<Green Tinted Goggles> semimade VS Silverwing Sentinels
- Thread starter Azialtwink
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Assaśin-PWV
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Oh no
Schalood
Psychedelic Gladiator
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Azialtwink
Veteran
I sure will, thanks! Hope that you guys can win someday as well for your own sanity but in the meanwhile - keep photoshopping those pics!
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That was actually funny though. That jump is not easy on you as undead - especially not on a laptop. Also to much TBC PS twinking sometimes makes me forget that your Insignia don't remove everything. Loved the music.
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Also BIG yikes
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Neebler
Veteran
Ugh.
Crusader generally isn't good at 19. But it's not enough to just say what a lot of people agree on so I'll explain it.
At 60, yes, people use Crusader. That's because the damage benefit from Crusader against another 60 is far more relevant than 40 damage from a Fiery Weapon proc, even though Fiery Weapon procs way more often than Crusader.
At 19, however, people have much less health. 40 damage proccing very frequently is much more threatening to a lower level health pool than a very infrequent and unreliable 100 STR buff. When you get it, it's great. But that's unlikely. Fiery is very likely.
Crusader simply does not proc frequently enough to be better, especially on a 1-hander, since enchants proc more frequently on slower speed weapons - and 1-handers are much faster than 2-handers.
For an extreme hypothetical, imagine there was an enchant that granted 14 million strength, but it had a .00000001% proc chance. Would you run that over Fiery weapon?
No. The reward isn't justified by the unicorn proc possibility.
Your goal as Rogue is to do as much damage as possible during whatever uptime you have on your target. In games with kiting FC's and support classes peeling for him, this window is usually small. Why bet on some shit proc rate buff going off during that time? You want reliable, consistent damage that will shred the target while you're on it.
I think it can be purged too? Not certain on that one but if that's the case, that's no bueno. The heal you get isn't even that good either.
Fiery or Lifestealing are much better options.
Crusader generally isn't good at 19. But it's not enough to just say what a lot of people agree on so I'll explain it.
At 60, yes, people use Crusader. That's because the damage benefit from Crusader against another 60 is far more relevant than 40 damage from a Fiery Weapon proc, even though Fiery Weapon procs way more often than Crusader.
At 19, however, people have much less health. 40 damage proccing very frequently is much more threatening to a lower level health pool than a very infrequent and unreliable 100 STR buff. When you get it, it's great. But that's unlikely. Fiery is very likely.
Crusader simply does not proc frequently enough to be better, especially on a 1-hander, since enchants proc more frequently on slower speed weapons - and 1-handers are much faster than 2-handers.
For an extreme hypothetical, imagine there was an enchant that granted 14 million strength, but it had a .00000001% proc chance. Would you run that over Fiery weapon?
No. The reward isn't justified by the unicorn proc possibility.
Your goal as Rogue is to do as much damage as possible during whatever uptime you have on your target. In games with kiting FC's and support classes peeling for him, this window is usually small. Why bet on some shit proc rate buff going off during that time? You want reliable, consistent damage that will shred the target while you're on it.
I think it can be purged too? Not certain on that one but if that's the case, that's no bueno. The heal you get isn't even that good either.
Fiery or Lifestealing are much better options.
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Azialtwink
Veteran
I don't agree. The chance on hit is 2.7 * 1.82 = 4.914 ~ 5% using Shadowfang for the 100 AP buff. With an uptime of almost 100% of SaD I get the proc (not counting the heals) quite alot. And since you keep the buff even if you switch your weapons that allows me to switch to one of my weapon sets.
I Have x3 Shadowfangs enchanted with LS, Crus and Fiery as well as x2 Assassin's Blades with Fiery and LS macro'd to different keybindings. That way I can get the proc and switch to whatever suits that situation. If I want to burst I'll go x2 Fiery or if I'm in a situation where I have to take the flag and need HP I'll use x2 LS so they are both very situational. My point is that I can get the 100 AP buff (which is huge) and use it for my other wep sets with diff enchants on them.
On WM, SW and Smolder the buff wasn't dispellable (as I haven't tested it yet on Classic) but even if it is that's really situational as a priest have to be nearby AND recognise that I have it within that short period of time. As an Alliance you'd have to be more careful as you have both Shaman's purge and dispells from Priests.
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Azialtwink
Veteran
Cennix
Veteran
The other problem with Crusader is that you don't actually gain any damage from it when it procs. not only is it a pathetic 1ppm but you then need to stick to your target for the next 15 seconds (which is unrealistic most of the time) to be able to get the full benefit. Better players will make this harder for you as well.
As a warrior i hate being chased by a rogue that has duel fiery/ls because i know full well as soon as they connect i'm eating at least an extra 60 or 80 damage i can do nothing about, and that's just on the first global.
Also for what it's worth, I dumped crusader as a warrior (where I get twice the AP bonus you do, it literally doubles my AP from just over 200 to just over 400), for lifestealing, and it's a million times better without a doubt.
