Tollo's Guide to PvP Rogue in MoP

[Tollo]

Welcome to Tollo's Guide on PvP Subtlety Rogues in MoP

In this thread, I will discuss the pros and cons of playing a rogue, talents/gems, gear, a standard rotation, a few macros, and some tips.

Now before I start, I know there will be haters on this thread, but keep in mind I am trying to give a large foothold for new and incoming rogues to the bracket and keep my biases out of the forum as much as possible. With that said, I would hope for the same respect towards this thread, my opinions, and for the people interested in playing a 70 rogue.


PROS / CONS

To start this thread I will be discussing the pros and cons of playing a subtlety rogue.
Pros:
Rediculous Damage - Especially in burst
Versatility - A rogue is very adaptable to playstyles and can handle almost any situation
Extremely Fun - Even when losing.
Less Gear Oriented Than Other Classes - If you do not have Best in Slot right off the bat, you can still play a great game.

Cons
Squishy - Rogues are extremely squishy, especially in PvE gear.
Speed - Rogues move quickly and strike quickly, and require a player who is quick on his or her feet. You must have very fast reflexes to handle the speed at which a rogue moves.
Haters - Everyone loves to hate on a rogue. Especially when you cannot down an enemy so you vanish and move on.

If after the pros and cons are weighed and you are still interested in playing a rogue, it is time to start gearing and the best place to start is how you want to play your rogue.



PLAYSTYLE

The first topic to consider when choosing a playstyle is how you are going to be using your rogue.
You need to decide how you want to play and what will be most important to you.
Each focus requires a different approach and gear

A rogue is a glass cannon and will have extremely high attack power and be able to global an expecting enemy before they know what hit them. At the same time, these rogues will be extremely squishy and cannot stay out of stealth longer than needed to down your current enemy or complete your objective. For this reason, rogues must have extremely fast reflexes and be able to think on their feet.

There are two options when it comes to gear that create the biggest debate between all rogues, but they are honestly extremely similar and it comes down to preference - One is not better than the other.



GEAR

SET 1

Gear w/ Enchants:

Head: Duplicitous Guise
Meta: 21Agility + 3% Crit Chance
Red: 20 Agility

Neck: Necklace of the Deep
Red: 20 Agility
Red: 20 Agility

Shoulder: Slayer's Shoulderpads
Yellow: 20 Agility (No Match)
Blue: 20 Agility (No Match)
Enchant: 30 Attack Power + 10 Critical Strike

Cloak: Cloak of Unforgivable Sin
Red: 20 Agility
Enchant: 22 Agility
** Optional Tinker: Flexweave Underlay

Chest: Harness of Carnal Instinct
Red: 20 Agility
Yellow: 20 Agility (No Match)
Blue: 20 Agility (No Match)
Enchant: 10 Stat

Wrist: Slayer’s Bracers
Red: 20 Agility
Enchant: 57 Agility (Leatherworking)

Gloves: Gloves of The Immortal Dusk
Red: 20 Agility
Red: 20 Agility
Tinker: Synapse Springs
Enchant: 20 Agility

Belt: Slayer’s Belt
Red: 20 Agility
Buckle: 20 Agility
*Optional Tinker: Nitro Boost

Legs: Leggings of The Immortal Night
Red: 20 Agility
Red: 20 Agility
Red: 20 Agility
Enchant: 75 Attack Power + 22 Crit (Leatherworking)

Feet: Slayer’s Boots
Red; 20 Agility
Enchant: 16 Agility

Ring 1: Hard Khorium Band
Ring 2: Band of The Eternal Champion

Trinket Options (By Priority):
Medallion of The Alliance / Horde [Only if You Are Not Human]
Blackened Naaru Sliver
Gnomish Lightning Generator (Reforged to Expertise) [Only Use This for Arena]
Sonic Booster [Only Use This For Battlegrounds]
* Sonic Booster = Gnomish Lightning.. Gnomish Lightning is not better than Sonic and visa-versa.
** Other Viable Options
Shard of Contempt (For Expertise Cap)
Madness Of The Betrayer (For Static AP Buff)

Weapons:
Main Hand: Crux Of The Apocalypse
Red: 20 Agility
Enchant: Mongoose

Off-Hand: Crux Of The Apocalypse
Red: 20 Agility
Enchant Mongoose

** Another option for this set is to use Brutal Gladiator's 4-Piece Set Bonus because the 30 energy allows for more burst. Again, it will be preference no matter what anyone says. (Keep Leggings Of The Immortal Dusk)



SET 2

Gear w/ Enchants:

Head: Brutal Gladiator’s Leather Helm
Meta: 21Agility + 3% Crit Chance
Red: 20 Agility

