the state of 19 pvp

[Juicie]

I made a post over a week ago informing everyone that the hunter changes regarding ammo had been pushed back to 3.1. Just now I happened to notice Drayner's new post on the main page about how hunter's are just too overpowered. Hunter's have always been the most OP class at 19. With the introduction of the monkey glyph hunter's have reached a new absurdness in the 19 bracket.



The state of 19 pvp is not solid right now, and I would agree with Drayner that things are beginning to spin out of control. In light of this, we should all take a very serious look at what will happen when 19 hunter dps nearly triples because of the upcoming changes in 3.1. All fun goes out the window here. The arrows hunter's use at 19 now are 3.5 dps and the ones that every hunter will be using come 3.1, because the limited 200 that you can get become infinite, have a dps of 9.5. This is nearly triple the damage. The state of 19 pvp is at stake here. Something needs to be done.



Post your thoughts, opinions, and possible options for solving this looming problem.



No flaming please and no arguing. Especially no hunter's coming on here and trying to explain how this change isn't a complete gamebreaker.

 

[Tetox]

ok before i make my post i would like to say this as a disclaimer so im not flamed: I HATE FUCKING HUNTERS....in one of those "ur god, who would u strike down" scenarios, i would kill the programmer who had the idea for the hunter class...they are fucking so imba its not even funny, so many baddies crutch off that class it makes me think about quitting wow



that being said lol....+6 dps to their arrows isnt gona fucking matter...most hunters use Venomstrike...thats a 2.4 speed, their arrows will now hit +14.4 harder per shot....thats not fucking much, this really isnt gona be a big deal, u probably wont notice it unless u play a hunter...i hate to burst ur bubble, but compared to CA, AotM Glyph and general hunter imba-ness...this is nothing



the real problem is this: http://twinkinfo.com/forums/f4/mana-regen-nerf-t1098/



note: i play a priest...this hunter change will piss me off, but look at how hard they just nerfed all healer mana sets...healers will be oom when hunters are still at 75%...this blows

 

[Druiddroid]

39 = the oasis where hunters aren't as overpowered as the surrounding brackets. wewt.



the main reason why i don't play 29 or 19 anymore is because of hunters. i had a 'stamina stacked' 1300 health, budget twink, level 19 hunter that could kite 5 people for 20 minutes. it was so easy. between a 41 yard range CC, wingclipping rogues that tried to get me in stealth, a charging pet (back in the day when boars were good), a 600 mana pool that lasted forever, scare beast (against other hunter pets), and track humanoids, i could have a terrible team to work with and still do well flag carrying/kiting people.



at 29, while i didn't have a hunter, my druid was often a victim of the hunter's incredible strength. so many people have hunters there. even if i tried to moonfire them out of cheetah, they could just take the daze and keep chasing me until i had to turn a corner that they could cut off. and it didn't help that i could have 3+ hunters chasing me all at the same time, while my own team's hunters farm midfield and don't help me, the guy actually playing WSG.



in short, QQ @ hunters that suck.

 

[whitekush]

ummm



i wanna roll a 39 for that exact reason..

after my shammy is done (wewt for being funded!)

ill be rolling a 39 twink.. most likely a priest (they're op too!)

and uhh.. *sigh* i still need to finish that DK for when the DK hype calms down and real 59 twinks come out.

 

[Pillowfist]

The second that the glyphs became common knowledge amongst twinks it spelled the end of any melee class in the 19 bracket ( with the possible exception of the pally or druid) Then with the popularity of BoAs the new pet abilities came a whole new flodd of hunter "twinks" in it for one reason, to pug and mop the florr with anything that moved. Pallys get gang attacked so blessings are useless druids can only shapeshift so much to get away from wing clip, tendon rip, concussive shots, webs and charges its becoming less and less fun to play and thats the reason i started twinking, good spirited competition with skilled players. Not to be camped over and over by over powered under experianced hacks with more gold the class.

 

[Vinta]

My 19 twink's a hunter, and yeah, he's pretty much all that and a freshly opened bag of chips cuz he owns all teh nubs cuz he's teh godz of PVP and ur all just jeelus of hunter skill cuz we're all really really good an ur all just bad

~_^

*hopes you sense the sarcasm cuz it's as thick as bomb shelter walls*



other then that i think anything that heals is pretty OP at this or any level, ESPECIALLY PALLYS



but i suppose i'm biased, so w/e

 

[Juicie]

ok before i make my post i would like to say this as a disclaimer so im not flamed: I HATE FUCKING HUNTERS....in one of those "ur god, who would u strike down" scenarios, i would kill the programmer who had the idea for the hunter class...they are fucking so imba its not even funny, so many baddies crutch off that class it makes me think about quitting wow



that being said lol....+6 dps to their arrows isnt gona fucking matter...most hunters use Venomstrike...thats a 2.4 speed, their arrows will now hit +14.4 harder per shot....thats not fucking much, this really isnt gona be a big deal, u probably wont notice it unless u play a hunter...i hate to burst ur bubble, but compared to CA, AotM Glyph and general hunter imba-ness...this is nothing



the real problem is this: http://twinkinfo.com/forums/f4/mana-regen-nerf-t1098/



note: i play a priest...this hunter change will piss me off, but look at how hard they just nerfed all healer mana sets...healers will be oom when hunters are still at 75%...this blows

It may be your opinion that this change is, as you so eloquently put it, "not that fucking much." But in reality, we all know triple the damage is quite the opposite of that. Please post intelligent responses from now on like everyone else.

