Primary vs secondary stat weight

[KatFaceMeowmerz]

At what point, in your opinion, do you take secondary stats over primary? With dungeon gear scaling up on tuesday the dungeon secondary stat rings will be a little better. Currently on my 39s i use the green "of the" rings, they have 6 primary/ 9stam/ 9 secondary. On the ptr the dungeon rings are 10 stam/ 23 secondary. Which do you think is better? Do you think 6 primary is better than 14 secondary?

 

[Warglave]

With things like versatility you should check to see how much damage/heal increase it gives compared to how much your main stat gives, then decide how much you want/need the damage reduction. Say 6 main = 9 vers or whatever.

I think you can just mouse over your tooltip and check the immediate changes, at least to get an idea.

Haste and crit are trickier, so you need to find out the weights and how it feels to you. And no, I don't think 6 primary is generally "better" than 14 secondary assuming its a good secondary for your class/spec. Unless you like it more.

edit- as far as the green rings go, that's where I was pointing out the main/secondary comparison. If you find out that 6 main gives the same damage as 9 vers, then you can just convert main into vers on a piece of gear... so a 6 str 9 vers item should be less desirable than a 23 vers item, because 18 vers (6=9 + 9) is worse than 23 vers. Make sense?
(plus the extra healing and damage reduction from straight vers, assuming all other stats are the same.)

Also things like battle shout and arcane intellect (don't recall if they are available yet at 39) give increase to main stats, but not versatility. So for other brackets at least, can matter a bit when deciding if you don't factor them in. Minimal stuff.

 

[kkaabb]

Always primary >> secondary stat imho, but agree with warglaive that it really depends on ur gameplay / class / role .
for example I play MM hunter most of the time, if i go burst dps with proc build (incendiary, venomstrike, etc) i sacrifice some primary stat to stack a lil more crit and versa, almost 20%.
If the team needs ranged support with constant damage i go with no-proc build that max primary stat, but get crit and versa down 10%, and it plays really different.

 

[JadeFire]

In the 39s tho other than versatility tho crit and haste are just not important seeing as how the BiS items give so much main stat or they have a busted proc like the princesses scepters... you just take the best main stat items/overpowered items... Hand of Edward the odd is an example... who cares what the other stats are when it gives 40 int?. Its not like the 29s where you are choosing between several items that are close where arguments can be made... the 39s has unarguable BiS items flat out (as far as stacking main stat).

The only thing with Versatility is that you can stack it to 34% so you can get away with lower main stat. I have 34 on my BUDGET-Weaver and only 255 int, but i can heal for almost the same amount as most BiS twinks. That is the only way out of not going full boat on main stat. But, of course this gets harder or toons like warriors that need items like the Jackhammer/Princess Scepter to augment their damage... which costs you versatility.

IMO

 

[Fx]

Rule of thumb, 2 secondary > 1 primary.

In some specific cases 1 secondary can beat 1 primary but it's really unlikely to happen for most specs.

 

[necroaqua]

I'll note for ret/arms/fury - crusader procs make secondary stats more valuable than they would be for other classes.

 

[JadeFire]

OP:

Yes, Crusader procs can afford to use rings/neck with full haste such as Archanist's Pendant or Emerald Flame Ring... using these on casters tho as stated is not recommended/will yield a general loss of effectiveness versus main stat/versatility... since there is no caster-enchant as good as Crusader, especially after the upcoming nerfs.

I would not go full boat tho, giving up +8 strength enchant to your gloves or wrists to get +8 haste (or whatever it might be) = incorrect. There is a thin red line... I would draw the line at the rings and neck as far as items that offer only secondaries, for toons that can benefit from Crusader.

Goofy items like Green Welp Chest is also probably one of the items that is just good enough to use.

 

[Warglave]

Pretty sure the haste focus is just to get more attacks and therefore more procs. So it's haste to get more str.

edit- personally, it's such a little difference i'd not worry about it all that much. Guaranteed damage is good damage.
Fishing for procs is spikey damage and is great once in a while, but not great the rest of the time... depends what you prefer.

