EU LFM Legacy raiding 60-85

vedministern

Legend
As Legion isn't going to be released anytime soon, i've decided to make up my own content meanwhile and i'm looking for people to do it with me.

So what is legacy raiding. Basically it means we're going to raid the old expansions' content progressively from the 60 raids all the way to the 85 ones. As the game has progressed further and our characters with it, we're going to play as 10 man in 40/25 man difficulty with zero help from things not related to the current expansion. The point of this is not a nostalgia trip, the point is raiding content we haven't raided for a very long time or not at all before.

As i mentioned we are going to be 10 players total and raid whenever everyone is available, most likely 2 times a week. This project is not ment to take a lot of time at all, only a side thing from your main activity in wow. We are going to play 9 different classes, only warrior being doubled for prot and fury, and you will stick to your class all 4 expansion if you and one other in the group can agree to switch class with eachother between expansions. We change expansion whenever we kill the last boss of the current one, C'thun in vanilla, KJ in BT and LK25hc.

We classes and realm will be determined when we are 10 people ready to go, so everyone will start at the same time.

Some basic rules, more will be explained once we make the guild.
* No boost what so ever for the character.
* Heirlooms accepted while leveling, not when you're capped.
* No gold boost, no gear from further expansions
* Not exceeding the pre raid ilvl with self crafted items (ilvl 60 for vanilla, ilvl 115 for BT etc)

What we ask of you is that if you apply your interest in this, you plan to continiue to play wow for the next few months and finishing this project.

Add btag: Bajja#2866 for questions or report interest
 
vedministern said:
As the game has progressed further and our characters with it, we're going to play as 10 man in 40/25 man difficulty with zero help from things not related to the current expansion.
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As someone who's doing that (I belong to a guild specifically created to do twink legacy raiding)... Warning:

1. Molten Core: easy with 10 people.
2. Blackwing's Lair: 100% impossible with 10 people. Very hard with 15 fully geared (Molten Core tier complete) people. Some pulls are very hard (Death Talon Overseer / Death Talon Wyrmguard). Vaelastraz the Corrupt casts a spell that kills someone every few seconds (so you will be with just 5 people shortly after starting... Possibly without tank or healer). Chromaggus is also a tough guy.
3. AQ10: faceroll with even 5 people.
4. AQ40: Twin Emperors are a wall that made nearly every legacy raiding guild to disband. You'll need very good gear, very good coordination, and not less than 20 people.
5. Burning Crusade: we have still not reached TBC, but about to get there. We have the sensation that you'll need to be closer to the original number of people (25 in most cases) than with Vanilla (where you could complete those raids with half or a fourth).
6. Vanilla tiers: if you want it to be fun, gear yourself with the raid drops and get your raid tiers. And for that, Pala tier is only for Holy spec, Shaman tier is only for "mana" specs (so no enhacement), and same with Druids (so no cat/tank). Take also into account that most caster tiers (near everyone but Holy Pala) waste valuable potential into the now useless stat "Spirit".

And finally: these kind of challenges needs 40 active people to survive as, unlike lv100 raids, these ones see people depart continuously, so 2 weeks after starting you'll lose track of half the people. So always keep recruiting (make 2 groups with different schedule if necessary).

TLDR: get more people to start with, never stop recruiting, and look at the raid tiers before choosing a class/spec. And have very good luck ^^
 
It's not quite as bad as you make out. We're using an 8 man team of level 60s (limited to appropriate gear - we were in mostly blues when we started BWL).

Molten Core isn't hard - Domo was the only challenging one.

Blackwing Lair - Vaelastrasz is impossible with 8, but we've beaten every other boss with just 8. We could do Vael with 9 I think if we stack hunters/rogues. (Burning Adrenaline is only cast every 15 seconds and lasts for 20 seconds, so you get a couple of minutes in which to kill him). Some of the trash packs are pretty hard and Chromaggus was a challenge - but not impossible.

AQ40 - Pretty hard, but we've done Skeram, 3 bugs, Sartura and Fankriss. Huhuran isn't possible as she sleeps the 10 nearest people (which means our whole raid is asleep). Twins will be doable with 9 and a lot of practice (you certainly don't need anywhere near 20).

So with 9 people you could clear all vanilla content except Huhuran/Vael.

I would say you definitely need flexible specs though. We roll with 3 healers most fights, but we can swap between 2 and 4 as needed with spec changes.
 
