Wargames Nail in the Coffin Thread.
- Thread starter Neon
- Start date
Laurenti
Legend
I voted for new discord, but Idk what the old discord is and would be fine using that discord as well. Discord is good because more people check discord more frequently than xpoff, and its easier to contact people by pming them or calling them. Also allows you to set up roles in discord for bg roles and factions.
Kakakaka
Veteran
The only plausible way for wargames to happen in SL is for Guild v Guild games to happen. The issue with this is that the few guilds that do exist A. Don't like wargames very much, B. Don't have the players, or C. Don't like the toxicity that wargames are known to bring on NA. But, this also goes back to the fact that the community as a whole isn't very competitive, and the players that used to be competitive are either burnt out or went on to do better things. Having people who have direct influence over large groups of people coordinate something is much better than someone with no actual influence- especially with newer players.
tldr Guild vs Guild is the only option, and the community doesn't have guilds that are willing to set up 10v10 wargames in the current state of the bracket.
tldr Guild vs Guild is the only option, and the community doesn't have guilds that are willing to set up 10v10 wargames in the current state of the bracket.
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Chops
Soccer Dad
If you'll excuse me pontificating for a minute
Juan is absolutely correct in pointing out that the primary avenue of wargames is going to be guilds and that TF in particular doesn't have any interest in competing in wargames *as a guild* (I want to point out that we have a solid 5-6 folks who would show up to any wargame with a week or so notice). That said, SAGY might be interested and I think HWM has been eyeing a competitive team. But dont let me put words in their mouth. Any competitive gulch that took place currently would have to be like a mishmash of TF and SAGY vs HWM and ringers. It might happen, but you're pushing the limits of available and interested people.
(i think theres also a subconscious reluctance of people who missed out on GFd gear and maybe we should establish an expectation that people w/ GFd gear also build a WG toon without that gear but thats putting the cart well ahead of the horse here)
Which brings me to my larger point. I don't think the bracket is in a place where we should be trying to force wargames. At all. I love the enthusiasm and the desire to see competitive play, I really do. But we're not there yet and constantly trying then failing to establish wargames creates an environment of failure and not growth, which is self perpetuating. New people come to this site (and they do, I promise lol) see threads like "wargames nail in the coffin" and assume dead bracket, why bother.
We need to view 20s as a bracket thats growing. Just speaking from a TF perspective, we lost a chunk of activity with the new xpac (as predicted) for a variety of reasons. We're a long way from where we were at BFA when we'd have 2 separate groups rolling for 6 hours on a weekend night. Hash is pulling a HEROIC 1 man effort to get HWM up and running. SAGY has, by my count, 5 guys... which is good but thats not a team. All of the current "big" guilds need to recover. Thats going to be a process.
We need to build the bracket, too. And to do that we need to focus our efforts on recruitment. The total population of levelers in the 20-29 bracket has increased significantly over BFA levels due to the squish, so we really do have an opportune time to get more people into the bracket. One thing that would help is people advertising their guilds/this site/the discord/whatever in BGs before the gates drop. Get people interested in what we do and let them know they can do it with us. We gotta treat wargames as a reward that we're going to earn after we put in the time to grow the bracket.
Juan is absolutely correct in pointing out that the primary avenue of wargames is going to be guilds and that TF in particular doesn't have any interest in competing in wargames *as a guild* (I want to point out that we have a solid 5-6 folks who would show up to any wargame with a week or so notice). That said, SAGY might be interested and I think HWM has been eyeing a competitive team. But dont let me put words in their mouth. Any competitive gulch that took place currently would have to be like a mishmash of TF and SAGY vs HWM and ringers. It might happen, but you're pushing the limits of available and interested people.
(i think theres also a subconscious reluctance of people who missed out on GFd gear and maybe we should establish an expectation that people w/ GFd gear also build a WG toon without that gear but thats putting the cart well ahead of the horse here)
Which brings me to my larger point. I don't think the bracket is in a place where we should be trying to force wargames. At all. I love the enthusiasm and the desire to see competitive play, I really do. But we're not there yet and constantly trying then failing to establish wargames creates an environment of failure and not growth, which is self perpetuating. New people come to this site (and they do, I promise lol) see threads like "wargames nail in the coffin" and assume dead bracket, why bother.
We need to view 20s as a bracket thats growing. Just speaking from a TF perspective, we lost a chunk of activity with the new xpac (as predicted) for a variety of reasons. We're a long way from where we were at BFA when we'd have 2 separate groups rolling for 6 hours on a weekend night. Hash is pulling a HEROIC 1 man effort to get HWM up and running. SAGY has, by my count, 5 guys... which is good but thats not a team. All of the current "big" guilds need to recover. Thats going to be a process.
We need to build the bracket, too. And to do that we need to focus our efforts on recruitment. The total population of levelers in the 20-29 bracket has increased significantly over BFA levels due to the squish, so we really do have an opportune time to get more people into the bracket. One thing that would help is people advertising their guilds/this site/the discord/whatever in BGs before the gates drop. Get people interested in what we do and let them know they can do it with us. We gotta treat wargames as a reward that we're going to earn after we put in the time to grow the bracket.
toskosa
Grandfathered
Yeah good post chops and kaka, I would and always am down for wargames though 
The toxicity point is a big one as well. just thinking back to the old 39 revivals and even the bg forum wargames that use to be done in mop ( max lvl wargames with posters on the bg forums) would almost always degrade into a toxic environment. Even a somewhat chill community like we had back in mop on the bg forums couldn't maintain wargames over a long period of time, teams would always end up being poorly balanced since not all players on equal in ability.
I still have my hopes up for wargames in the future though just for fun.
