<Twenty's Plenty Arena League>

[accel]

I think we should wait and see how this tournament will play out rather than calling doom right away due to ilvl 49 / other things being allowed.

I mean, I also think that having or not having ilvl 49 will be a big factor. In situations where players are of comparable skill, it will probably be the deciding factor.

But why not just wait and see? Maybe every team will be geared. Maybe some of the lower geared teams will be able to compensate for the gear difference somehow. And if high ilvl will tend to win simply due to being high ilvl, that will be a useful data point.

Good luck to the organizers and to all participants! I will surely be watching the videos with interest no matter what the rules are.

 

[Bestworld]

I think we should wait and see how this tournament will play out rather than calling doom right away due to ilvl 49 / other things being allowed.

I mean, I also think that having or not having ilvl 49 will be a big factor. In situations where players are of comparable skill, it will probably be the deciding factor.

But why not just wait and see? Maybe every team will be geared. Maybe some of the lower geared teams will be able to compensate for the gear difference somehow. And if high ilvl will tend to win simply due to being high ilvl, that will be a useful data point.

Good luck to the organizers and to all participants! I will surely be watching the videos with interest no matter what the rules are.

Yeah, it's still gonna be a blast just to see how SL fares in an organized arena environment, no matter what the format ends up being.

 

[Chops]

i49 wep is shit compared to this: https://gyazo.com/6dd313176e23023a1761c6b09500599b

at the risk of super derailing the thread, what do your tooltips look like with both destiny/crusader up?

You can DM me if you're worried about giving away super hardcore dmg before the tourney or something like that.

 

[DexaQT]

at the risk of super derailing the thread, what do your tooltips look like with both destiny/crusader up?

You can DM me if you're worried about giving away super hardcore dmg before the tourney or something like that.

MS: 470 > 739 (outside of bg, without cooldowns)
OP: 181 > 383

Pmuch doubling my damage output.

As stated before Warrior scales the most off off mainstat, which some people dont see to know, the sword gives more strength than weapon damage DPS, making it 100% better than any other weapon available in the bracket.

The weapon buff is also twice the proc rate of crusader, so its always up when im on someone.

 

[Chops]

MS: 470 > 739 (outside of bg, without cooldowns)
OP: 181 > 383

Pmuch doubling my damage output.

As stated before Warrior scales the most off off mainstat, which some people dont see to know, the sword gives more strength than weapon damage DPS, making it 100% better than any other weapon available in the bracket.

The weapon buff is also twice the proc rate of crusader, so its always up when im on someone.

Wait... is your MS at 470 just standing around? How? Ive got more str on my warrior and an ilvl 49 and my MS tooltip is 376 when I'm not doing anything. typo?

Im looking at the OP numbers and that seems a little more like what I would have expected. My OP tooltip is 239 out of combat and 358 with crusader. An extra 25 dmg off an extra 65 strength proc seems about right.

Not sure how youre starting 94 damage higher than me on MS though. very confused. I go from 376 to 564 with crusader. I'd have expected Destiny to put you around 600/625 not 739. Are you sure thats accurate?

Either way, I'm pretty down on Destiny as "100% better than ilvl 49s" but thats a bit more dmg than I had previously thought. You're losing 4% mastery and crit (in bg) which amounts to... 14-ish dmg on overpower and 22-25 ish on MS. and an occasional lucky crit for a little more sustain? I dont hate it as much as I used to, thats for sure.

thanks.

 

[djfistingodx]

It's quite a fair point to address. The gap really isn't that small. There is a reason why heavy ilvl discrepancies has been banned in previous tournaments. The gap is also going to be bigger and bigger. The gap might not be "that big" in a 1 to 1 scenario (although I still believe it's quite noticeable, for some classes a lot more than others), but now imagine a scenario where a team has 3 ilvl 49 artifacts. The power gap is now much more substantial compared to the 1 to 1 comparison. Add ilvl 44 necks to that as well. It all starts adding up quite substantially.

Another thing to address is the overall use of GF'd items, outside of artifacts. What's the look on ilvl 59 helmets? 12 agi to cloak? AP to bracers? etc. etc.

I'm curious as to how the tests were conducted. There are quite a lot of factors in play. Comps and skill level being a huge part. Did you test with mirror comps? Were the players considered as close to equal as possible (experience)? I can also tell you with certainty that players who knows what they're doing will be able to push an advantage to limits that inexperienced players wouldn't even be able to comprehend. Being able to "extend that much more" or "live through that much more" is something experienced players will pick up rather quickly, and it's just a massive advantage in an otherwise equal matchup (comp and skill). I am 100% confident that if 2 teams knows wtf they're doing, the team with massive GF'd advantage will simply run circles around the other in a mirror matchup, which is one of the more obvious ways of assessment.

Now, this is your tournament, your show, so it should be run however you see fit. It'll be fun regardless. Fun being the keyword. Because if we were to have competition at the center, these points are extremely valid.

So it basically depends on what this is supposed to be. A "show your twink brawl (kind of powerplay)", or a "competitive tournament". You will never be able to have both.

