How to fix Warriors @ 19 -

Kore nametooshort said:
This thread is officially hyjacked.



There is currently a debate over the best way to balance warriors in the Balancing Level 19's Discussion. The aim is to fix warriors without making them OP and without affecting endgame whatsoever. As such the core suggestions at the moment are Berserker stance, Hamstring and Intercept. I feel that these are mandatory, but the question that is in the most contention is what other utility should warriors get.



Spells that would be possible to include are Shield Block, Shield Bash, Disarm and Overpower. I feel that Overpower and Shield Block is justifiable and warriors should get those. I feel that Shield Bash would unbalance healers in the bracket. Disarm would be balanced as well, but i though that Shield Block would be better for their survivability, but Fochixi mentioned that this could be unbalanced towards rogues and other fast hitting foes. Disarm and Shield Block together would not be justifiable i feel.



So how do you feel about warrior buffs? To read what has been discussed so far use the above link to go to the Low Level Balancing Discussion Board and then go to the last page of the Balancing Level 19's thread.
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Warrior had all these abillities to begin with, why would it be bad if they get disarm and shieldblock back? It's not like they were Supermen like other classes back in the days...



Edit: I post here cause cba to read all in the other thread
 
Zimt the Diplomat said:
Warrior had all these abillities to begin with, why would it be bad if they get disarm and shieldblock back? It's not like they were Supermen like other classes back in the days...



Edit: I post here cause cba to read all in the other thread
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Everey class has changed so much from 3.3.5 that you can't really compare warriors now to back then when trying to balance them, you have to compare them to other classes now. Also, back in 3.3.5 warriors did not have access to piercing howl, bloodthirst, Mortal strike, shield slam and (potentially) intercept.



Edit: If you feel warriors would be fine with disarm and shield block, then make a case for it. I'm not here to persuade you, I'm here for your opinions.
 
Kore nametooshort said:
Everey class has changed so much from 3.3.5 that you can't really compare warriors now to back then when trying to balance them, you have to compare them to other classes now. Also, back in 3.3.5 warriors did not have access to piercing howl, bloodthirst, Mortal strike, shield slam and (potentially) intercept.



Edit: If you feel warriors would be fine with disarm and shield block, then make a case for it. I'm not here to persuade you, I'm here for your opinions.
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yo kore, why so accurate? I believe warrior suffered the most (bad) changes. Well, cba to discuss about thing that never will happen /end of sub discussion :) go on
 
I included some discussion about altering the way the spec specific distance closers are handled.
 
I think having Hamstring avaible at 18 would be fine, Shield Block is a meh idea imo. If we obtain Intercept everything else is null, I WANT INTERCEPT. :)
 
Lawlpurge said:
Well if all follows through, warriors at end game are going to be shit on hard too. Charge and intercept are going to SHARE a CD. Yep. For 15 seconds we're going to have to run around a sitting duck, getting raped by ranged until charge is up again.
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That's only for Juggernaut in the Arms tree



On topic: I updated the main discussion page with a little more about talent tree redesign.



How about doing a poll of the abilities that we would like to see added. Pick any 4 from the following list and make your case:



Intercept

Hamstring

Shield Bash

Overpower

Disarm

Shield Block

Battle Shout

Berserker Rage
 
well, to make warriors VERY viable, i'd say, Hamstring, because it adds another way of gaining ToT, instead of getting the Yo-yo effect. (gap closer - root/fear/slow, gapcloser, another root/fear/slow, rinse, repeat)

Battle shout, because warriors need a viable spell to buff rogues/paladins (heh, just kidding, paladins needs no buffs ;))

Disarm, because it gives an endgame feel to it.

and shield block for flag carrying =)

although i'd love intercept, i will say, that when you look at it from any other PoW's, i'm worried that, in our hurry to give warriors the much needed buff, we'd end up actually making them un-kiteable.. :\
 
chíll said:
although i'd love intercept, i will say, that when you look at it from any other PoW's, i'm worried that, in our hurry to give warriors the much needed buff, we'd end up actually making them un-kiteable.. :\
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This is a good point, but remember that intercept has a 30 second cool down. I don't see warriors having too much ToT with intercept, but that is a good point and worth discussing more.