The toxicity point is a big one as well. just thinking back to the old 39 revivals and even the bg forum wargames that use to be done in mop ( max lvl wargames with posters on the bg forums) would almost always degrade into a toxic environment. Even a somewhat chill community like we had back in mop on the bg forums couldn't maintain wargames over a long period of time, teams would always end up being poorly balanced since not all players on equal in ability.I still have my hopes up for wargames in the future though just for fun.
Twobuttons
Legend
I'm gonna chime in here...(shocker ik). Checking around in all of the community sub groups and main group i've noticed that rarely any of the Ally people are actually even q'ing bgs. A lot of people are still enjoying the squish and spreading their wings doing PVE type stuff. And exploring new armors and rarities. Which to me is just as important. People that are enjoying themselves will only grow the bracket even more because of so many more options we have now.
I can't answer the state of wargames at this point in time or at all. I'm always down to join some though!
tence
Legend
Bracket is still growing and in its infancy stage for this xpac. Let it grow and reassess in due time. Lots of people are still gearing, figuring out what they want to play, and exploring all the million things to do.
The summer is probably a much better time to try this again as people will be much more familiar with their characters, the bracket will be more refined, and people will have more free time. You're probably going to have better luck trying to organize arena stuff right now. I've already seen interest.
The summer is probably a much better time to try this again as people will be much more familiar with their characters, the bracket will be more refined, and people will have more free time. You're probably going to have better luck trying to organize arena stuff right now. I've already seen interest.
Laurenti
Legend
The reason I voted for a discord, either new or old (don't know the backstory), is because it is easier to gauge interested and count numbers and communicate about availability and timings than it is on xpoff.com (imo). It is also easier to individually contact people and put together teams. IMO guild vs guild isn't a great way to build a wargame community, as you have people that want to play with other people all the time, and things can become toxic or guild vs guild competition, which can be healthy but can also turn south. Ideally people have characters on both factions or at least can learn to play disc, holy, and shadow, so it is easier to get balanced games, which at the end of the day is what we are trying to get. Speaking from 59 experience, we sometimes struggled with people wanting to play with their friends that were also really good players, but then the teams weren't balanced, the losing team wasn't having fun, and games ended really early. Ideally we have balanced teams with strat and target callers on both sides and we get some really good games.
Kracks
Professional Button Pusher
Discord > thread
I think guild v guild could work if u manage to get some experienced wargamers to come in and help organize teams and help with objectives etc. those r the players that will be swapping around from team to team to help with balancing and would most likely be fine with it
I think guild v guild could work if u manage to get some experienced wargamers to come in and help organize teams and help with objectives etc. those r the players that will be swapping around from team to team to help with balancing and would most likely be fine with it
Laurenti
Legend
Yeah target callers and strat callers for sure should try to have a character on both factions. That being said, as an FC I only made a carrier on ally and have no horde twink and my month of time is up, so I might be stuck playing alliance. However, I can heal on priest as disc or holy, dps as shadow, and fc on dk.
Chops
Soccer Dad
My brain immediately went to the NBA all-star game where they got two folks who draft teams... which honestly? You might get some good games with something similar to that. Obvs youd have to adjust for faction but thats not a terrible idea at all.
Dizzen
Veteran
I think it's cool that you are still trying to make wargames happen, but I think you are probably wasting your time. I haven't touched a 20 since Shadowlands Pre Patch, but from what I understand it is still the uncompetitive and relaxed bracket that it was when I played-and there is nothing wrong with that. The only way I see wargames happening is if the 20s suddenly have a change of heart and want to play competitive games, or if a group of twinks from another, more competitive, bracket come to play. Hopefully I am wrong and you find success; if games start to happen and have any longevity I might come play some.
Laurenti
Legend
No reason that we can't get competitive games, afaik this is the only active twink bracket, as well as one of the most accessible, as it does not require a sub to play your twink and queue times are good because of levellers. Sure pug bgs aren't often going to be competitive, but pug bgs aren't competitive at endgame eitherI think it's cool that you are still trying to make wargames happen, but I think you are probably wasting your time. I haven't touched a 20 since Shadowlands Pre Patch, but from what I understand it is still the uncompetitive and relaxed bracket that it was when I played-and there is nothing wrong with that. The only way I see wargames happening is if the 20s suddenly have a change of heart and want to play competitive games, or if a group of twinks from another, more competitive, bracket come to play. Hopefully I am wrong and you find success; if games start to happen and have any longevity I might come play some.
I'm sure there is a portion of the playerbase that never wishes to step into a 10v10 wargame, and are perfectly happy smashing levellers with their premade groupqueue, but those aren't the people we are trying to find. We are trying to find people that want to play their twinks in 10v10 wargames against other similar twinks. People exist in this bracket for many reasons and come from many different backgrounds of wow pvp, be it other twink brackets, wargames in other twink brackets, endgame rbgs or arenas, or any or all of the above.And you may be right, perhaps there are like 7 of us who want to play wargames in the f2p bracket in shadowlands 2021. However, we won't know until we get everyone together who does want to play in once place, such as a discord, as opposed to randomly bumping a thread to hope that interested parties will see it, click it, and reply to it
Chops
Soccer Dad
The larger your population, the larger this group becomes. Get more twinks total and youll see an increase in twinks wanting to play wargames.
Right now you're trying to get water from a stone.
Laurenti
Legend
I agree with that statement for sure, but at the same time know that some people exist that will never want to wargame. Some people play for the purpose of farming levellers, to recreate the non-split queue, twink vs leveller power dynamic. Obviously more twinks playing the game and visiting xpoff and the 20s section of xpoff is better than not.
All it takes to get a wargame going is 20 people, we had like 15 or so sign up in the initial thread, as well as backup dps signing up on horde and alliance. It is for sure doable.