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Evralia said:
Blackwing Lair - Vaelastrasz is impossible with 8, but we've beaten every other boss with just 8. We could do Vael with 10 I think.
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Not really no, I have done both Vaelastraz and full bwl clears with just 5 ppl several times.
Did it with players geared for pvp (of which 1-3 players where very close to bis pvp gear).
No world buffs or dim buffs & no pots just regular food + elixir/flask and drums.

Had to do a few pulls but really just had to get lucky and avoid having the healer get debuffed first.
If done with propper gear and classes (meaning pve bis, kor kron shaman set + bottle ect) id imagine it would be very possible with just 3. With bis for pve i mean max ilvl as the ilvl itself boosts your damage/healing and reduces dmg taken in raids/dungeons.

Aq 40 is also doable with 5, just need two warrior tanks on huhuran. First sleep pre shield wall + last stand + enraged regen -> swap to the other tank and redo for the second sleep. 5 pvp geared players ; dead within two. If they where pve bis idk maybe 4 would do, still need 2 tanks however.

But this is in terms of what is doable for actual twlnks, not for vanilla reinactment players with gear/enchant/talent restrictions.
 
Saying "Not really no" and then proceeding to talk about an entirely different set of circumstances isn't exactly fair (both my post and the OP did say using appropriate gear only). Apples and oranges.

Having said that - do you have a video of that Vael kill? I'm curious to see how much DPS you're doing with actual twink gear.

Even with OP gear I really don't believe you could do Vael with 3 (post squish). You'd need a stupid amount of DPS to kill him just before burning adrenaline killed you. With no ressers you'd have to kill him in under 60 seconds. That would be 16k dps. Assuming one of you is a healer that's 8k each. Even if you had 3x ressers you'd be looking at 5k dps+. The numbers don't add up.

And Huhuran, the first sleep is random (there's no timer for the first one) so how do you pre shield wall it?
 
Evralia said:
Saying "Not really no" and then proceeding to talk about an entirely different set of circumstances isn't exactly fair (both my post and the OP did say using appropriate gear only). Apples and oranges.
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Depends how one views "impossible" I guess.

No vods afaik, but we have streamed it befoure.

As for resses, went on my enh shaman so brought ahnk myself and had a rdrood for combat ress.

Under the effect of burning rush, damage done is increased by 100%, and all spell casts are instant.
In addition to that dmg buff everyone also constantly has Essence of the red giving, 20 rage / runic power and 50 energy regain per second (for certain classes this is rather insaine). And to boot boss starts far below max hp, geting it quickly into execute range.
During lust this adds up to alot alooot of damage, as the fight is exeedingly short stacking all of this ontop of eachother with trinkets like Jom gabbard or swarmguard makes it go poof.
Simply spamming LB in between SS while debuffed I averaged something between 10k and 14k on our pulls with a low 80 ish ilvl (didnt bother changing out low ilvl scaling gear as in rings/ribsplitters).

As for theoreticlly being able to 3 man it, would need 1 enh in kor kron set 500 ilvl + bottle 400 ilvl (this just reaches much higher ilvls than anything else) and either one disc and a prot warrior or possibly a brew monk*lower dmg than prot but more self sufficent* + a holy priest* higher dmg than disc*.
And naturally have the enh get the debuff first and second.

Not certain if it would have to be an enh however, elemental could do. And It might be doable for a mage to do it too, 20 seconds 20 pyroblasts use a rdrood and its 40, or maybe a combat rogue or feral abusing the energy regain could be egnogh.

As for huhuran you are correct about the first cast, but that does not stop dedication and simple trial and error.
 
I would love to do this. I've added your battle tag. If this idea is still floating around haha.
 
I will say, I've done BWL with 3-4 people pretty easily numerous times. But we're talking full t3 Naxx geared characters with the Naxx and ZG enchants, etc. Doing it with gear from MC and BWL is an entirely different ballgame. Also, when I did this last...I was a Full T3 Prot Warrior when Prot was insane and getting 15k shield slams.

So I can see why people will say it's doable with few.
 
So I withdraw some my points above. My Vanilla guild just cleared the remaining bosses. Some of the bosses I thought were impossible, it turns out, were not.

- We didn't use any twink gear or anything that wasn't available in vanilla. All gear we used was farmed in our raids.
- We used 8 players for everything except for Huhuran, Twin Emperors and C'thun (we used 10 for those).

Hardest bosses:
Vael - Pretty much a gear check. With full MC/BWL/AQ20 gear you can kill him if you have the right setup (Feral Druids and Hunters are insane here).
Chromaggus - Very hard, mostly because of the debuffs. With so few dispellers it's very hard to stay on-top of all the debuffs. We had four healers (50% of our raid) and they were pretty much constantly dispelling. If one player got 4 debuffs he would call out for a prio dispel. Time lapse makes it a lot harder but we've beaten that combo too.

