2020 election

[telle]

Assume you're left wing?
But I agree with a good 99% of this. Well said.

Yes, others would probably define my political beliefs as being such. I have always been a little hesitant to have myself pigeonholed by that terminology, but I suppose it is a succinct way to label it.

 

[soup is yume]

if Bernie moved any more to the left, he'd fall off the goddamn political spectrum entirely.

Bernie isn't even far left in the US, so not sure what you are talking about. I mean hell Mayor Bernie is so much farther left then current Bernie.

I honestly am not a big believer in these center left-right terms. In my book, you're either left or you're right. All these terms are just made up by a bunch of people over the years who tried to differentiate themselves from a particular group of people because of certain conflicts of interests or other similar affairs regarding their own agenda. Sure you may feel some kind of way about certain issues that would lean more towards the other side of the spectrum, which is only normal, but you're still, at heart, left or right-wing supporter. I'm sure some liberals feel the same way about some things like socialists for example and vice versa. But these little issues that differentiate these groups from each other aren't necessarily that big a factor that would change them from left to right or right to left.


The left is a joke, I'm sorry but it's what I believe.

And oh boy there's a lot to unpack here, one you seem to be labeling who is left and right based off your relative position which is kinda dumb just saying. There is plenty of political science that goes through and creates these labels for groups and ideologies. I mean first off you mention the left and right which im guessing are stand ins for dems and repubs but then say liberals, which is a term used to talk about dems but both parties are liberal parties. So not really sure what your point is there, unless you are saying that the repubs are farther right then liberalism or neoliberalism which starts moving towards the edge of fascism (im not saying they are im just saying its right of liberalism). You also mention liberals having ideologies close to socialism, which i would ask you to define what kind of socialism you are looking at. Its difficult to understand your statement when you mention something that can apply to over half of the political compass. We can get back to that point after you clarify what kind of socialism you are talking about, either naming an ideology or country/area.

 

[Devm]

No need to apologize for explaining why you hold the beliefs you do; particularly if you are willing to express how you came to those conclusions, which you have demonstrated you are willing to do. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and thankfully in societies that recognize freedom of speech, individuals are able to express these.

I too share a certain abhorrence to many of the political terminologies and buzz words that seem to be thrown around nonchalantly, albeit for different reasons. From my own perspective, the binary lens that politics is often viewed through oversimplifies the complexities of individuals' beliefs that are formed, cultivated and/or changed through their own subjective experiences. So I do think we differ on this point. It is my belief that there are shades between black & white, right & wrong or left & right.

You are correct when you state that left-wing politics, or liberalism generally, focuses primarily on equality, freedom and rights. It was the liberal thinkers and movement that uprooted the monarchs and feudal systems that had been in place for generations and replaced them with democratically run governments that enshrined those freedoms in constitutional rights. It is at it's core. The 'obsession' with these values has persevered in the time since because intolerance and inequality was not and cannot be obliterated by the simple one-time passing of legislation.

I do acknowledge that people's right to free speech has been obfuscated in the modern political climate and it can be argued that 'the left' is guilty more often of this infringement. However, both sides participate in this buffoonery and it ought to be recognized as a non partisan issue that ought to be called out and remedied. As mentioned previously, all people are entitled to their own opinions and should be free to express them; attached to that freedom, is the freedom for people of differing opinions to critique and call BS when they hear it.

I have probably said more than enough for a single post, so I will only briefly touch on this last point you brought up: taxes. Yes, it may feel like punishment, and plenty of working class people can attest to that, but that is the price of admission. If you want to set up your business in a free society with roads that were paved and maintained with taxpayer dollars, ship your products with the federal postal service that is paid for by taxpayer dollars, and have access to police and fire services that are paid for by taxpayer dollars... PONY UP. 'Hard working CEOs' who pay poverty wages and hide their fortunes from the IRS are leeches, plain and simple. They are non-participants and contribute the bare minimum, but god forbid that any politician grow a pair and discuss raising their taxes. Socialism! Now, that is a joke.