Neck: Necklace of the Deep
Red: 20 Agility
Red: 20 Agility

Shoulder: Brutal Gladiator’s Leather Spaulders
Red 20 Agility
Yellow: 20 Agility (No Match)
Enchant: 30 Attack Power + 10 Critical Strike

Cloak: Cloak of Unforgivable Sin
Red: 20 Agility
Enchant: 22 Agility
** Optional Tinker: Flexweave Underlay

Chest: Brutal Gladiator’s Leather Tunic
Red: 20 Agility
Yellow: 20 Agility (No Match)
Blue: 20 Agility (No Match)
Enchant: 10 Stat

Wrist: Slayer’s Bracers
Red: 20 Agility
Enchant: 57 Agility (Leatherworking)

Gloves: Brutal Gladiator’s Leather Gloves
Tinker: Synapse Springs
Enchant: 20 Agility

Belt: Don Alejandro’s Money Belt
Red: 20 Agility
Yellow: 20 Agility (No Match)
Buckle: 20 Agility
*Optional Tinker: Nitro Boost

Legs: Leggings of The Immortal Night
Red: 20 Agility
Red: 20 Agility
Red: 20 Agility
Enchant: 75 Attack Power + 22 Crit (Leatherworking)

Feet: Shadowmaster’s Boots
Red; 20 Agility
Yellow: 20 Agility (No Match)
Enchant: 16 Agility

Ring 1: Hard Khorium Band
Ring 2: Band of The Eternal Champion

Trinket Options (By Priority):
Medallion of The Alliance / Horde [Only if You Are Not Human]
Blackened Naaru Sliver
Gnomish Lightning Generator (Reforged to Expertise) [Only Use This for Arena]
Sonic Booster [Only Use This For Battlegrounds]
* Sonic Booster = Gnomish Lightning.. Gnomish Lightning is not better than Sonic and visa-versa.
** Other Viable Options
Shard of Contempt (For Expertise Cap)
Madness Of The Betrayer (For Static AP Buff)

Weapons:
Main Hand: Crux Of The Apocalypse
Red: 20 Agility
Enchant: Mongoose

Off Hand: Warglaive of Azzinoth
Enchant: Titanium Weapon Chain

Reasoning for the controversial choices:
According to Sandbox, Chardev – Leatherworking actually yields higher Attack Power and Crit Chance than Jewelcrafting by approximately 50 Attack Power and 1% Crit Chance.

Synapse is by far better for a rogue than Tazik Shocker because rogues lack spell penetration and the damage mitigation of auto-resilience (40%) makes it minimal compared to a 480 boost of agility for 10 seconds of burst.

** Other Options for Weapon
Main Hand: Crux Of The Apocalypse
Off-Hand: Blade of The Unrequited

Main Hand: Warglaive of Azzinoth
Off Hand: Warglaive of Azzinoth
* Hemo was nerfed drastically in MoP but people still enjoy spamming the hell out of it with double warglaive..

All these Gear Lists make for wonderful rogues and I think there are great rogues who play both options.

For information on leveling engineering and leatherworking, check out: THIS WEBSITE

There is also a confirmed (As of June 24, 2013) engineering leveling guide for people who do not get synapse on their first try: GO TO THIS WEBSITE



TALENTS AND GLYPHS

For a subtlety rogue, there are a few options but the most commonly used is:
[Subterfuge]
[Deadly Throw] or [Nerve Strike]
[Cheat Death]
[Cloak and Dagger]

For Major Glyphs, I recommend:
Glyph of Garrote
Glyph of Blind
** Other option is Glyph of Vanish

For Minor Glyphs, I Recommend:
Glyph of Distract
Glyph of Safe Fall or Glyph of Blurred Speed (Depending on Situation)


TIPS FOR PLAYING

A rogue’s success is based mostly around his or hers cooldowns. Never open if all your abilities are on cooldown!

Here is a standard rotation:
Preperation
Slice & Dice
Garrote
Cheap Shot
Backstab till Cheap Shot is 1 Sec till break
Eviscerate
** Changed due to public opinion!