 

[JadeFire]

Pretty sure the haste focus is just to get more attacks and therefore more procs. So it's haste to get more str.

edit- personally, it's such a little difference i'd not worry about it all that much. Guaranteed damage is good damage.

It does have diminishing returns... you can get 40% haste with a human if you want, but if you remove items like Mind Trap Talisman, remove strength enchants for Haste ones, remove Princess Scepters for Swords with all haste like the Heirloom swords... Crusader won't carry that much loss in base strength/overpowered weapon procs... and you will just do less damage than somebody with around 19% haste using strength enchants and busted weapons.

 

[Warglave]

Agreed.

But the super-pros will also tell you to weapon swap to get more crusaders up, therefore more benefit overall.

and things like princess scepters you would keep to benefit procs from the added attacks. Too RNG for me.

 

[JadeFire]

Agreed.

But the super-pros will also tell you to weapon swap to get more crusaders up, therefore more benefit overall.

I agree, but weapon swapping with scepters is still better than weapon swapping with heirloom swords... haste or no haste... even after the nerf it will be. Fury also generates enough haste.

 

[Warglave]

Yup. But be careful... you might lose your pro status if you deviate from the super-pro handbook.

 

[JadeFire]

Yup. But be careful... you might lose your pro status if you deviate from the super-pro handbook.

I never read that book, it had big words in it.

 

[Warglave]

I think it's all screenshots, actually....

 

[ghank]

For example, if you have 200 int, agi, or str, 1% of versatility adds 1% dmg which equals 2 of the primary stat. But at 300, 1% gives you 3. I was thinking of making a simple spreadsheet to calculate. I want to get the Nightsky Sash which is 11 int / 10 stam, but my int, haste, vers, gloves may give more damage, or the same. The same damage would be better as it mitigates damage too.

There are a bunch of stat whores, or whatever you want to call them (no offense) that max out the primary, even though it does less damage overall. It just looks MANLY! I took less int on my mage (271 now at 29), and added some versatility for more or the same damage, with some damage mitigation. Haste also becomes more potent when going glass cannon style. But that is harder to figure as it also lowers the GCD. Was thinking of trying a haste whore mage. The missiles at 35-40% haste would be hilarious!

 

[Brov]

I always shoot for a 1:2 ratio of two secondary stats while following the rule that 2 secondary = 1 primary. In brackets that don't have mastery the "2" in that ratio is almost always vers.

sorry in advance if this doesnt make sense.

 

[necroaqua]

For example, if you have 200 int, agi, or str, 1% of versatility adds 1% dmg which equals 2 of the primary stat. But at 300, 1% gives you 3. I was thinking of making a simple spreadsheet to calculate. I want to get the Nightsky Sash which is 11 int / 10 stam, but my int, haste, vers, gloves may give more damage, or the same. The same damage would be better as it mitigates damage too.

You're partially right, but don't have the whole story.

Yes - the more primary stat you have, the more valuable verse is (and also haste/crit). However its not quite as accurate as just taking the primary stat - since it really depends on where the damage comes from. Different moves have different AP/SP ratios. So one spell might have a base of 500 damage and an AP ratio of 1/2. So your 200 agi gives you 600 damage from that ability. Another might have a lower 300 base, but might be a full 1/1 to give you 500 damage. Some take weapon damage into account (for physical classes) - which can throw another wrench in the calculations.

And then there are things like ele force and weapon procs - which are typically not affected by AP, but are affected by verse/haste/crit. Note that hidden satyr IS affected by AP/SP - but the legion neck enchants tend to be the only ones.

Ultimately it makes for rather annoying complex calculations which depend on your class, spec, playstyle and even other gear you're wearing. It can also depend on armor or resistances that your opponent might have. It'd be awesome to have those spreadsheets, but since we don't, we're left with general guidelines and rules of thumb (like 1 agi = 2-3 verse, and fury warriors want 20% haste, etc).

 

[Kirise]

You're partially right, but don't have the whole story.