Battleshout could be a better buff to warriors than over power. It would be a less RNG based dps increase and would allow warriors to set up burst. It would also help with stance dancing for non arms warriors.



At the moment i think that hamstring + zerker stance(for intercept) + intercept + disarm or block + overpower or shout is the way to go.
 
Kore nametooshort said:
This is a good point, but remember that intercept has a 30 second cool down. I don't see warriors having too much ToT with intercept, but that is a good point and worth discussing more.
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It also comsumes rage and that is something that is a little more difficult to generate in low level pvp. You might have enough to catch back up to your target, but, will you also have the rage for hamstring/PH and to then also deal damage with other abilties?



It's probably more balanced then you might think. Especially if we can incorperate some of the things I mentioned on the main page with the talent tree redesign.
 
fochixi said:
It also comsumes rage and that is something that is a little more difficult to generate in low level pvp. You might have enough to catch back up to your target, but, will you also have the rage for hamstring/PH and to then also deal damage with other abilties?



It's probably more balanced then you might think. Especially if we can incorperate some of the things I mentioned on the main page with the talent tree redesign.
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Yeah, thats true. If we incorporate what you said on the main page though, juggernaut might have the potential to be OP, especially if warrior utility is increased
 
i hear you, however, blizzard have a hard time making a point on warriors, since, lets face it, they steamroll the 85 bracket. (from my experience, at least).. therefore, i feel that altering the talent tree too much, can have too high an endgame result, and wouldn't be appealing to blizzard. from my PoV, the changes will have to be made, when we start to discern at what level the class learns what spells, and vice-versa. warriors do have alot of spells already though, and therefore, would there be any consistency to REMOVING an ability or two, in favor of some other abilities? (like, would heroic strike be more viable around level 40, and instead gain intercept / hamstring? and sunder armor, could that go for anything?) atm, when i play my warr, my problem tends tp be that i have a MILLION refresable spells to keep up on the target, but not enough rage gain. (talking from a dungeon PoV here, in a boss fight, theres rend, TC and sunder armor x3, i hardly ever USE heroic strike simply because i don't have the rage anyways)



in short, the 3 major problems to our discussions are these:

-changes mustn't unbalance the other brackets too much

-it cannot be too overwhelming for new players, getting a million different spell effect thrown in your face at once can be confusing.

-it must not unbalance the PvE factor too. we don't want warrs to run around pimp slapping bosses, just because they got a severe dmg buff to counter low ToT...

sorry if some of this didn't make sense, its late and i'm tired :3
 
Don't even bother suggesting to change talent trees. its not gonna happen.
 
I kinda lol'ed because I just read that whole thread and realized that most of you guys are asking for new spells/Ask blizz to give you back spells. I think blizz had their mind right when they decided to remove hamstring from this bracket etc. Why don't you guys just ask for either an improve to your actual spells? Don't have to affect High-end at all since you could just ask for a better scaling of rank or something like that. No? I might be wrong, yes. But basically, I was reading this thread and here's all the spells I've seen discussion about:



Overpower

Intercept

Hamstring

Shield Block

Battle Shout

Berserker Rage

Shield Bash

Disarm



..
 
Hmm, removing sunder would be a good way of justifying new moves.



I dusted off my warrior yesterday so i could gain a warriors perspective on this discussion. I feel that intecept and hamstring are mandatory still, but any more mobility than that would be a buff too far, so juggernaut would be OP. I felt frustrated when on the O because i had no mechanics to help the fight. As fury i had no MS or any other utility other than PH. I also tried out arms breifly to see what it would be like and its rotation was aweful, it felt like playing a 3.3.5 ret with MS having a 4.5s cooldown and no buttons to press inbetween. Survivability however felt fine. Fury rotation felt adequate, unengaging but adequate.



As i see it we could either introduce battleshout to buff warrior rotations or over power. Battleshout would allow Arms warriors to set up burst opportunities better and would allow fury warriors to stance dance since they have no access to stance mastery. Overpower might not be enough, it might be worth proposing to move 40% or so of the proc chance of Taste for Blood - Spell - World of Warcraft to become part of the arms specialisation which would make arms rotations more engaging and bring their damage closer to that of fury and it wouldn't buff fury too much which is a danger. Thoughts? It would also possibly be possible to nerf OP at lower levels. The taste for blood talent would then be lowered to 20% per point and would result in endgame warriors still speccing the same.