With all of this said, a rogue’s most important job is NOT TO KILL STUFF. Yes you are good at it and yes it is necessary sometimes but a rogues true job is to SAP!!!!
A well placed sap can change the game. I have seen a rogue sap an FC’s heals and the FC continues on only to be burst on by Offense without his healer in Line of Sight.
If a healer is headed to a node in Arathi Basin, a full sap can be long enough for defense to down the attacking opponents who are needing those heals.
Sapping truly is the one of the most important aspects of playing a rogue, because who trinkets a sap? And if they did, it was an accident or reflex and now you should open and take them out because it increases the length it will take them to get to their destination.
Another great aspect of a rogue is the ability to ninja. Sometime in Warsong Gulch, a random will pick up the flag but need to pass to an FC. Those 2 seconds the flag is on the ground is enough time for you to return the flag with no combat needed. I recommend setting your “Interact With Mousover” keybind to Scroll Up/Scroll Down and find a keyboard (I use the Razer Nostromo) to double scroll. This allows you to out-click your opponents a lot more often. You can also ninja nodes in arathi basin by waiting till the opponents leave to cap a node (Be careful of other stealthers.. We will discuss how to deal with stealthies in a second).
Also, don’t open on an opponent trying to cap a node.. 9 times out of 10 he is not alone and a sap works just as well.. if after diminishing returns are up and he is still trying without anyone engaging him.. Then sap the other and open on one.
The last tip for playing a rogue in battlegrounds is to never be the first to open. YOU WILL DIE. Wait.. bide your time. Watch if other stealthies open. It’s better to be the last laugh than the one who kills an opponent but dies himself because the time spent down is valuable.



DEALING WITH STEALTHIES

My best advice when dealing with other stealthies is to be the fastest guy in the room. You must have fast reflexes. A good rogue can trinket a sap, pop vanish, and sap the opponent before the rogue/druid has any idea what happened. (Blind is helpful in this situation as well).
Here is a macro I use to deal with stealthies when you see one go into stealth or you are checking the area for stealthies before popping out of stealth for a flag/node/bomb drop.

#showtooltip
/cleartarget
/targetenemyplayer
/cast Sap; Sap

This macro, when spammed as a keybind in stealth, will detect the closest enemy so even if you can’t get your mouse over the stealthie for the split second you see him, you can sap him before he clicks on you. DO NOT BE THE ONE WHO GETS SAPPED FIRST.



ARENA

In Arena, my best advice for 3v3 is to wait for a stealthie to pop.. Spam the above macro until he does and if you find him, it’s your job to deal with him.
Make sure, as I am sure you are all aware, to create macros for Focus Blind, Focus Gouge, Focus Kick.. If you are not, I will show a sample macro..
Focusthe opponents’ healer as soon as the arena opens.
Make sure you have a cc priority established with your teammates.

Keybind these macros and you won’t have to switch targets to kick when you are dealing with the rogue but want to interrupt the heals.

#showtooltip
/Cast [@Focus] Kick; Kick

**Fill in “Kick” with whatever spell you are trying to use..
P.S. – MAKE SURE YOU KEYBIND FOCUS!!!

/Focus

My last tip, which is straight forward but not many people understand, DON’T PLAY MID/ROADS/BEACH! Yes, sapping is different, but if you just see a 2v2 going on on the road between stables and blacksmith.. don’t jump in – The objective is to win the game, NOT GET THE MOSTS KILLING BLOWS.



POISONS

The last tip I have for you all is which poisons I recommend for different places.
For Battlegrounds,
Wound Poison/ Crippling Poison
For Arenas,
Wound Poison/Mind-Numbing Poison
**Note this is not for every scenario and it is up to you to decide what is best in each scenario.
*** Deadly Poison is an option



For now, this is all I can think of. If anyone has CONSTRUCTIVE feedback for this guide, it will be appreciated. I will update for 5.4.0.

 

[Natasya]

Sorry mate, but I don't think this guide helps a lot of people on this forum. I see you put in a lot of effort - thanks for this - but there's a lot questionable about it being good at all.

Take for example your adviced gear. I'd choose 4/5 Brutal for the setbonus (130 energy) always over your adviced set, especially if you spec Subterfuge (the extra energy is pretty much gamebreaking). The extra gained stamina and resilience is pretty much a lifesaver as well, especially when playing against paladins with their random 5-11k crits.

I also would never use Preparation and then cheapshot. You can make a macro with Preparation and Slice and Dice and use that while in stealth, so you got 'SnD' up when opening. Make the same macro with Recuperate for times in need when you vanish and need some extra HP.

About the poisons: ever tried Deadly poison?

 

[Acoustic]

First of all, to above post and to OP, I'm sure you meant Premeditation, not preparation, as the first step.
Also as above poster mentioned. I'd always stick with 4p Brutal. The extra 30 energy makes for much higher burst, and just overall better energy pooling and management.
Again.. siding with above poster, ALWAYS have SnD rolling before opening. Allow for your energy to go back to full after using SnD, before opening.

Cloak and Dagger will almost always be better than Shadowstep at 70. The only reason most 90 rogues went back to Shadowstep was the nerf to CnD making it not apply to Shadow Dance, which we no longer have at 70 as of MoP.

