Don't do that, if you have proof it might suddenly turn into a flame war.
Edit: tho wait, this aint pvp forums, continue.
Edit: tho wait, this aint pvp forums, continue.
Juggernaut nerfed again...ROFL!!!
- Thread starter Alkaholic
- Start date
Falkor said:
SS or it didnt happen.
A plane is suspected to have crashed over the Atlantic Ocean with 200 dying.
Photo of the corpses or it didn't happen.
Maerduk
OG
Theyzha_Retnux said:
You're comparing an IRL situation that would be extremely difficult to capture vs. a completely simplistic gaming situation that is ridiculously easy to capture. That argument is a joke IMO. He's talking about how it happens so consistently, he should be able to capture it. If it does in fact happen consistently like MS 900+ crits happen.
"IMO" your opinion about my arguement sucks.
tweedledum
OG
Maerduk said:
Coherent manner? You're trying to convince yourself and half the forums rets are and have always been subpar compared to warriors. All you do is bitch about being in a weaker spot than the only class that even compares to paladins in sub 60 pvp.
OH HELL YEAH MS CRITS 1k ON PLATE. Argument is valid, but not in this discussion. The emphasis was put on the utility warriors used to gain from the juggernaut talent, before it was slammed into the ground and was changed to screw over a base ability as a sacrifice for the added utility.
You sacrifice NOTHING as a ret paladin, you've got tons of flavors to pick between mid tier in the tree.
You get a 6% damage increase from Crusade and Sanctified Retribution, 6% more melee damage if you spec imp. 2h's, 9% damage increase after three crits, if your target even lives that long.
500-ish crit heals after each judge crit, and it does happen often, because of course you have Fanaticism to push your judge crit chance up to 40% and above.
You never run out of mana, you have HoJ, Repentance, Hammer of wrath, the ranged execute that never misses, you can break stuns with Hand of Freedom improved through Divine Purpose, and in addition, you get the same amount of spell/ranged avoidance through that talent as every other class with similar talents.
You also have Judgement of Justice, one of the few, if not the only movement speed limiting effect in the game that cannot be removed by trinketing.
Your passive run speed is 7% faster than any other class not counting druids and shamans in their respective run speed forms, and you also have 50% reduced disarm duration built into Pursuit of Justice.
Speaking of abilities there's a severe lack of in the game, you also have Divine Shield which allows you to reset a fight back to stage 1 if you have to. Sure, your enemies will bandage if there's any grey matter between their shoulders, but this doesn't stop you from doing the same. Full health in four seconds from frostweaves, then back at them with Judgement of Justice.
Then there are warriors.
20% more critical strike damage from yellow attacks because of Impale, 5% more if specced Poleaxe Specialization in addition to 5% more flat damage from the talent.
Deep Wounds triggered from critical strikes, Rend for additional bleed damage, and 800ish damage every sixth second because of Taste for Blood assuming overpower crits, which it very often does thanks to Improved Overpower.
Unrelenting Assault further improves the damage of Overpower, and reduces the cooldown. A dandy additional effect is reducing healing and spell damage done if used on an enemy during spell cast.
6% more damage dealt with 2h's, essentially the same talent as Retribution gets.
2% lower chance of targets dodging your attacks plus 50% reduced disarm duration through Weapon Mastery, 4% strength/stam and 4 expertise from Strength of Arms.
Then there's Sweeping Strikes, which leads down to the infamous Mortal Strike talent, the first instant attack that doesn't depend on various factors, think dodged attacks for overpower and avoidance/blocks enabling revenge for use. There's also Improved Mortal Strike, talent is self-explanatory and improves the ability, in terms of percentages, just about as much as your talents increase the damage of your judgements.
On it's own, not that powerful. When coupled with burst damage from other abilities, deadly.
Warriors also get second wind, 10% of their health returned over 10 seconds in addition to 20 rage, the only self healing a warrior has in the bracket, beyond the use of bandages.
This is where it gets interesting, however.. To be able to charge in combat, warriors have to add 5 seconds to the cooldown of the charge ability. The Juggernaut talent is somewhat controversial in the essence that it gives warriors some utility against kiters and classes who before would put warriors in combat before they were in range to charge, and at the same time increasing the critical strike chance of our main attack.
Combat charge is golden, but increased critical strike chance on Mortal Strike/Slam is somewhat over the top considering they also have improved overpower.
In addition to that load of bullshit, warriors have to decide if they want to ditch some talent points from other, farily good talents in order to get improved hamstring, which has alot more impact on playstyle than the choice between Vindication/Eye for an Eye has for paladin types.
A warriors survivability is his damage and what little utility the arms tree offers, if you're alone it's not gonna help much. Shield wall is a good ability, but it doesn't make you invulnerable, and you're still subject to cc.
There's no fight reset, no self healing beyond second wind and bandages, and that alone is pretty low. All damage but overpower can be avoided, and there's no free 6secs of root/snare immunity.
I'd bet you'd trade one of your testicles to have the damage of a warrior, despite being marginally higher overall compared to paladins, but as long as warriors don't have your kind of juicy talents, it's not gonna happen before you're playing at level 80.
tl:dr
Both classes are fine.