Very constructive and informative post indeed, refreshing to read this. I agree with pretty much everything you said regarding the formation of the disfigurement of modern days societies views and beliefs regarding the social rights of the political left. I'm sure people from both sides have had their hand in this process at some point in time, but the point I was trying to bring across, which I think you understood pretty well, was the ever-increasing infatuation and exaggeration of the principles the left-wing is supposed to be about in its core. The fact that it is horribly distorted, exploited, exaggereted and thus misunderstood to the point it's becoming a whole new ideology and belief system of its own and true supporters of the left-wing political spectrum are often blind to this change or ignore it's happening in the first place. What then naturally follows are many arguements/fights regarding what's best for their society when their faith is misplaced due to this change. Then when I see politicians from the DNC in particular (I'm sure people from all parties do this) abuse this knowledge to pit people against each other and create an atmosphere of distrust and aversion, I just find it really unfortunate.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion and I'm not going to hate you for thinking some kind of way about something.
A good example of what I mean could be feminism. The core principles what feminism is about is equality, which is fair. I can see that and understand that that's important and should be so like any normal human being would. But then it gets exaggerated and distorted to the point where it's becoming more and more a man-hating movement instead of a movement that fights for equality. Then when the DNC exploited this by making sure Clinton got the vast majority of the female voters simply because she was a woman, I find it very discomforting. Or now with Joe Biden having a black female running mate. There's nothing wrong with that, she could be smart and very qualified. But they play on the emotions and insecurities of the very people they manipulate by distorting the facts which will now vote on on the democratic party again simply because she's a woman and or a person of color. People are pit against each other for no productive reason whatsoever.

The whole George Floyd situation, obviously black and white people should be treated equally and racism is one of the truest forms of cancer in todays society. But then politicians see this as a chance to advance their agenda and instead of trying to work things out they add fuel to the fire to make sure things get blown even more out of proportion. Then all the riots and looting and stuff happens, people die, racism is becoming more popular yada yada yada. And guess what? People naturally end up blaming the current ruling party and people are even more pit against each other than they were before. People got manipulated, lied to, thrown in jail and died just so certain people could get more votes. All because people can't see when facts are being distorted and refuse to see it.

I also completely agree with you on the fact that people who hide their wealth from the IRS and/or participate in other unethical if not fraudulent activities are scum and belong in jail. Any criminal should, but why should 1 law abiding citizen who contributes to society pay more money in tax than the other simply because he earns more money? Because a choise a different career path? Sure it would be the right thing to do in a sense, if you have way more money it would only be fair if you paid more in tax to support your nation right? But it shouldn't be an obligation, left-wing supporters are all for equality right? They're only for it when it suits them, but when it comes to equal tax rates they don't like it.

 

[Daltert Moropi]

... wow, that was interesting to read since my last post.

edit: I’ve just checked norpoth’s prediction for 2020... looks like it could be a trump victory.

https://channel411news.com/2020/09/...elmut-norpoth-predicts-another-win-for-trump/

 

[Chops]

Assume you're left wing?
But I agree with a good 99% of this. Well said.

I agree with pretty much everything you said regarding the formation of the disfigurement of modern days societies views and beliefs regarding the social rights of the political left.

I think yall will both find that once you get past the idea that "the left" "liberals" and "democrats" are all the same and recognize some pretty significant differences between them, you'll come to find that you have a lot more in common with, say, the left (specifically the anti-woke/intolerant/"dirtbag" left, whatever you wanna call it) than you previously thought. Remember, Libertarianism started on the left before it got perverted by the american right.

I think a lot of issues get sensationalized beyond their scope. I tried to make this point in the Uncle Bens thread, but it got lost so I'll re-state it here: Often, people will take like 3 or 4 public tweets from rando twitter users, or some op-ed in a college paper nobody reads and then write an article about "the left hates cereal mascots" or "the right wants to burn gays at the stake" or something and then gin up a controversy and all of a sudden everyone has an opinion. When in reality I dont know anyone who actually cares about this shit. At least not folks who are doing real political work.

