rubikz
Legend
i understand how stat weights work. you failed to properly explain how you determined your stat weights to be correct
k sounds legit
Short Guide on Gearing
- Thread starter bigmoran
- Start date
i understand how stat weights work. you failed to properly explain how you determined your stat weights to be correct
k sounds legit
BACKPEDDLE
Legend
I'm even more confused now that I can actually read the spreadsheet
Snowjobs
Fluffy
The very first column (average multiplier) is the easiest way I have found to represent the effectiveness of a group of spells. It’s what you multiply a spells %spellpower by to find out its average effective healing. It factors in the nature of a spell likeWhether it’s a dot or a direct damage spell as well as any other factors like “ double the usual crit chance” or “crit chance increased by 60% “ or even “ crits give a living seed for 50% of amount healed”. Now not all spells are the same. Rejuvenation benefits more from haste than healing touch or regrowth does so we have to separate all the spells that behave differently. The groups I did were
Rejuvenation & natures ward
Regrowth glyphed
Regrowth unglyphed
Healing touch
Lifebloom glyphed
Lifebloom unglyphed
As the formula for their multipliers were all different.
I would paste in a formula here for one to use as an example but it’s easier to just put up a download link for the sheet.
>>>> https://www.mediafire.com/?qjd97ubyjq1x93a <<<<
Disclaimers : only works for casters. Does not work for fire mage ( have a custom one for that ).
The most basic formula for the average multiplier is Sp*(.5*crit)*(haste)*(versa)*(.3*multistrike)
Such that 10% crit = 1.10 or 5% crit = 1.05
That assumes that its a plain old cast spell like flash of light with no passive bonuses that effect secondary stats.
Throw in the passives, and make it so u increase the values by rating and not % and things get a lil bit fun.
Tldr: idk if any of that helped you understand how I come up with the numbers or the math behind it all. Feel free to look at the spreadsheet yourself and dink around with it (look at the formulas), maybe that will help.
rubikz
Legend
you can't calculate average effective healing that way. spells have different spellpower coefficients based on their cast time that you do not account for anywhere (see Spell power coefficient - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft)
even assuming you had the correct average effective healing for each spell, this is not particularly useful information since 1% haste, 1% crit, and 1% multistrike all take different amounts of secondary stat to achieve. it's particularly easy to break the "formula" your entire spreadsheet is based upon:
1% haste at 39 is 6.72 haste rating, whereas 1% crit at 39 is 5.56 crit rating. 1% versatility damage at 39 is ~ 10 versatility (depending on how much versatility you have). according to your formula,
2% crit, 1% haste, and 1% versatility all have the same effectiveness according to your formula (11 crit rating = 6.72 haste rating ~ 10 versatility). this looks nothing like the stat weights you posted earlier, so i'm confused where you got those stat weights:
also, you have an entire set of stat weights "while getting trained" that you posted earlier with no explanation whatsoever, not to mention you have a ton of columns that are all 1's and 0's in the spreadsheet that seem completely trivial.
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BACKPEDDLE
Legend
there's only two types of stat priorities
"are you getting trained"
"are you not getting trained"
Snowjobs
Fluffy
Yes you can and OFC they have different SPC's but in a given group they behave the same mechanicaly so you can figure it out for a certain class and group with given passives. note i said average effective healing (this includes everything including haste that comes into play before you divide by the cast time to find the average effective healing per second)
Well no shit. thats why theres a rating column that then converts into a % and each of the correct conversion factors is in there. Also these numbers are for IN BGS where the stat weights are different then what you just posted and also i can tell that those numbers are wrong as you get more haste % per rating than you do % crit per rating on every class (before factoring passives) . You probably didn't factor in the 5% base crit when you came up with that number.
The formula i gave doesn't look like the stat ratios i posted because of passives ( which i stated in the the post you quoted) living seed makes crit more effective . the hot nature of certain spells makes haste more beneficial to them, the 60% base crit to regrowth reduces the benefit of crit a little . A lot of stuff goes into each individual spell and its weighting . Thats why i called it "the most basic formula"
The reason there is a set of starts for when you are getting "trained" is because then the damage reduction of versatility comes into play making the stat more valuable.
I will gladly explain anything further if you have any more questions but the stat ratios in the OP are correct.
rubikz
Legend
average effective healing isn't average effective healing if you ignore spellpower coefficients.
spells like regrowth / living seed's average effective healing will obviously be affected by regrowth's 30% spellpower coefficient and should be factored in if you want to model crit on regrowth casts
you need to explain what you mean by "in a given group they behave the same mechanicaly"
i equipped and unequipped a piece of gear with 8 crit rating and checked the difference in crit. try it yourself
if you aren't going to be specific about your math, then there's no reason to expect people to trust you.
saying stuff like "haste is better for hots" and "versatility adds damage reduction making it better" is not particularly useful information when you are trying to convince people that the 20 columns in your spreadsheet that are full of 0's resulted in your conclusion that 1 intellect = 2.0 to 2.4 haste. there is too much yellow tape / unexplained math for others to get meaningful stat weights themselves from your spreadsheet.
also you completely forgot about cenarion ward so you might want to redo all your calculations again, whatever they were
Snowjobs
Fluffy
Alrighty lets just start over because every time I quote you then you quote my quote and I quote your quote something gets lost and eventually there is un-necessary confusion.
If you have any questions just say “I don’t think you can go to from 2) to 3) the way you did”
Lets start at the beginning. Almost all spells act as follows at the broadest view.