Maerduk
OG
Lol I'm well aware of all of the arms warrior talents as well as the other talent trees and the synergy that they entail. I really don't understand why you spent an ass ton of time to type that out. Grateful to be sure, never said either classes weren't fine. I was arguing the fact that 100% MS crit in addition to the utility added with the ability to charge in combat was over the top. Paladins have always had a high amount of survivability, but up until 3.0 I'd say that's about all they had, survivability. You couldn't really kill anything in pvp and you'd end up surviving for a bit and then dying. I believe that's where all the "lolret" spamming came to fruition and all the flaming if you played ret as being a bad player.
Either way I've played ret for an ass ton of time and I can say that up until recently it was a joke damage wise in PvP especially with resil and hardly viable if at all in PvE. That's the only point I've been trying to get across. Warriors were king of pvp for quite awhile at 60 and pretty damn overpowered with a healer at 70. I remember quite vividly of my dumbass ally teams in WSG constantly getting camped by a warrior healer combination as he mowed through all of them. Or was not warrior/resto druid one of the highest ranked 2v2 teams for awhile? Despite all the warrior qq, they've always been able to quite easily kill most if not all classes. Old talented ret paladins did not.
PoJ was a necessary edition because you could kite paladins around all day even with blessing of freedom. Then on top of that JoJ was also necessary because as a melee class with no slowing capability wtf are you going to do about runners, kiters, sprinting flag runners etc. I will agree, the juggernaut charge was fairly necessary at lower levels and much more of a necessity at high level pvp but at least as a warrior you had the ability to use intercept to intervene with kiters as well as casters since it does cause an interrupt. And don't tell me stance dancing to intercept is that hard.
I'm not calling juggernaut overpowered, I was calling the 100% crit to MS immediately afterwards just that though. As for MS damage vs judgement damage, I only called you out on the fact that you were saying a juggernaut warrior using MS was comparative to a ret paladin with judgements. Sure crit wise they're essentially the same, but I know a lot of rets not playing with fanaticism. I only respec'd that way for judge damage essentially and even then it does less damage, has a higher cd, and lacks the healing debuff so it's pretty shitty in comparison. And oo a 10 yard range, if you think lag is bad with hitting with MS's try hitting people with judges as they're running away from you, it's the same thing.
Either way I've played ret for an ass ton of time and I can say that up until recently it was a joke damage wise in PvP especially with resil and hardly viable if at all in PvE. That's the only point I've been trying to get across. Warriors were king of pvp for quite awhile at 60 and pretty damn overpowered with a healer at 70. I remember quite vividly of my dumbass ally teams in WSG constantly getting camped by a warrior healer combination as he mowed through all of them. Or was not warrior/resto druid one of the highest ranked 2v2 teams for awhile? Despite all the warrior qq, they've always been able to quite easily kill most if not all classes. Old talented ret paladins did not.
PoJ was a necessary edition because you could kite paladins around all day even with blessing of freedom. Then on top of that JoJ was also necessary because as a melee class with no slowing capability wtf are you going to do about runners, kiters, sprinting flag runners etc. I will agree, the juggernaut charge was fairly necessary at lower levels and much more of a necessity at high level pvp but at least as a warrior you had the ability to use intercept to intervene with kiters as well as casters since it does cause an interrupt. And don't tell me stance dancing to intercept is that hard.
I'm not calling juggernaut overpowered, I was calling the 100% crit to MS immediately afterwards just that though. As for MS damage vs judgement damage, I only called you out on the fact that you were saying a juggernaut warrior using MS was comparative to a ret paladin with judgements. Sure crit wise they're essentially the same, but I know a lot of rets not playing with fanaticism. I only respec'd that way for judge damage essentially and even then it does less damage, has a higher cd, and lacks the healing debuff so it's pretty shitty in comparison. And oo a 10 yard range, if you think lag is bad with hitting with MS's try hitting people with judges as they're running away from you, it's the same thing.
tweedledum
OG
Not the damage on it's own, it's chance to crit on the other hand, and the pros/cons of either ability.
and, past =/= present, thin red line, worth of comparison fades somewhat.
and, past =/= present, thin red line, worth of comparison fades somewhat.
Maerduk
OG
tweedledum said:
Nah I'm just getting a little sick of people bitching about ret pally now when they can actually kill people. I spent four years bubbling and dying, now when I can actually kill someone as ret it's "LOLRET URBAD, NERF, QQ" Warriors have always had a high damage output and the ability to drop people. Paladins got a necessary buff, great, people need to stop complaining about it. Warriors got a necessary utility, that's fine, I don't care that they can charge in combat, I did care that they could charge in combat and 2-3 shot me. It got nerfed, for a valid reason, just like SoC damage got nerfed epically. There's a reason for everything.
Maerduk
OG
Falkor said:
Lol speaking of big brother, you see that new facial recognition crap with controller-less gaming coming out for the 360? It's called project Natal. Scary stuff man >.> <.< Facial recognition, in your home >.> <.< Lol j.k I'm not one of those conspiracy theorist people, but it was kind of freaky.
tweedledum
OG
should be called project anal, looks like a pile of shit if you ask me..
and to sum le rants up, both classes are in a good spot, paladins left a tad behind due to their lack of crusader strike, but all things in good time
and to sum le rants up, both classes are in a good spot, paladins left a tad behind due to their lack of crusader strike, but all things in good time