As a warrior i hate being chased by a rogue that has duel fiery/ls because i know full well as soon as they connect i'm eating at least an extra 60 or 80 damage i can do nothing about, and that's just on the first global.
Also for what it's worth, I dumped crusader as a warrior (where I get twice the AP bonus you do, it literally doubles my AP from just over 200 to just over 400), for lifestealing, and it's a million times better without a doubt.
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Azialtwink
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Neebler
Veteran
...This doesn't address the problem that Cennix is talking about. No one is arguing against the fact that it is good to swap to other weapons after getting a crusader proc. Everyone agrees with you there.Which is why I use x2 Fiery with 100 ap
We are arguing that you are seldom going to get the stars to align where you get the crusader proc at all at the critical moment that you are given a brief window of uptime on the EFC.
Let's think through a common scenario here.
You are getting kited by mages, hunters etc. against a team's defense trying to connect on the EFC. You will be spending the vast majority of this time hitting virtually nothing, since you are slowed/rooted/hard CC'd.
Finally, whether by cutting or just luck, you get on the EFC. His support is close behind him. You have maybe 5-10 seconds max (obviously this can vary but generally it's a short window against good teams) to get a crusader proc before you're cc'd again, and you'd better hope it's towards the first swing rather than the last as to not totally waste the proc.
So realistically, you won't have much of a chance to get a crusader proc before you get on your priority target, and when you're on the target, it's pretty unlikely you'll get a proc when you need it.
Or, during that entire window of time, you could have just been using fiery/LS instead.
In fact, straight from Wowhead, let's look at exactly the difference of getting a crusader proc vs. a bunch of lifesteal procs during your uptime window:
"The +100 strength from Crusader will increase your DPS by ~14 for 15 seconds. This is about an extra 210 damage, while lifestealing does only about 130 damage over the same period. So, crusader does ~80 more damage than lifestealing over the same time period. However, if crusader procs more than once over a 15 second period, some of that extra DPS is wasted, while with Lifestealing the damage is always assured (unless resisted of course).
So crusader gets you about 80 more damage than lifestealing over the same time period, but lifestealing will heal you for about 30 more.
*Note - The damage does not take into account things like shadow resistance, armor, or critical strikes. It is more likely that the crusader's damage is decreased by a larger percentage than the lifestealing, especially on mail/plate wearers, meaning that in some cases lifestealing could actually be doing more damage than crusader."
^ While there wasn't a similar comparison to Fiery weapon, Fiery weapon does more damage per proc than lifestealing and procs very often, so I'd assume the difference in damage between Fiery and Crusader over 15 seconds would be even less.
"Perfect, I'll use LS/Fiery with a Crusader proc!
"If you finally connect to the EFC and get a Crusader proc on your first swing, sure. So in every 1/10000000 games, your method is superior.
In the other 9999999 games, you won't get a Crusader proc at all, or you'll get it at a time that it has virtually no benefit, miss out on a ton of damage, and then get CC'd again.
Or, you could have never even bothered to mess with getting a crusader proc, and do comparably high damage with significantly less risk with fiery on your weapon.
Trust me I wasn't pleased when I figured out my 100g investment was crappy but that's just reality dude.
Powerlol
Grandfathered
Also from what I can see, @Azialtwink doesn't use any auto attack swing timer to know when to actually change his weapon with 100% being able to benefit from his 15 secs crusader while changing from weapon. Pretty sure that guy doesn't know that changing weapon reset AA timer since he doesn't have the add on and he didn't take this in consideration.
Also imagine that guy using potions while 2 sec after swapping weapons.. added timer to his swing timer
OH MY GOD LEAKED INFORMATION
potions does reset AA timer in case people might have not notice it. See a lot of retard using potions and losing global AA therefore losing a lot of dmg
Also imagine that guy using potions while 2 sec after swapping weapons.. added timer to his swing timer
OH MY GOD LEAKED INFORMATION
potions does reset AA timer in case people might have not notice it. See a lot of retard using potions and losing global AA therefore losing a lot of dmg
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Azialtwink
Veteran
...This doesn't address the problem that Cennix is talking about. No one is arguing against the fact that it is good to swap to other weapons after getting a crusader proc. Everyone agrees with you there.
We are arguing that you are seldom going to get the stars to align where you get the crusader proc at all at the critical moment that you are given a brief window of uptime on the EFC.
Let's think through a common scenario here.
You are getting kited by mages, hunters etc. against a team's defense trying to connect on the EFC. You will be spending the vast majority of this time hitting virtually nothing, since you are slowed/rooted/hard CC'd.
Finally, whether by cutting or just luck, you get on the EFC. His support is close behind him. You have maybe 5-10 seconds max (obviously this can vary but generally it's a short window against good teams) to get a crusader proc before you're cc'd again, and you'd better hope it's towards the first swing rather than the last as to not totally waste the proc.