1)
SP * SPC * Secondary Stat Benefits = AEH
Where
Sp= Spellpower
SPC= SPellpower coefficient
AEH= Average Effective Heal= The total healing of a single spell after the effects of all secondary’s are included
Now lets take it a step deeper
2)
SP*SPC*CM*HM*MM*VM=AEH
CM=Crit Multiplier = (1+.5*%C) due to the reduced effect of crit in pvp
HM=Haste Multiplier = (1+%H)^N N is representative of the fraction of the spell that benefits from haste and it usually ranges from 1 to 2 for spells. I will go into this later but bare with me for now.
MM= Multistrike Multiplier = (1+.3*%M) due to reduced Ms effect in pvp
VM= Versatility Multiplier = (1+.3*%V)
Now that would be all if we didn’t have any passives in the game making things more tricky to calculate so lets look at each of the multipliers individually.
The crit Multiplier can be additionally modified the following ways to account for the following passives.
For the effect of living seed
CM=(1+(.5+.75)*%C) .5 base plus .75 because it procs for 50% of a crit which is 1.5*original amount
The effect of Regrowth’s base crit
CM=(1+.5*(.6+%C))
Holy paladins double crit chance on holy shock
CM=(1+.5*2*%C)
Those are just some of the ways it can be modified but we will stick to those for now.
Now onto the Haste Multiplier
HM=(1+%H)^N
Time to address the N. Normal Spells only have their cast time reduced by haste so they only benefit ONCE from the stat. HOTS on the other hand have their total healing increased by haste as well as the GCD or cast time reduced so they benefit TWICE. If a spell benefits Twice then N=2 if it benefits once then N=1. In special cases (regrowth and lifebloom) where haste reduces cast time but only increases a portion of the healing done you will come up with a fraction to add to 1. It will be the SPC of the hot portion divided by the total SPC.
Now the multiplier can be modified further by things like a priests Borrowed Time in which caste the HM would be
HM=(1+1.4*%H)^N
On to Multistrike and Versatility
Druids have no passives or spells that are specifically effected by Multistrike or Versatility (That’s why Their Stat ratio is a single number not a range like haste or Crit)
>>>>>>>
Onward to the Spreadsheet and the Theory behind it. (The Total Multiplier and Grouping shenanigans)
Lets look at our second broadest formula for AEH
SP*SPC*CM*HM*MM*VM=AEH
To find the Stat weightings we will First Start with a base, lets say 300 SP, 5% Crit (base crit), and no other stats.
We will now add some SP to the Base ( I chose 10 in the sheet so lets go with that for now)
310 Sp and 5% Crit . We plug those values into our formula and get a certain value.
In this case 310*SPC*1.025*1*1*1
Now we can want to find a amount of Crit that will give the same result. (that lets us say 1int = 4.3 crit or what ever the particular # is) The resulting equation is
310*SPC*1.025*1*1*1=300*SPC*(1+.5*(.05+?))*1*1*1
We then see that we can divide both sides by the SPC and thus Remove it from the calculations
All that really matters is SP and the various Secondary Multipliers (after you have tweaked them due to passives and what not)
So I use the term “Total Multiplier” that is everything that goes into a spell Besides it’s SPC.
Why do this ? Because now we can group up spells together and it makes making spreadsheets way easier.
If you use the Total multiplier you can find stat values like I just described 7 or so lines above. And that’s how I find the values I Posted earlier. Haste and crit are a range because some of the spells benefit differently from them where as multi and vers effect all druid abilities the same . I got class now though so I gota put this on park for now . Ask any more questions if you like.
also cenarion ward behaves the same as rejuve so im gucci
Fancy
Veteran
You'all are just confusing them - make it simple int/str/agi >> haste/crit/vers/whatever its like a 4-1 ratio although its prob more like a 3-1 but for say rogs you might want haste for lower cds = more cheap-shots and crap or maybe you want vers for more burst and defensiveness its all your choice. Just do be stupid and stack that crap where you output nothing and think you are doing something. Most sets have been determined bis through "damage testing" in situations which is whatever your preference is. I could do it by math but for some reason some people think that's like some sort of weird magic no one can understand.
Just don't gear retardedly
Just don't gear retardedly
Eclipsis
Grandfathered
Ok this thread got complicated fast and I think fancy has a point. Gearing is your own choice and it should suit your own goals and playstyle. As Moran said you should always aim to maximise your primary stat within reason. And if you were to go into depth with that you'd do something along the lines of fluffys work to find what each stat is worth comparatively and gear according to that.
Frankly as long as you aim to keep your primary stat high what your secondaries end up is pretty much playstyle dependant. Pick a health pool you're happy with and get to it. Then start maximising your primary stat. The only thing you can do wrong is be inefficient or 'hypocritical' in choosing items by ending up in a set that has less of a stat you value because you didn't adhere to your gearing rules on all of your items.
Bottom line: gearing is your own choice and as levels go up the options and variety only get larger. I love to see all these options and people gearing differently. Everyone is going to end up BiS by their own parameters or ridiculously complex stat weighting system if they just get out there and start getting gear.
Frankly as long as you aim to keep your primary stat high what your secondaries end up is pretty much playstyle dependant. Pick a health pool you're happy with and get to it. Then start maximising your primary stat. The only thing you can do wrong is be inefficient or 'hypocritical' in choosing items by ending up in a set that has less of a stat you value because you didn't adhere to your gearing rules on all of your items.
Bottom line: gearing is your own choice and as levels go up the options and variety only get larger. I love to see all these options and people gearing differently. Everyone is going to end up BiS by their own parameters or ridiculously complex stat weighting system if they just get out there and start getting gear.