no CD on flame shock for ele, that would be worth a look, but my ele flameshock tooltip says the CD remains the same?

That's fine in pugs. Ye? Thats good? Not sure how to respond, thanks for proving my point I guess?


Ye, sorry they gave it a cd when they removed it eating the maelstrom. Mixing up my patches a little.

 

[Kirise]

That's fine in pugs. Ye? Thats good? Not sure how to respond, thanks for proving my point I guess?

For PuGs I would push in to interrupt healers. I'm trying to get at what your point is, because I'm not understanding it. How can ele leverage the shaman kit in such a way that ele competes with arcane mages and MM hunters, rather than working at the level of destro locks and shadow priests? I'm all for it -- I'm just not seeing it.

Ye, sorry they gave it a cd when they removed it eating the maelstrom. Mixing up my patches a little.

No worries. I thought ele had thunderstorm at 20, and apparently either that changed, or maybe that was never the case, and I didn't know.

 

[Goesid]

For PuGs I would push in to interrupt healers. I'm trying to get at what your point is, because I'm not understanding it. How can ele leverage the shaman kit in such a way that ele competes with arcane mages and MM hunters, rather than working at the level of destro locks and shadow priests? I'm all for it -- I'm just not seeing it.



No worries. I thought ele had thunderstorm at 20, and apparently either that changed, or maybe that was never the case, and I didn't know.

1. Sure vs levelers thats fine, but in a wsg where both teams has a group of 5 twinks, thats gonna cost you. You might live but thats a dangerous play.

2a) Arcane mages, sure arcane spam is good dmg, but they have alot of flaws, like alot. They are cloth, which means melees and hunters hit like trucks on them. They have 1 school, so if you lock them, they cant dps and they cant blink, they just have nova which might help vs melees, but hunters and casters are still gonna destroy them. They have 0 self healing. Aside from that nlink, they have 0 mobility.

2b) MM is better than Ele. Flat out.

2c) Destro is very immobile and while it has more survivability it's barely noteworthy, but that mobility makes them very bad for pugs. A destro lock cant chase a rdruid, they dont have anything for that. An ele shaman can chase for awhile.

2d) Shadow priest is all melt and dot, they thrive in wargames and in 15v15. Even assuming 5v5 groups in WSG, they are not gonna get to utilize their dps and same as with destro lock, they cant chase. If we were doing wargame rankings or EotS ranking, Id want shadow priest higher, but for shitty wsgs, they are lackluster.

3.

Not since MoP

 

[Chops]

I get wanting ele to be a higher tier, I really do. But look at the rest of the tier its in, and then the tier above it and tell me its in the wrong place. Its current tier is full of classes that are "situationally extremely good but mostly just kinda alright" which I think is spot on. Ele shamans biggest strength is that its not great, so it gets overlooked and left alone which means its typically free to interrupt and slow and spread dots and such.

And when you're biggest strength is that you're not enough of a threat to worry about... youre not A tier.

 

[Kirise]

1. Sure vs levelers thats fine, but in a wsg where both teams has a group of 5 twinks, thats gonna cost you. You might live but thats a dangerous play.

Agreed, which is why I don't see ele's propensity to play deeper as an advantage. That may change in SL when F2Ps look to get more melee-focused, but not right now.

Arcane has its weaknesses, but the range counts for a lot. Casters can't immobilize them from range since interrupted mages can just step back out of range until the lockout ends, and any melee that plunges in on a mage will (should?) get lit up by the mage's teammates.

Destro and shadow are indeed situational. I ran into a destro lock last week that impressed me with how well they used the lock's toolkit to offbalance my team. Well-placed fears make a difference.

3. Not since MoP

That makes sense, the last time I played F2Ps on the regular was MoP.

 

[Dpook]

My fav community ppl - im about to hop on my ele shaman (Shakira) and try to show yall ele is dangerous - i know yall would say "well its not wargames".... No one plays wargames atm and this list seems to be speaking about BGs generally. So if y'all non ele supporters want to prove why ele aint impactful hop on your alliance twinks and show me BTW i will be streaming
[doublepost=1595901842,1595900729][/doublepost]Guess ele is really B tier peep the time. Ele shall remain as B Tier.

[doublepost=1595901917][/doublepost]

My fav community ppl - im about to hop on my ele shaman (Shakira) and try to show yall ele is dangerous - i know yall would say "well its not wargames".... No one plays wargames atm and this list seems to be speaking about BGs generally. So if y'all non ele supporters want to prove why ele aint impactful hop on your alliance twinks and show me BTW i will be streaming
[doublepost=1595901842,1595900729][/doublepost]Guess ele is really B tier peep the time. Ele shall remain as B Tier.

Dont mind the damage i posted to show the victory

 

[Chops]

My fav community ppl - im about to hop on my ele shaman (Shakira) and try to show yall ele is dangerous - i know yall would say "well its not wargames".... No one plays wargames atm and this list seems to be speaking about BGs generally. So if y'all non ele supporters want to prove why ele aint impactful hop on your alliance twinks and show me BTW i will be streaming
[doublepost=1595901842,1595900729][/doublepost]Guess ele is really B tier peep the time. Ele shall remain as B Tier.
View attachment 16051
[doublepost=1595901917][/doublepost]

Dont mind the damage i posted to show the victory

Carried by Jrmilk, honestly

 

[Kirise]

BTW i will be streaming

Do you have a VoD of that game? I don't play ele, and would love to see one in action to get a better understanding of how it works.