There simply was a very good reason why past tournaments were as restrictive as they were. Even (almost especially) in the 20's bracket. Many points in the old formats has simply proven valid throughout the expansions.

If I was to entirely give my personal point of view as to how you could make a competitive environment, it would be to address the concerns made (look at past formats/rules and think about WHY they came to be), and set a reasonable date. What is meant by reasonable date? A reasonable date means that anyone who is interested will be given time to assess everything and modify, or create, a character that will fit the criteria of the tournament. This will be the only true way to have competition being the core value of a tournament.

Again, I will go back to my previous statement.
It basically all depends on what this is supposed to be. A "show your twink brawl (kind of powerplay)", or a "competitive tournament". You will never be able to have both.

I appreciate all your points, Im 1 of the guys who is organising and running this league, hopefully I can provide some insight

Firstly, testing was done in wargames with a variety of comps, we didn't get to play mirror comps but everyone who was involved in the testing are multi glads + and a few of them are 3k+ rated pvpers. We did wargames over the past week every evening and then used peoples knowledge from previous wargames/tourneys as well.

In relation to 49s/44 staff etc, Yes I agree they give an advantage, in particular if the whole team has them but I don't see that many around nowadays and we wanted to be inclusive as possible as we wanted to fill all 8 team slots and didnt want to count any1 out due to them having a 49.

The whole point of this league is to increase the awareness of 20s in general. We as a guild want to have regular wargames, 3s skirms popping and regular tourneys too as we find that bgs nowadays get stale very quickly. We want to create it as competitive as possible but we also want to be inclusive and like you say its an incredibly hard balance to get.

This is all very new to us and we may get certain things wrong but we see this event as a stepping stone for a load of stuff to come. Hope that helps you to understand some of our thought process'. We are still finalising things such as 58 helms etc so we'll announce all our final changes when we open signups but we just wanted to start alerting people to this league and hopefully create some traction/interest

 

[BANKONE]

The fact that i49s are definitely accepted but the ilvl 58 helms are on the fence definitely tells me that testing was not done in any extent. The helms pale in comparison to the artifact.

just own that it’s for 20s awareness and not even playing field.

 

[JadeFire]

Wait... is your MS at 470 just standing around? How? Ive got more str on my warrior and an ilvl 49 and my MS tooltip is 376 when I'm not doing anything. typo?

Im looking at the OP numbers and that seems a little more like what I would have expected. My OP tooltip is 239 out of combat and 358 with crusader. An extra 25 dmg off an extra 65 strength proc seems about right.

Not sure how youre starting 94 damage higher than me on MS though. very confused. I go from 376 to 564 with crusader. I'd have expected Destiny to put you around 600/625 not 739. Are you sure thats accurate?

Either way, I'm pretty down on Destiny as "100% better than ilvl 49s" but thats a bit more dmg than I had previously thought. You're losing 4% mastery and crit (in bg) which amounts to... 14-ish dmg on overpower and 22-25 ish on MS. and an occasional lucky crit for a little more sustain? I dont hate it as much as I used to, thats for sure.

thanks.

Because he is full of shit and making things up. Believe me I'm well versed.

 

[Chops]

Believe me I'm well versed.

we know

 

[Bestworld]

I appreciate all your points, Im 1 of the guys who is organising and running this league, hopefully I can provide some insight

Firstly, testing was done in wargames with a variety of comps, we didn't get to play mirror comps but everyone who was involved in the testing are multi glads + and a few of them are 3k+ rated pvpers. We did wargames over the past week every evening and then used peoples knowledge from previous wargames/tourneys as well.

In relation to 49s/44 staff etc, Yes I agree they give an advantage, in particular if the whole team has them but I don't see that many around nowadays and we wanted to be inclusive as possible as we wanted to fill all 8 team slots and didnt want to count any1 out due to them having a 49.

The whole point of this league is to increase the awareness of 20s in general. We as a guild want to have regular wargames, 3s skirms popping and regular tourneys too as we find that bgs nowadays get stale very quickly. We want to create it as competitive as possible but we also want to be inclusive and like you say its an incredibly hard balance to get.

This is all very new to us and we may get certain things wrong but we see this event as a stepping stone for a load of stuff to come. Hope that helps you to understand some of our thought process'. We are still finalising things such as 58 helms etc so we'll announce all our final changes when we open signups but we just wanted to start alerting people to this league and hopefully create some traction/interest

We're thinking the same then.

I still believe it's better to have "something" rather than "nothing", and I definitely believe it will be a blast, even with current format as a base.

For the average twink player, the gear isn't what's gonna set them apart as much as comp and arena experience anyways. It's more at the peak the differences in gear will be noticeable.

Catering for the broader audience is definitely where it's going to be at for twinks for a good while. Twinking badly needs a resurgence so that we can start having more internal twink stuff again. With any luck, the population will grow back into a substantial enough size to start filling brackets outside of vet / f2p again.

Oh, and ban Destiny. Just cuz @DexaQT got one.