I get where the performative nature of a lot of this stuff irritates folks because it irritates me. For instance, I mock the democrat ticket for including Kamala Harris in a cynical bid to appeal to "woke" liberals, because she's a vile person with an abhorrent record on civil rights. And I think you guys on the right pick up on that hypocrisy and are rightly turned off by it too. "But trump will appoint conservative supreme court justices" and yea man, who do you think cleared the way for clarence thomas? Biden! Its all very frustrating and stupid and honestly we could all probably bond by getting together, having a few beers and mocking the DNC.

And if I was under the impression that the American left was represented by the democratic party (as I assume folks in different countries are) I would think they were a joke too.

Say you're a leftist around these parts and everyone wants to yell at you about idpol and sjw stuff and how trans kids are too damn sensitive and like... I'm talking about land redistribution, nationalizing banks/industry, negotiating an end to american imperialism and eventually dissolving the state. What I believe is that people work too hard and are paid too little and have too little say in their workplaces and to me, the solution is to turn capital over to the workers and eliminate the entire capitalist class that does nothing but suck up and hoard the value generated by *your* work while cheating on their taxes almost as much as they do their spouses. We should redesign society now that we have the technology, so that we can produce what we need, equitably distribute the surplus and ultimately work less and spend more time enjoying life. Why should someone else be getting rich off my hard work when we could be using the value and resources generated by our work to advance all of us?

I get the impression folks think we want to turn the world into Oberlin College and really, Im just aiming for Rojava.

 

[Twobuttons]

I think yall will both find that once you get past the idea that "the left" "liberals" and "democrats" are all the same and recognize some pretty significant differences between them, you'll come to find that you have a lot more in common with, say, the left (specifically the anti-woke/intolerant/"dirtbag" left, whatever you wanna call it) than you previously thought. Remember, Libertarianism started on the left before it got perverted by the american right.

I think a lot of issues get sensationalized beyond their scope. I tried to make this point in the Uncle Bens thread, but it got lost so I'll re-state it here: Often, people will take like 3 or 4 public tweets from rando twitter users, or some op-ed in a college paper nobody reads and then write an article about "the left hates cereal mascots" or "the right wants to burn gays at the stake" or something and then gin up a controversy and all of a sudden everyone has an opinion. When in reality I dont know anyone who actually cares about this shit. At least not folks who are doing real political work.

I get where the performative nature of a lot of this stuff irritates folks because it irritates me. For instance, I mock the democrat ticket for including Kamala Harris in a cynical bid to appeal to "woke" liberals, because she's a vile person with an abhorrent record on civil rights. And I think you guys on the right pick up on that hypocrisy and are rightly turned off by it too. "But trump will appoint conservative supreme court justices" and yea man, who do you think cleared the way for clarence thomas? Biden! Its all very frustrating and stupid and honestly we could all probably bond by getting together, having a few beers and mocking the DNC.

And if I was under the impression that the American left was represented by the democratic party (as I assume folks in different countries are) I would think they were a joke too.

Say you're a leftist around these parts and everyone wants to yell at you about idpol and sjw stuff and how trans kids are too damn sensitive and like... I'm talking about land redistribution, nationalizing banks/industry, negotiating an end to american imperialism and eventually dissolving the state. What I believe is that people work too hard and are paid too little and have too little say in their workplaces and to me, the solution is to turn capital over to the workers and eliminate the entire capitalist class that does nothing but suck up and hoard the value generated by *your* work while cheating on their taxes almost as much as they do their spouses. We should redesign society now that we have the technology, so that we can produce what we need, equitably distribute the surplus and ultimately work less and spend more time enjoying life. Why should someone else be getting rich off my hard work when we could be using the value and resources generated by our work to advance all of us?

I get the impression folks think we want to turn the world into Oberlin College and really, Im just aiming for Rojava.

I liked all of this except the very end where you say "why should someone get rich off all my hard work". You would be referring to a business that someone took a financial risk to start and employed you? Be specific, because starting your own business is much harder work and more expensive until it has become established. Doing things on your own and working for a company isn't too much different except for the fact of the risk.

 

[Chops]

I liked all of this except the very end where you say "why should someone get rich off all my hard work". You would be referring to a business that someone took a financial risk to start and employed you? Be specific, because starting your own business is much harder work and more expensive until it has become established. Doing things on your own and working for a company isn't too much different except for the fact of the risk.