 

[Druiddroid]

It may be your opinion that this change is, as you so eloquently put it, "not that fucking much." But in reality, we all know triple the damage is quite the opposite of that. Please post intelligent responses from now on like everyone else.

it's not triple the damage.



stop insulting people, we're human, just like you. noone's perfect, and the best you can ask for is ATTEMPTS at intelligent posts.



it's an increase of 6 DPS. this means with 3.00 speed, white shots are going to do (assumably) 18 more damage.

 

[Vinta]

it's not triple the damage.



stop insulting people, we're human, just like you. noone's perfect, and the best you can ask for is ATTEMPTS at intelligent posts.



it's an increase of 6 DPS. this means with 3.00 speed, white shots are going to do (assumably) 18 more damage.

now THAT'S an intelligent post XD

 

[Zuty]

This is all coming from someone who doesn't play anymore, so bear with me.



What makes them so OP before this buff in DMG? Now I thought that Hunters at 19 were good when I played (Long ... Long ago) and some were borderline OP, but Rogues were the most overused and OP class to play at 19. It really became an issue when people all started playing Rogues and it just caused a huge flood in the class.



So is this whole Hunter craze going to eventually fade away and in a month or two from now we will hear how OP and overused [CLASS] will be? Telling me that Hunters are getting a slight DPS buff in the next patch is a good start for what info I am looking for, but I really need more then just 'Spiders/Hyenas are OP and they can Kite us around.' I understand most classes are limited in range, (even then the ones that can do range do almost nothing compared to Hunters ranged damage) but I just feel like there as to be a way around it.



Eventually someone will find this OP piece of gear or a glyph that combos well with their talents and everyone will hop aboard that train and now we have a new infestation of twinks. Its the same in any gaming market; someone finds a good combo and suddenly everyone is all over it while a few of us try and be different and look into other combos, which eventually is discovered and now everyone hopes back onto that bandwagon.



But that is just what I think. It's what motivates me to get this damn server up and running so I can start testing out new ideas for classes. Spending all day on WoWHead and Warcrafter making up specs and gear lists gets boring when you can't play them.



~Zuty

 

[Druiddroid]

hunters have been a long time overpowered class at 19, from my experience.



rogues are just too easy to kite. i guess back in the day, most people keyboard turned so it wasn't as easy to kite a rogue. well, i suppose most of the current infestation of hunters click, but they can still easily wingclip a rogue.

 

[Rayekk]

As a rogue in the 19's I can say the hunter issue is real, but not insurmountable. As with most caster types, it’s all about getting out of range ASAP. Getting wingclipped as a rogue shouldn’t happen if you use your trinket, evasion and sprint correctly (and if you’re a Gnome, escape artist). The real “hunter issue” I’ve been seeing on Whirlwind is GY farming… I’ve seen two twink hunters (both sides) completely stem back the apposing forces as they rez (Nets/hard-hitting shots). Maybe something to think about would be a hit penalty the further way a target is?



Not that Blizzard is listening!

 

[Zuty]

I do remember Hunters camping GYs and their flag room (sometime our flagroom, thats when you know it was game) by putting their pets on auto-attack and then having the pet stay next to the GY or flag. The hunter would then get to range and get ready to shoot. (or if your a NE, Shadowmeld and then get ready to shoot) So are Hunter pets really that OP now? I know Hyenas slow you, Spiders web you, and Boars charge/stun you. (or did when I played) So is that were the problem truely lies? I know in a previous post someone said that you get Concussed, Webed and then Concussed again (Maybe WingCliped somewhere in between). So is it more of an abuse with slowing effects?



~Zuty

 

[Juicie]

it's not triple the damage.



stop insulting people, we're human, just like you. noone's perfect, and the best you can ask for is ATTEMPTS at intelligent posts.



it's an increase of 6 DPS. this means with 3.00 speed, white shots are going to do (assumably) 18 more damage.

the arrows almost triple in dmg from 3.5 to 9.5 did you not read the postings? math is hard.

 

[Druiddroid]

the arrows almost triple in dmg from 3.5 to 9.5 did you not read the postings? math is hard.

you said

The state of 19 pvp is not solid right now, and I would agree with Drayner that things are beginning to spin out of control. In light of this, we should all take a very serious look at what will happen when 19 hunter dps nearly triples because of the upcoming changes in 3.1.

then

The arrows hunter's use at 19 now are 3.5 dps and the ones that every hunter will be using come 3.1, because the limited 200 that you can get become infinite, have a dps of 9.5. This is nearly triple the damage.

it increases a hunter's dps by 6.