 

[djfistingodx]

The fact that i49s are definitely accepted but the ilvl 58 helms are on the fence definitely tells me that testing was not done in any extent. The helms pale in comparison to the artifact.

just own that it’s for 20s awareness and not even playing field.

Changes can still be made before the league begins, its just very unlikely that there is a team of 3 who all have 49s and high arena exp to go with it.

It is primarily for 20s awareness as i stated previously, we want to revitalise the arena side of twinking. We also want to fill all 8 slots and by cutting out 49s there is a chance some people miss out too.

Like I also said its a learning curve for us, we might ban 49s in future events if they prove too strong in this one.
[doublepost=1618694358,1618694153][/doublepost]

We're thinking the same then.

I still believe it's better to have "something" rather than "nothing", and I definitely believe it will be a blast, even with current format as a base.

For the average twink player, the gear isn't what's gonna set them apart as much as comp and arena experience anyways. It's more at the peak the differences in gear will be noticeable.

Catering for the broader audience is definitely where it's going to be at for twinks for a good while. Twinking badly needs a resurgence so that we can start having more internal twink stuff again. With any luck, the population will grow back into a substantial enough size to start filling brackets outside of vet / f2p again.

Oh, and ban Destiny. Just cuz @DexaQT got one.

In an ideal world we would have made this tourney as competitive as we could but we knew that we would struggle to fill slots. People are always going to complain regardless of what the ruleset is we just wanted to try and appeal to the whole bracket.

We are doing our best to try and revive the scene and I think arena tourneys will play a big part in that. For example, the Russian Bread & Circuses tourney pulled in 80 viewers whilst being casted in Russian. The potential for the scene is there we just hope to be able to help the scene meet its potential through events such as this.

 

[toskosa]

I was on the fence about the ilovl 49 weapons but you managed to sway me, looking forward to this. oh and ban surv hunters

 

[Dpook]

I think the only way to make everyone happy is to have every one make a new toon upon the tourney and only allow TBC gear only! Nothing else! This will shut up the cry babies complaining about twinks having the best gear aka 49 ilvl and 58 ilvl. Which isn’t twinking about getting an advantage lol. But that’s non of my business.

 

[djfistingodx]

I think the only way to make everyone happy is to have every one make a new toon upon the tourney and only allow TBC gear only! Nothing else! This will shut up the cry babies complaining about twinks having the best gear aka 49 ilvl and 58 ilvl. Which isn’t twinking about getting an advantage lol. But that’s non of my business.

Whilst this could be a way for making a more competitive tourney down the line, we dont want to stop people from signing up on a toon they've put time and effort into, especially if theyre new to arena.

I'd also agree with you, twinking is about getting an advantage but in a competitive environment, arenas, just because someone played the bracket earlier shouldnt mean they have an advantage over someone new to the bracket. This league in particular though is about increasing awareness of the bracket and hopefully converting some of the bg stompers to arenas so that when people log in after a days work they have more options than just spamming random bgs which can get boring extremely quickly.

There's a reason at 60 that arenas get the tournaments and not rbgs. They're easier to follow and more fun as it is a lot more reliant on individual skill in my personal opinion.

 

[Søcks]

Hey all - We have had a final discussion in regards to the format & rules etc. - We are now ready to start accepting sign-ups for the Arena League. You can find more information on the changes etc on the updated OP

Thanks for all your feedback and cooperation. Please feel free to ask any questions!

 

[accel]

Erm... was Bestial Wrath disabled in any other tournament? (I am not saying it wasn't, I don't know, asking because this looks strange to me, but if that's something that is always disabled, fine.)

 

[djfistingodx]

Erm... was Bestial Wrath disabled in any other tournament? (I am not saying it wasn't, I don't know, asking because this looks strange to me, but if that's something that is always disabled, fine.)

Nope it has never been disabled in previous tournaments but we found in wargames it was particularly strong.

 

[Hardc0re]

There's a reason at 60 that arenas get the tournaments and not rbgs. They're easier to follow and more fun as it is a lot more reliant on individual skill in my personal opinion.

And that's why twinks usually don't like them.

They like doing 1-shot damage and post on forums that they are the world's best on XYZ class/spec.
Having to rely on actual individual skill would prove too shameful a truth for most.

 

[Søcks]

Nope it has never been disabled in previous tournaments but we found in wargames it was particularly strong.

Also, just for the record one of the main playtesters was djtrapgodx, multiple 3v3 20's tournament winner & experienced end game glad player .. who plays Hunter at 20's.. and agreed to have it banned as its busted before anyone decides to drop the unfair hammer...

 

[accel]

I will be honest, the rules on what to allow and what to exclude seem weird to me. You did provide reasoning, but it essentially was "we decided it would be better to include A (eg, ilvl 49 artifacts) and exclude B (eg, Bestial Wrath), because B is too impactful and A is obviously very impactful as well but we need to popularize the bracket" = not very persuasive. I recognize though that organizing a tournament is hard and working out a set of cohesive restrictions is very hard. So, I'll shut up and watch what will happen, let's hope it all works out. GL.