Should guides contain grandfathered items?

[Grabco]

I don't think a twink guide should contain grandfathered items but simply the best most up to date items currently available. If you have grandfathered items chances are you know what you are doing and don't really need a guide.



However, I think listing grandfathered gear that is still heavily used is a good idea but not part of the main guide.

 

[Dcm]

I'd think that separate lists should be used for old players and new players. Maybe there's old players comming back that have all this GF'd gear but they aren't really sure if it's BiS or not because they probably won't think it's up to date.



And of course it should be mentioned that you cannot obtain such items anymore.

 

[Rivfader]

Grandfathered items should be included when they are BiS for the reason DCM posted. However, alternatives should be included as well.

 

[Grabco]

I still think that separate lists are redundant, especially if you are making entirely different gear lists. You make a good point about returning players but I can only think of a few grandfathered slots on any character that are BIS and those slots are and could be easily replaced by the new gear.



How long are we going to make BIS guides with gear from 3-4 years ago that can no longer be obtained? My point is to make the guide with the most recent up to date gear and as a sub section include the still usable grandfathered stuff

 

[Pizza]

Guides should not include grandfathered gear. I will be removing grandfathered gear from my guide. Here's the two reasons why I believe they shouldn't.



1) Players with grandfathered gear shouldn't need a gear guide outside of new items that exist. They should be able to tell that certain grandfathered gear is better by simply looking at the stats.

2) Players without grandfathered gear will only get discouraged if they see pieces they can't obtain.

 

[Disco]

Guides should not include grandfathered gear. I will be removing grandfathered gear from my guide. Here's the two reasons why I believe they shouldn't.



1) Players with grandfathered gear shouldn't need a gear guide outside of new items that exist. They should be able to tell that certain grandfathered gear is better by simply looking at the stats.

2) Players without grandfathered gear will only get discouraged if they see pieces they can't obtain.

I completely agree. The second point you raised could be quite important.

 

[Enno]

I cry every time I think about Jutebraid and especially Inferno for resto. Don't hurt my feelings.

 

[Bankbeauty]

I cry every time I think about Jutebraid and especially Inferno for resto. Don't hurt my feelings.

Especially since inferno's enchant nerf?

 

[Zatox]

I cry every time I think about Jutebraid and especially Inferno for resto. Don't hurt my feelings.

Inferno with 4stats lolwhat

 

[Waaag]

i like the guides that have the top 3 items for each slot. not everyone can get the boa's not because of the price but the lack of a main. and we all should want new tinks to be able to qwest or get a sachel to hurry them into wsg.

 

[Kore nametooshort]

Grandfathered items should be included when they are BiS for the reason DCM posted. However, alternatives should be included as well.

I agree. All items should be included, though it should be made perfectly clear which items are grandfathered, which are attainable and which are attainable by a certain faction. I do understand that anyone looking to a guide should be new to the class/bracket, but it feels incomplete to me without everything. A player who had grandfathered gear but has come back for cataclysm could easily be reading the guide looking for advice, or a full time ret paladin during wotlk might have come back and be interested in going holy. He could easily have got the grandfathered gear if he was sensible, but not know what to do with it.

Players without grandfathered gear will only get discouraged if they see pieces they can't obtain.

This is a valid point, but so is a guide recommending double AGM or 225 herbalism. If a player is not deterred by that then they aren't so likely to be dissuaded by losing out on grandfathered gear. In the end they will always find out anyway. On the other hand it might have the opposite effect. For example, a level 19 holy paladin doesn't have much grandfathered gear in it's primary sets, just Jutebraid iirc. A new player might assume that he is missing out on a lot of stats if he doesn't know what is grandfathered, whereas in reality it is just 5 stam.





Not to sound arrogant at all, but this decision does ultimately lie with myself and the rest of the staff. While I cannot really require you to include anything in your guides it will count against said guide when it goes up for review if it does not include various pieces of information. I do appreciate that you create guides for the benefit of others not yourself, I really do and we greatly appreciate all the work you put into them, but promoting guides I feel are incomplete is not something I'm terribly comfortable with.



If you do not wish to include grandfathered gear in your guide then that is fine, but do make it clear that you have not included it. If they're interested they can go to the relevant forum and ask. My recommendation, however, is that you include it.



Edit:

i like the guides that have the top 3 items for each slot. not everyone can get the boa's not because of the price but the lack of a main. and we all should want new tinks to be able to qwest or get a sachel to hurry them into wsg.

"top three" seems a bit irrelevant to me. I feel that a guide should include the best item that is attainable by anyone and all items that are better than it. This means that it will give advice to everyone, rather than just those who can afford faction changes, have access to heirlooms, have grandfathered items or items that are prohibitively rare/expensive.

 

[ganksta]

Can't remember whos guide it is although i think it's Pizza's but they have a section for older twinks WITH gfed gear and a section for new twinks WITHOUT gfed gear, i always like that. But, Kore said it best.

 

[Enno]

Maybe have the top BoA / non BoA choices and then in italics/asterisk note the use of GF'd items when applicable.

 

[Llare]

1) Players with grandfathered gear shouldn't need a gear guide outside of new items that exist. They should be able to tell that certain grandfathered gear is better by simply looking at the stats.

It's the 19 Bracket, people follow each other like sheep.

2) Players without grandfathered gear will only get discouraged if they see pieces they can't obtain.

What happens when the people without BoAs read lists containing BoA BiSs; I know there's not really an excuse for people to not have them, but some people still don't.



It's the same principle.



Have alternatives showing:



- BoA+Grandfathered

- Non BoA+Grandfathered

- BoA+Non Grandfathered

- Non BoA+Non Grandfathered



Doesn't even have to be a separate list for each one, just make sure each is represented.



I suggest a Twink Info mandatory statement for each guide, (copy pasta'd from a sticky in the Guides forum, no one reads stickies anymore) that explains what Grandfathered items are and that you don't need them to play in 4.1.



You can still be BiS in 4.1, without Grandfathered items. Best in slot meaning the best items YOU can possibly get for that slot.



Grandfathered items don't qualify for people without them.

 

[Poket]

I think that GF'd Items, that alot of u says, should be separated from those that u could obtain now.



Still, in my eyes, a guide often open up my mind to items that is good for each slot, instead of going to wowhead ( or w/e) to find items that u can get at 19. And then u freely choose what u should use, but still keep in mind what the poster thougt was the best choice.

 

[Grabco]

Can't remember whos guide it is although i think it's Pizza's but they have a section for older twinks WITH gfed gear and a section for new twinks WITHOUT gfed gear, i always like that. But, Kore said it best.

That's Eliot's out of date Paladin Guide. I guess a guide should just teach people what they need to think about when putting a gear set together and then provide them with a list of the best pieces available (or grandfathered for the older twinks) for each slot. Along with a little commentary.