I also had a rethink on shield bash. With increased healthpools healing won't be as important as it is now and i felt really frustrated when on the O in wsg cos i couldnt do anything against healers. It would encourage better warrior play and shield swapping etc. I now also feel that shield block is not as important anymore and that disarm would be a better balanced ability. Thoughts? Also, what are opinions in the amount of utility needed?



I reckon the following changes would do the trick

- zerker stance

- intercept

- disarm and/or shield bash

- overpower+taste for blood*0.4 or battleshout



and remove

- sunder armour
 
Kore nametooshort said:
Yeah, thats true. If we incorporate what you said on the main page though, juggernaut might have the potential to be OP, especially if warrior utility is increased
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remember that after 4.06 juggernaut will make the charge and intercept share a cooldown so I don't really see it becoming an issue.



ps-I knew you'd come around on shield bash.



*edit*

I really think that if you approach it in a manner of them fixing things and doing so in a way that will prevent them from having to make major changes later that it could stick. They will have to change something once the next expansion hits anyways. Might as well fix it now so people have a chance to get used to it. It would ultimately have no impact on the end game orther than to prevent them from future problems of people finding ways to work the system once they have enough talent points to do so. Since vanilla there has always been a build to pop up and break the rules or falls outside of what blizz had intended. They got it right by tying a major strike to each tree. They simply need to expand upon that. Juggernaut, Warbringer, and Heroic Fury are just as tailored to their spec as MS, SS, and BT. They sooner they realize it and adjust, the better. lt's going to save them time in the back end because they will never have to worry about a Fury or Arms warrior getting warbringer or and Arms or Protection warrior getting Heroic Fury...............no matter how many talent points you give them.



Arms gets the bursty (possibly longer rage) charge that shares a cooldown with intercept. Fury uses intercept as it's distance closer and has to manage rage better and still suffers from being put into combat to nulify Charge. Protection is just utility defense/interrupts with lots of movement to offset the lack of damage. Three distinct styles that can't be busted up by talent manipulation.



anywho that's how I see it.



If low levels just got intercept and hamstring I'd be happy, but, I'd really like to see a little more utility as well.
 
I think that giving juggernaut and warbringer and, to a lesser extent, heroic fury would be buffing warriors too far. If we take a look at an Arms, his ToT would be high, he would have a 4 second stun every 15 seconds and would generally be a nightmare for healers. 30seconds is fair I feel, it allows strategic use of CDs to get ToT (especially if all trinkets become 2 mins). I feel on my warrior that i would be just about right with a 30 sec CD. Ofcourse gere would be certain situations i couldnt handle, but it would be a whole load more balanced than juggernaut. Prot warriors would be a righteous bitch too, charging the healer -> shield bash, intercept FC -> shield slam. Not funfor the healer.
 
I kinda lol'ed because I just read that whole thread and realized that most of you guys are asking for new spells/Ask blizz to give you back spells. I think blizz had their mind right when they decided to remove hamstring from this bracket etc
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At one point they removed disengage from 19 hunters (back in mid bc i think) and here they have it again.

Along with taking kings buff, to making it a prot spec buff. Then removing it again.

Anythings possible; doesnt mean everythings plausable.
 
bankbeauty said:
I kinda lol'ed because I just read that whole thread and realized that most of you guys are asking for new spells/Ask blizz to give you back spells. I think blizz had their mind right when they decided to remove hamstring from this bracket etc. Why don't you guys just ask for either an improve to your actual spells? Don't have to affect High-end at all since you could just ask for a better scaling of rank or something like that. No? I might be wrong, yes. But basically, I was reading this thread and here's all the spells I've seen discussion about:



Overpower

Intercept

Hamstring

Shield Block

Battle Shout

Berserker Rage

Shield Bash

Disarm



..
Click to expand...



Too bad simply changing the scaling won't do jack shit. warriors still get kited like rag dolls.
 
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