So realistically, you won't have much of a chance to get a crusader proc before you get on your priority target, and when you're on the target, it's pretty unlikely you'll get a proc when you need it.
Or, during that entire window of time, you could have just been using fiery/LS instead.
In fact, straight from Wowhead, let's look at exactly the difference of getting a crusader proc vs. a bunch of lifesteal procs during your uptime window:
"The +100 strength from Crusader will increase your DPS by ~14 for 15 seconds. This is about an extra 210 damage, while lifestealing does only about 130 damage over the same period. So, crusader does ~80 more damage than lifestealing over the same time period. However, if crusader procs more than once over a 15 second period, some of that extra DPS is wasted, while with Lifestealing the damage is always assured (unless resisted of course).
So crusader gets you about 80 more damage than lifestealing over the same time period, but lifestealing will heal you for about 30 more.
*Note - The damage does not take into account things like shadow resistance, armor, or critical strikes. It is more likely that the crusader's damage is decreased by a larger percentage than the lifestealing, especially on mail/plate wearers, meaning that in some cases lifestealing could actually be doing more damage than crusader."
^ While there wasn't a similar comparison to Fiery weapon, Fiery weapon does more damage per proc than lifestealing and procs very often, so I'd assume the difference in damage between Fiery and Crusader over 15 seconds would be even less.
"Perfect, I'll use LS/Fiery with a Crusader proc!
If you finally connect to the EFC and get a Crusader proc on your first swing, sure. So in every 1/10000000 games, your method is superior.
In the other 9999999 games, you won't get a Crusader proc at all, or you'll get it at a time that it has virtually no benefit, miss out on a ton of damage, and then get CC'd again.
Or, you could have never even bothered to mess with getting a crusader proc, and do comparably high damage with significantly less risk with fiery on your weapon.
Trust me I wasn't pleased when I figured out my 100g investment was crappy but that's just reality dude.
You're def overreacting with quote "1/10000000 games". There's tons of 1v1 situations you get into it when I find it handy. Who said I'd use Crusader when I'm connecting to an EFC or Mage trying to get a proc? I can't recall losing any proper 1v1 versus a rogue because of that particular reason.
They either play using LS or Fiery (or both of each) and as an undead with 10 SR +5 res on back that alone is almost 21% resist to Shadow spells. And having endless amounts of gold (Mage main) I always use Minor res pot which is 25 res in all schools of magic that last for 3 min (not that they cost much - about 60s each) making me resist both Fiery and LS procs (40 SR and 30 FR) while they eat hard hits from Crusader proc -> switch to Fiery x2 or x2 LS. So you're wrong there.
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After years of TBC PS twinking and having used it for a long time it's almost in your spinal cord and whenever my Addons have to be disabled (BattlegroundTarget, WST, SD etc) because of errors even though it's the latest update I can still manage just fine. But thanks for your concern though bud. I still gotta learn my jumps properly though as I've always played as nelf (Anween is my char name if you want to check WM armory) which makes every jump x100 easier.
Neebler
Veteran
Well yeah, that number was just hyperbole lol.
The EFC thing is just an example of a time where it would be ideal to have Crusader, but you probably won't. During a game you will obviously get it at least once but it's most important to get it during specific windows.
And I'm pretty sure in real games the resistance pots will be banned so that's basically a non-factor outside of pugs. I mean at that point you might as well say you can just speed pot past everyone and magic dust the EFC. xd
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Azialtwink
Veteran
Yeah, that's the reality right now though. 99% of the games are just that - pugs. Twinking won't really become huge til Phase 4-5 when people are done with their 2nd 60 alt and have no content. That's when people have to make their own fun (if you will) and organically we'll see more twinks in all brackets and guilds pop up. As it is right now it's hard getting a proper 10v10 premade. But thanks for taking the time to write. I do appreciate it.
In the meanwhile I'll use my 24k gold to pop Deviate fish like candy, using Discomb rays, Resistance pots, Magic dust and all that good fun in pugs and thus survining in situations I'd normally die in.
Powerlol
Grandfathered
As a private server coordinator I might be able to tell you that playing private server for years, especially TBC, doesn't mean you've any knowledge about how you should play your char at the best. Especially the one you mentionned (SW, WM, Smolderforge). However there are some players that will always be striving to be the best and learn from their mistakes, but that's only like a few of the people and if there is no competition (and I know that there was never any competition for twinks on any TBC servers) people doesn't increase in term of skill, so no improvements overall.
*note; by competition I mean competitive bgs 10vs10 daily with no pugs at all, and with no bugs (no players running around with full spell power gear because the scalling is increased because of spell power coefficient not calculated properly).
*note2; also I'm talking about a 19s perspective, I don't say all tbc players are bad, saw you mentioning people like mir, rivah and such on another post before you start arguing about something I didn't start to talk about. I know those guys too especially rivah which is a friend of mine and we play on classic in the same premade so of course when I'm talking about TBC's skill and improvements I'm talking about the twink scene which didn't exist that much