Ultimately I believe the people who own the business should be the ones who work the business. But Im not really talking about mom and pop shops here.

I have no beef with the talented artisan that turns their talents and labor into a surplus of resources for them and their family. Where I take issue is when that surplus relies on the exploitation of anothers labor. I don't think thats a good model for society.

Should the small business owner be rewarded for their risk? Well, where does that risk come from? Because mom and pop business owners aren't capitalists. They owe money to the capitalists because they took out a small business loan to get started. And they probably owe rent to a landlord who owes money to the capitalist, because they took out a mortgage. But that building was built by labor. As were all the tools the business uses. Everything involved was developed, built, produced and utilized by labor. Yet labor bears all the risk, while the capitalist profits regardless.

What I'm more talking about is those capitalists and the people who make money off trading, designing and manipulating financial products derived from stock value. That stock value is based entirely on the productivity (or imagined productivity) of labor and nothing else. Yet the people who seem to profit the most off that labor arent the people doing the work but rather the people who trade those stocks back and forth, create economic bubbles based on speculation from which they generate massive wealth off our work, and then leave us holding the bag when it crumbles every 15 years. They're leeches.

Ultimately, to try to put it in a digestible slogan: Your work should earn you money, your money should not earn you money.

 

[soup is yume]

I liked all of this except the very end where you say "why should someone get rich off all my hard work". You would be referring to a business that someone took a financial risk to start and employed you?

Wage theft is valid to be angry at, if you do all the work then you should receive all your work value. Someone shouldnt take most of my work value for sitting on their ass all day.

 

[Dorigon]

You guys need to start working for yourselves.

 

[Chops]

You guys need to start working for yourselves.

only possible if the workers own the means of production! Lets go, comrade!

 

[Tom Ganks]

 

[Twobuttons]

Ultimately I believe the people who own the business should be the ones who work the business. But Im not really talking about mom and pop shops here.

I have no beef with the talented artisan that turns their talents and labor into a surplus of resources for them and their family. Where I take issue is when that surplus relies on the exploitation of anothers labor. I don't think thats a good model for society.

Should the small business owner be rewarded for their risk? Well, where does that risk come from? Because mom and pop business owners aren't capitalists. They owe money to the capitalists because they took out a small business loan to get started. And they probably owe rent to a landlord who owes money to the capitalist, because they took out a mortgage. But that building was built by labor. As were all the tools the business uses. Everything involved was developed, built, produced and utilized by labor. Yet labor bears all the risk, while the capitalist profits regardless.

What I'm more talking about is those capitalists and the people who make money off trading, designing and manipulating financial products derived from stock value. That stock value is based entirely on the productivity (or imagined productivity) of labor and nothing else. Yet the people who seem to profit the most off that labor arent the people doing the work but rather the people who trade those stocks back and forth, create economic bubbles based on speculation from which they generate massive wealth off our work, and then leave us holding the bag when it crumbles every 15 years. They're leeches.

Ultimately, to try to put it in a digestible slogan: Your work should earn you money, your money should not earn you money.

Well said and I agree. Though not all mom and pop places got anything from anyone. And we're all slaves to tax no matter.
[doublepost=1601987653,1601987472][/doublepost]

Wage theft is valid to be angry at, if you do all the work then you should receive all your work value. Someone shouldnt take most of my work value for sitting on their ass all day.

Some bosses shouldn't have the position that they have. Bad hires happen in all levels of employment. I don't blame one bad boss for one good boss. Just like I don't blame an employee that works for me that wrecks a 500k tractor.

 

[Dorigon]

only possible if the workers own the means of production! Lets go, comrade!

I don't trust the workers any more than the capitalists. Greed is an endemic trait of humans, as is incompetence.

 

[Twobuttons]

I don't trust the workers any more than the capitalists. Greed is an endemic trait of humans, as is incompetence.

Youll have to make money some how old friend. And you're right, greed will change just about anyone. Unless you are raised differently.