Yes - the more primary stat you have, the more valuable verse is (and also haste/crit). However its not quite as accurate as just taking the primary stat - since it really depends on where the damage comes from. Different moves have different AP/SP ratios. So one spell might have a base of 500 damage and an AP ratio of 1/2. So your 200 agi gives you 600 damage from that ability. Another might have a lower 300 base, but might be a full 1/1 to give you 500 damage. Some take weapon damage into account (for physical classes) - which can throw another wrench in the calculations.

And then there are things like ele force and weapon procs - which are typically not affected by AP, but are affected by verse/haste/crit. Note that hidden satyr IS affected by AP/SP - but the legion neck enchants tend to be the only ones.

Ultimately it makes for rather annoying complex calculations which depend on your class, spec, playstyle and even other gear you're wearing. It can also depend on armor or resistances that your opponent might have. It'd be awesome to have those spreadsheets, but since we don't, we're left with general guidelines and rules of thumb (like 1 agi = 2-3 verse, and fury warriors want 20% haste, etc).

To emphasize what @necroaqua said, here's what I found for 39 resto shamans:

A point of each stat provides the following boost to healing spells (and damage reduction, as noted):

int = 0.31% (varies slightly, depending on spell coefficients)
vers = 0.15%, and 0.07% damage reduction
haste = 0.19%
crit = 0.09% (crit is 150% in PvP, not 200%)
armor = 0.16% physical damage reduction (varies slightly on total armor, and assumes a shield)

Given the above, I generally value int to secondary stats (other than crit) at a 2:3 ratio i.e. 2 int = 3 vers or 3 haste for me. If a piece of gear comes close to that ratio, I'll choose the secondary stats because primary stats get diminishing returns and the damage reduction from vers gets increasing returns. But my choices hinge on my role as a healer (where survival matters more), and the absence of additional benefit of crit for resto shamans in this bracket.

Generally speaking, I see a number of knowledgeable twinkers follow the 2:3 ratio, but please understand there are significant outlier reasons why a given player wouldn't do so. You really want to get a good handle on what you aim to accomplish with a particular character, how your playstyle intends to accomplish it, and in what context (casual BGs, arenas, premade BGs) you intend to do so. All of these factors can significantly affect gear choices.

 

[JadeFire]

For example, if you have 200 int, agi, or str, 1% of versatility adds 1% dmg which equals 2 of the primary stat. But at 300, 1% gives you 3. I was thinking of making a simple spreadsheet to calculate. I want to get the Nightsky Sash which is 11 int / 10 stam, but my int, haste, vers, gloves may give more damage, or the same. The same damage would be better as it mitigates damage too.

There are a bunch of stat whores, or whatever you want to call them (no offense) that max out the primary, even though it does less damage overall. It just looks MANLY! I took less int on my mage (271 now at 29), and added some versatility for more or the same damage, with some damage mitigation. Haste also becomes more potent when going glass cannon style. But that is harder to figure as it also lowers the GCD. Was thinking of trying a haste whore mage. The missiles at 35-40% haste would be hilarious!

Max statters are also the kids that bitch the most when you can't keep them up with heals because they have no HP and no verse... and just get butt-plugged by any random with half assed-dps. "Its the healers fault" because they can't carry some gimp with 2k hp and no verse.

When heals are not rocking 12-15% reduction in the 39s/29s, they are just playing cheese games where they should not even worry about verse anyway and just to max main stat... because it is not going to make a difference... they are going to survive because the enemies just don't have the dps to break basic heals or can't coordinate. When the other team is just just full of fools and one silence goes off followed by 2 burst focus shots... any heals will die that is not maxed out on survivalbility... it's not about skill its about simple math and numbers.

It's just what type of games you want to be in... "lol im the best, lets farm the yard games!" or games that require you to put in effort. I know you can't control them, but talking about the games or even referring to games you were in that were lopsided for your team is irrelevant and pointless... no different than people posting DPS screenshots... who gives a ****. And building your character around those games is just going to make it so you are worthless in matches when you are not playing against studio-****az.