9.5 DPS - 3.5 DPS = 6 DPS.



in terms of the arrow dps, yes it nearly triples, as in the last quote. but in terms of total dps, it goes up by 6. the middle quote is false.



btw i am only basing this data off of your posts, so these are all assumptions.



i'd also love it if you cut the elitist attitude

 

[elocon]

Also if we talk about the "average" hunter twink (that everyone seems to flame at) they dont gonna know you can get this arrows(/bullets).

This change dont gonna come 3.1 and blizz will prob make arrows(/bullets) bop.

 

[yasueh]

The Venomstrike bow does 26-50 damage at 2.40 speed (before modifiers from stats/enchants).



Arrows add to that damage, so it's going from 29.5-53.5 up to 35.5-59.5.



That is nowhere near tripling damage.

 

[Cookíes]

Hunters...Hunters...FUCKING HUNTERS.



Countless amounts of vent recordings of myself..Raging about those god damn cock lick snatch grabbing hunters...

 

[shanker]

in 19 bracket hunters for the last 2 years have always been the deciding factor on who wins all the way to 59 bracket.



but with wotlk in 19 bracket, hunters are really over the top now. pets have abilities that weren't present in 19 bracket before. hogs used to be the top pet for their charge and short stun. now spiders have nets, hyenas have a 6sec 50% slow, cats stealth a feature that used to start in 39+ brackets.



GotM with the constant procing, and procing from hits that occur from behind. shouldn't happen according to blizz, attacks from behind can't be dodged, parried or blocked. yet GotM is procing. my 19 hunter was running a flag, i got 3 procs on GotM from enemy players hitting me from behind. i would say it is bugged. i have a 59 hunter and GotM procs when he is not in monkey aspect and is on a mount.



in 19 bracket hunters have way too many slow/daze/stuns compared to any other class. wingclip, concussive shots, and new pet abilities.



rogues really don't stand a chance, you may get lucky on one twink hunter by having your CD's up on PVP trinket, AGM, sprint, swiftness potion, and gouge, but overall a hunter is a mountain to overcome. once your CDs are blown you are hunter candy for the next 2-15 minutes of the BG.



i have recently benched my 19 rogue and play my 19 hunter. i only use my rogue in premades or when my side isn't rolling new undergeared players.



as a horde hunter, the only alliance class/race other than another hunter is NE warriors which are rare. with shadowmeld they are able to break combat, charge and once up close maintain hamstring and thunderclap to keep me slowed and in melee range.



in 29 pvp i have a rogue, warrior, and new ret-palidan. after patch 2.3 warriors slows were nerfed so bad, and hunters traps were buffed, my warrior could no longer really deal with one, so he is a 29 twink bank alt since Nov-2007. with hunters having disengage at 29....wouldn't even have a chance. my rogue does well against hunters due to crippling poison, and my hitting sprint or vanishing when they disengage. GotM seems to be less of a issue when they have crippling poison on them. my paly is to new yet only 1 BG with her.



prior to WOTLK, i had a lame 29 twink hunter with mild enchants and he did real well. i took him to 39 and 49, after dealing with locks in 39 i bailed, that is definitely a bracket they shine in. in 49 ench-shammies were seriously OP.

i stopped in 59 bracket. in 59 bracket i was pleased. he is full BC bandit gear equipped, with enchants and clefthide leg armor. don't think the extra 100hp and 2 agi would matter if i upgraded.



after WOTLK, from 59+ hunters are worthless till about 80, and the demand for a hunter will be in raids for their ranged DPS. but in PVP from 58 thru 79 they are really weak to DKs, palidans (any spec) wipe hunters like candy.



i just did my third respec to the Surv-spec. i did some 59 PVP this past weekend actually did a lot better against DK's but still died to much. palidans nothing changed, getting stunned and wiped within 2-3 hits/spells seals



what really surprized me in 59 bracket were locks and fire-mages after the WOTLK. fire-mage would blink in freeze me inplace, dragons breath, and 2 spells BOOM i was dead. over and over, nothing i could do. i was amazed to see this mage dropping DKs like this too, so that made me happy. demo-locks pets were stunning me, then lock fear, dots, life drain, fear life-drain, fear life drain, i'm dead. i was like wow, if my CD wasn't blown on 5 min PVP trinket, would that really have made a difference.? probably not.



sorry about the long run-on, to make a long story short, after WOTLK 19 bracket IMO is where hunters are the most OP, followed by 29 bracket....after than it get worse for them.

 

[Ramune]

I know in a previous post someone said that you get Concussed, Webed and then Concussed again (Maybe WingCliped somewhere in between). So is it more of an abuse with slowing effects?



~Zuty

basically the amount of snares they can throw + their ability to do an insane amount of DPS at range while moving around = insane kiting ability with little to no skill involved.