 

[Quackbesteu]

I think yall will both find that once you get past the idea that "the left" "liberals" and "democrats" are all the same and recognize some pretty significant differences between them, you'll come to find that you have a lot more in common with, say, the left (specifically the anti-woke/intolerant/"dirtbag" left, whatever you wanna call it) than you previously thought. Remember, Libertarianism started on the left before it got perverted by the american right.

I think the average working democrat and the average working republican probably are very similar with their beliefs, asides moral things like Gay Marriage and Abortion.
I think they both want lower taxes on the middle class.
I think they both want a strong border not allowing in illegal aliens.
I think they both think racism, discrimination based on the colour of your skin, gender, religion etc is disgusting.
I think if you were to take a 2020 trump voter and say a 1980 or 1990 Liberal, you would find a lot a lot of things in common.

But having said that, I think that there is difference between identifying as a democrat and identifying a liberal or a progressive or a socialist etc.

If you identify as a democrat it probably means you're just a middle class person that doesn't really care about anything but don't want to see trump tweeting bullshit 24/7 and think he's a bit nuts. But if you sat down with these people and talked about do you think Trump has been a bad president, they would say no.

If you identify as a progressive liberal (if we're generalizing) - then yes I think you're a cancer of the left.

Any REAL socialist will still be in favor of lower taxes on the middle class, a strong border, anti-racism/discrimination based on the above, it just comes back to your ideas based around capitalism and how people should be paid and all that stuff as you know.

But regardless what you identify as politically, if you are currently supporting Joe Biden over Trump or supported Hillary Clinton over Trump it shows how deluded you truly are.
I think people who support Bernie would find more in common with trump supporters than Biden supporters, outside of the edgy blue haired vegan nose piercing teenagers who just want free college and want to complain that trump is a huge racist, xenophobic, homophobic, Islamophobic, misogynist, Nazi, fascist blah blah buzzword bullshit.

I have a very strong hate for both parties, let me make that extra clear. I hate politicians all round, or at least a huge majority of them.
The Republican party has the disgusting Bush family (and more but mainly them, Marco Rubio etc), and the Democrats have basically everyone else that is an aidsfest.

But what you'll see is a lot of Trump supporters aren't even conservative or at least weren't conservative before maybe 2015 or 2016. But they're sick of what the left (or I'll say democrat party not to piss Chops off) has tried to push across, they offer no change. In 2008 Obama offered a message of Hope. In 2012, you saw more people move towards the right because they saw Obama basically didn't do a lot to satisfy his voters.

2008 Obama : 69M popular vote
2012 Obama : Just under 66M popular vote

2008 Obama : 365 Electoral
2012 Obama : 332 Electoral

and I think we can all agree both people he ran against were a disgrace and would've been AWFUL presidents (maybe better than Obama but that bar is pretty low)

People are fed of what the "left" is offering, identity politics, more corruption, propaganda, all this woke-topia fake polls fake news bullshit.
That's the reality. Until the left actually offers some fucking substance, offers something people give a fuck about instead of just screaming that Trump is a xenophobic pussy grabbing racist they won't win a single fucking presidential election. And if you're offended by what I've said here, please suck your mum through a capri-sun straw.

 

[Chops]

I think the average working democrat and the average working republican probably are very similar with their beliefs, asides moral things like Gay Marriage and Abortion.
I think they both want lower taxes on the middle class.
I think they both want a strong border not allowing in illegal aliens.
I think they both think racism, discrimination based on the colour of your skin, gender, religion etc is disgusting.
I think if you were to take a 2020 trump voter and say a 1980 or 1990 Liberal, you would find a lot a lot of things in common.

...

If you identify as a democrat it probably means you're just a middle class person that doesn't really care about anything but don't want to see trump tweeting bullshit 24/7 and think he's a bit nuts. But if you sat down with these people and talked about do you think Trump has been a bad president, they would say no.

Very much. This was what I was getting at when I said most people in america don't really have coherent political beliefs, if they have strong beliefs at all. They have a few issues, typically around social/moral questions, that they vote around. But thats really it. And the blinders people have are insane.