As far as Minor Glyphs, Distract is basically a must. It is simply the most useful Minor Glyph for Rogues. The 2nd slot is a toss up between Safe Fall and Blurred Speed, and that is based on preference. These 3 are the only glyphs that have any real impact on PvP.

Glyph of Blind is a must. However Garrote has lost a lot of it's appeal with it being nerfed in 5.3. I've been having a lot of fun with Glyph of Vanish for my second slot, though Garrote is not a bad choice. I swap between the two as needed.

I'm not going to begin to pick apart your "standard rotation." It is plain wrong. Besides that, it is purely situational, but (after premed SnDing) Garrote > Ambush > Ambush, and Cheap Shot > Rupture > Ambush, are very common openers. Dump extra CPs on Eviscerate or Recup as needed.

Sap is useful but I'm not about to spill my secrets to the (mostly) garbage rogues in this bracket.

Agree poisons are situational.. blah blah yeah I'm tired of typing haha.

Good effort but I wouldn't rely on this guide for.. Well, anything. Sorry.

 

[dogform]

prem, snd, garrote, cheap shot, hemo, evis cy@

 

[Splosion]

In a crit set you OH a haste dagger, and in a haste set you OH a crit sword?

k.

 

[Acoustic]

prem, snd, garrote, cheap shot, hemo, evis cy@

This works but there's not much need to Cheap Shot after Garroting, for casters at least. This opener would work for most melee DPS and Rogues. As I said above though, there isn't any "right" opener. It is entirely situational. Although I will admit openers matter less here (at 70) than at 90, and that the burst is so high sometimes it will not even matter.

In a crit set you OH a haste dagger, and in a haste set you OH a crit sword?

k.

His weapon suggestions are totally off haha. Crux MH, Blade of the Unrequited OH remains the top Dagger weapon setup for Sub, whereas double Glaives are a close second if you enjoy hemo spamming haha. (Or if you aren't unlucky like me and don't have 51 runs and counting in BT with no OffHand drop...)

 

[Splosion]

I could point out Inherited Insignia of the Horde - Item - World of Warcraft vs Medallion of the Horde - Item - World of Warcraft, but that'd be too much.

 

[Tollo]

I agree the 30 energy is great but I personally find the static ap buffs very helpful.. I guess it again comes down to preference. I will make a note that it can be substituted with Brut 4p.. Thanks for not completely tearing me apart!
Also, yes - I was looking for inherited insignia but couldn't find the 2min CD version

Cheers! ^-^

 

[Tollo]

Editted with all opinions.. I am not going to get into a weapons debate on this thread. It is not what it is for.. It is for people to have a good foothold to start their rogue.. They can make decisions on gear and weapons depending on play style..

 

[Dodgeystyle]

Sorry to break it to you guys, but this is BiS for MH and OH.

 

[Dodgeystyle]

Cloak and Dagger will almost always be better than Shadowstep at 70.

The Shadowstep jukes tho.

 

[Acoustic]

The Shadowstep jukes tho.

I never said Shadowstep wasn't fun or useful, I just personally believe CnD is overall more useful than ShS at 70. Both have their place, and like most everything with Rogues, it's mostly based on the situation and preference.

 

[Tollo]

...like most everything with Rogues, it's mostly based on the situation and preference.

Nuff said.

 

[Splosion]

Or if you aren't unlucky like me and don't have 51 runs and counting in BT with no OffHand drop...

Tamako @ Draenor - Community - World of Warcraft

Two runs \o/

 

[Vapriest]

Actually shadowstep is superior to cloak and dagger now, especially since it's usable on friendly targets. With no dance you need resets to set up any real pressure.

Edit: Though i guess for bgs maybe cloak and dagger is superior.

 

[Acoustic]

Tamako @ Draenor - Community - World of Warcraft

Two runs \o/

-_____________________________________-

Actually shadowstep is superior to cloak and dagger now, especially since it's usable on friendly targets. With no dance you need resets to set up any real pressure.

Edit: Though i guess for bgs maybe cloak and dagger is superior.

I play nelf so I have an extra reset making CnD even more useful, and like I said, ShS has plenty of amazing uses, especially in arena for kicks/jukes.
Yes CnD requires a reset but honestly 70 arenas are over so fast, I still prefer CnD over ShS. Like I said both have their uses and downsides, and I swap between the two as needed, as should any experienced rogue. Couldn't really say either is "better."

 

[Tollo]

Motion to have this moved to guide section?

 

[Acoustic]

Motion to have this moved to guide section?

Not a chance lol. Good effort though.