Huhuran - We thought she was impossible, and I think without this strategy she would be. Turns out Wyvern sting has a 95 yard range. So we had the ranged at 40 yards away, and then one druid at 100 yards away. When she did Wyvern Sting, the Druid would run forward and dispel someone to Tranq the enrage, and then keep the tank alive. With cooldowns used in advance the tank would then barely survive. (Though she did have a tendancy to wyvern sting early). In phase 2 we then all popped Nature Protection potions and all cooldowns to burn her.

Twin Emps - I think these MIGHT be possible with 9 but we went with 10. One tank on each side, two healers on each side, one melee DPS, one bug tank, one bug healer, one bug dps. (3 tanks, 5 heals, 2 dps). We were in full BWL gear and tanks had about 19k health fully flasked. The melee emp is able to burst 19k in under 2 seconds, so we had to make sure we had some active mitigation or cooldown up pretty much constantly whilst tanking him. Other than that it was just a case of figuring out the threat mechanics so the caster wouldn't run away, and making sure there were no bugs beating on our healers.
 
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Evralia said:
It's not quite as bad as you make out. We're using an 8 man team of level 60s (limited to appropriate gear - we were in mostly blues when we started BWL).

Molten Core isn't hard - Domo was the only challenging one.

Blackwing Lair - Vaelastrasz is impossible with 8, but we've beaten every other boss with just 8. We could do Vael with 9 I think if we stack hunters/rogues. (Burning Adrenaline is only cast every 15 seconds and lasts for 20 seconds, so you get a couple of minutes in which to kill him). Some of the trash packs are pretty hard and Chromaggus was a challenge - but not impossible.

AQ40 - Pretty hard, but we've done Skeram, 3 bugs, Sartura and Fankriss. Huhuran isn't possible as she sleeps the 10 nearest people (which means our whole raid is asleep). Twins will be doable with 9 and a lot of practice (you certainly don't need anywhere near 20).

So with 9 people you could clear all vanilla content except Huhuran/Vael.

I would say you definitely need flexible specs though. We roll with 3 healers most fights, but we can swap between 2 and 4 as needed with spec changes.
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Ofcourse its possibly, people are just on different levels. For princess you really gotta prewall/last stand 10-12 sec after engaging, to save all cds... for 30% drums, pots, elixirs, correct setup will do the job.

10 man is way to many to run them old aq40/bwl, lower it to 6-7 ppl and you will get some serious troubles.
 
We're talking about not using twink gear here though. We don't have access to drums because it's not a vanilla consumable. In appropriate gear even if you time shield wall perfectly she will rip through you in seconds during the sting if her tranq isn't removed. Hence the strategy of having a dispeller 100 yards away is essential for those doing it in legit gear.
 
KK fair enough but i dont think 100 strenght extra for strenght users, /agi users will count up to 4 players. The base mana regen for low le vels are broken, u can almost not even oom nowdays. But you have a point there.
 
Celax said:
I will say, I've done BWL with 3-4 people pretty easily numerous times. But we're talking full t3 Naxx geared characters with the Naxx and ZG enchants, etc. Doing it with gear from MC and BWL is an entirely different ballgame. Also, when I did this last...I was a Full T3 Prot Warrior when Prot was insane and getting 15k shield slams.

So I can see why people will say it's doable with few.
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you havent done a full bwl run with 3-4 man, thats just bullshit, and naxx gear nowdays have same armor value as e very epic gear out there. Before t3 gear had much better stats than other epic gear, same with shields, weapons, armor value. So some pieces from mc/aq 40 with correct main stats could beat single t3 pieces..

u wont get vaelstrasz down with 4 ppl for example.
 
busgaga said:
you havent done a full bwl run with 3-4 man, thats just bullshit, and naxx gear nowdays have same armor value as e very epic gear out there. Before t3 gear had much better stats than other epic gear, same with shields, weapons, armor value. So some pieces from mc/aq 40 with correct main stats could beat single t3 pieces..

u wont get vaelstrasz down with 4 ppl for example.
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He said Warriors did 15k shield slams which assumes he wasn't talking about WoD.
 
with barmor prolly possibly, for every expansion u have been dealing more and more dmg. the state now is just like the late wotlk/cata dmg, And i didint even confront the 15 k slam, i just said its not possibly to 4 man it, back in wotlk/cata u couldnt even 5 man it, u had to like 10-12 man it
 
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