Trump has been a bad president and I think I'd go a step further than you and say if you interrogated *why*, that dems would be hard pressed to find a reason he's been a bad president that they wouldnt then turn around and say those are reasons Obama was a good president.

Any REAL socialist will still be in favor of lower taxes on the middle class, a strong border, anti-racism/discrimination based on the above, it just comes back to your ideas based around capitalism and how people should be paid and all that stuff as you know.

I dont think its true to say any *real* socialist would support things that are not really socialist positions. Not that they couldnt support them, just that theyre not necessarily socialist. I make a solidly middle class income and I could pay more in taxes.

Socialism is about moving past capitalism. It is about the workers owning the means on production and not capitalists and because of that, seeing a more equitable distribution of surplus resources. Thats socialism. A lot of people think strong safety nets and welfare systems are what people mean by socialism but you can have those things in a capitalist society. When we talk about socialism what we are talking about is labor owning the means of production, and thus keeping more of the value they produce.

What that looks like and how it works is where the left tends to fraction. but that's socialism. Everything else like tax rates and immigration policy and the like... you can have progressive policies in a capitalist system. First the means of production, then everything else.

Until the left actually offers some fucking substance, offers something people give a fuck about instead of just screaming that Trump is a xenophobic pussy grabbing racist they won't win a single fucking presidential election. And if you're offended by what I've said here, please suck your mum through a capri-sun straw.

Actually I agree with you 100% here. Its distressing to see like 80% of the people in my country are like 1 missed paycheck from financial calamity, and the democratic party is still looking at the system and saying "this is salvageable" or that what we really need is to ensure that the 1619 Project is public curriculum! Who the fuck cares!? People are selling organs to buy insulin, wtf.

Yea, like I said. Ithink we could very easily have a good afternoon of just mocking the democrats. They suck shit.

 

[Quackbesteu]

When we talk about socialism what we are talking about is labor owning the means of production, and thus keeping more of the value they produce.

Yes I mean't this -
but I think any 'smart' socialist would obviously support stronger border to avoid illegal aliens in your country etc etc. Didn't mean it was a socialist belief, but that they SHOULD support it regardless

 

[Chops]

Yes I mean't this -
but I think any 'smart' socialist would obviously support stronger border to avoid illegal aliens in your country etc etc. Didn't mean it was a socialist belief, but that they SHOULD support it regardless

The arguments on the left around immigration are very weird. Like, one of the reasons the Scandinavian countries do so well is *very* strict immigration requirements. Its an awkward topic on the left because if you start pushing on it, folks start going full Strasserite pretty quick and thats not good. At all.

And then you also get people who are like "well thats why the left needs full international revolution" and its like... get your head out of your ass.

Honestly, its the question of immigration that started me believing that humanity really fucked up when we decided to expand beyond city states and started building nations.

 

[Devm]

Until the left actually offers some fucking substance, offers something people give a fuck about instead of just screaming that Trump is a xenophobic pussy grabbing racist they won't win a single fucking presidential election. And if you're offended by what I've said here, please suck your mum through a capri-sun straw.

Unfortunately, the vast majority of the American population, and the world for that matter, are so socially conditioned to the point that they're not even open to reason or logic that a win for Biden seems also very likely at this point. The mere inclination of voting for the republican party can get you fired, boycotted and god knows what else for no particular reason at all.

I remember watching a video before the first election about some journalists who went to an anti-trump rally and asked them why they want to stop Trump. Guess how they responded? Ohh.. uhh.. I don't know, he hates women and Mexicans you know... has too much money.. and said a billion other things that made no sense.

They also asked them if they agreed with a couple of statements from Trump, (who were actually from Clinton) and responded like; "yeah I totally agree with this, how can anyone disagree with this" etc. etc.

The USA is not even my country but I still semi-care obviously as their impact on the world is absolute. Let's see what happens

 

[Quackbesteu]

The USA is not even my country but I still semi-care obviously as their impact on the world is absolute. Let's see what happens

I really don't think Biden can win, but the way 2020 has gone, nothing would be a surprise to me.
Yeah I'm in the same boat, it impacts the whole world in multiple ways.