 

[ohti]

My fav community ppl - im about to hop on my ele shaman (Shakira) and try to show yall ele is dangerous - i know yall would say "well its not wargames".... No one plays wargames atm and this list seems to be speaking about BGs generally. So if y'all non ele supporters want to prove why ele aint impactful hop on your alliance twinks and show me BTW i will be streaming

It's not that ele is bad, it's that it doesn't compare to anything in the A tier and above.

Literally anything with an alchemist's flask can make a big impact on a random BG.

B tier is still pretty damn good.

 

[Goesid]

Agreed, which is why I don't see ele's propensity to play deeper as an advantage. That may change in SL when F2Ps look to get more melee-focused, but not right now.

Arcane has its weaknesses, but the range counts for a lot. Casters can't immobilize them from range since interrupted mages can just step back out of range until the lockout ends, and any melee that plunges in on a mage will (should?) get lit up by the mage's teammates.

Destro and shadow are indeed situational. I ran into a destro lock last week that impressed me with how well they used the lock's toolkit to offbalance my team. Well-placed fears make a difference.



That makes sense, the last time I played F2Ps on the regular was MoP.

Hunters have the strongest burst at this level and most of them arent melee.

Arcane has ALOT of weaknesses. The range on poly is the same as wind shear, 30. Yes melees will get lit up if they chase but a hunter, or other ranged like say ele doesnt have to chase to get 'em.

 

[Chops]

Hunters have the strongest burst at this level

wut

 

[tence]

wut

Aim and pray

 

[Chops]

Aim and pray

I prefer to smash execute and then roar like a dinosaur

 

[Kirise]

Hunters have the strongest burst at this level and most of them arent melee.

That's been my experience, too.

Arcane has ALOT of weaknesses. The range on poly is the same as wind shear, 30. Yes melees will get lit up if they chase but a hunter, or other ranged like say ele doesnt have to chase to get 'em.

That's not my experience. A 3-second lockout from shear isn't long enough to keep a mage from getting away if they want to, and ele doesn't have the burst to change that. The only instant damage spells ele has are flame shock and earth shock, and those aren't going to burn down a mage in time for them to get away, or force an ele to self-heal and buy the mage time.

 

[Goesid]

That's been my experience, too.



That's not my experience. A 3-second lockout from shear isn't long enough to keep a mage from getting away if they want to, and ele doesn't have the burst to change that. The only instant damage spells ele has are flame shock and earth shock, and those aren't going to burn down a mage in time for them to get away, or force an ele to self-heal and buy the mage time.

WSG isnt a solo game. The mage is immobilized, ele provides an interrupt preventing blink and a 50% slow. There is also a team to help ensure a kill from that.

 

[rockworldofwarcraft]

WSG isnt a solo game. The mage is immobilized, ele provides an interrupt preventing blink and a 50% slow. There is also a team to help ensure a kill from that.

Really just digging too deep now. Elemental is dog shit... its not like everybody came to that conclusion in a day... its been over a year. It was dog shit then... it's dog shit now. It does not do 1 single thing better than Resto... not one. The entire "burst" concept of Earthshock is just terrible as that burst compared to real big dick damage from other burst classes is just laughable. IF you have malestrom... IF you are a full vet twink with glass cannon enchants... IF you get a crit... it is just not good. Quite frankly getting two crits in a row on your resto is going to do more damage than the watered down elemental damage + an earth-shock in the same amount of time. It is just not good. Please let this nonsense TROLL shit die.

Showing 100k plus damage on a glass cannon elemental from a pubstomp does not show anything... if the game goes on long enough and there are not that many other better twinks taking your kills quickly and early flame shock damage from a Vet with enchants will get you there alone... that DOES NOT mean elemental is not dog shit. If the same circumstances show up you can also probably do that on a shockadin... that does not mean shockadins are going to roll out hard on average.

 

[Goesid]

Really just digging too deep now. Elemental is dog shit... its not like everybody came to that conclusion in a day... its been over a year. It was dog shit then... it's dog shit now. It does not do 1 single thing better than Resto... not one. The entire "burst" concept of Earthshock is just terrible as that burst compared to real big dick damage from other burst classes is just laughable. IF you have malestrom... IF you are a full vet twink with glass cannon enchants... IF you get a crit... it is just not good. Quite frankly getting two crits in a row on your resto is going to do more damage than the watered down elemental damage + an earth-shock in the same amount of time. It is just not good. Please let this nonsense TROLL shit die.

Showing 100k plus damage on a glass cannon elemental from a pubstomp does not show anything... if the game goes on long enough and there are not that many other better twinks taking your kills quickly and early flame shock damage from a Vet with enchants will get you there alone... that DOES NOT mean elemental is not dog shit. If the same circumstances show up you can also probably do that on a shockadin... that does not mean shockadins are going to roll out hard on average.

More like dumb as a rockworldofwarcraft.

 

[rockworldofwarcraft]

Really just digging too deep now. Elemental is dog shit... its not like everybody came to that conclusion in a day... its been over a year. It was dog shit then... it's dog shit now. It does not do 1 single thing better than Resto... not one. The entire "burst" concept of Earthshock is just terrible as that burst compared to real big dick damage from other burst classes is just laughable. IF you have malestrom... IF you are a full vet twink with glass cannon enchants... IF you get a crit... it is just not good. Quite frankly getting two crits in a row on your resto is going to do more damage than the watered down elemental damage + an earth-shock in the same amount of time. It is just not good. Please let this nonsense TROLL shit die.

Anybody can show a screen shot of 100k + damage on an elemental

More like dumb as a rockworldofwarcraft.

yep that about sums up everything you said.