Great post that sums up the 19 bracket...

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> 19 WSG-- So Bad.



The person who posted this actually has good grammar and doesn't come off to be a troll. Well worth the read.



Rant

by Loreal



As far as WSG PuG's go, 19 twinking is pretty much dead. Half an hour wait during "prime time"? I'm glad I didn't pay the transfer fee to bring over BoA's.



Class changes have shut out a lot of possibilities in the bracket. There used to be real choices about how to deploy your team on the map, but changes have enormously limited "correct" roles and placement. There are only 2, maaaaybe 3, viable pursuit classes. The other 6 classes are completely boned on O if they don't have hunters/shaman with them (assuming that the FC is a druid or shaman... and it usually is). IMO, the speed boosts broke the bracket by making the non-speedy classes feel irrelevant over such a huge swathe of the map and for such a long part of the match-- i.e. until debuffs are up. Some classes (*cough*rogues*cough*) are barely worth bringing into WSG, period.



I don't want to hear any "You don't know what you're talking about! Mages are amazing on D!" or "The paladin can really make a difference by tossing a HoF on his FC as he runs by," because you'll just be proving what a narrow supporting role these classes now have.



Gross class imbalances are a huge part of why 19s aren't as appealing to as many people as they used to be, but part of the bracket's decline is due (IMO) to player behavior. The "style" of level 19 WSG play is very different from what many of us used to love. I think a lot of people really want more player vs. player, NOT the player vs. terrain, chase-the-jump-exploiting-druid-up-to-the-gy-over-the-tunnel-up-to-the-roof loop that every match has become these days. A bracket where there are more counters to the endless running looks really enticing after a few such matches at 19.



Furthermore, the constant AFK'ing and faction hopping for best win chance is a huge detriment to the bracket. Throwing matches away gives off the idea that these BG's are trash... and the more you do this, the more the bracket does become trash. If PuGs matches are somehow beneath you or not worth your time, DO NOT QUEUE. You are just ruining the experience for everyone else. Sadly, this behavior is so prevalent that waiting 40 minutes in queue just to see your teammates abandon the match does not feel worth it. Why queue at all if you can't get onto a full team of dedicated players?



I also want to add that many (not all, but many) of the 19s here in Ruin are amongst the rudest, most immature, most foul-mouthed players I have encounted in WoW. And no, that's not a compliment. The unpleasantness is a turn-off for a lot of people. If you comport yourselves like decent human beings, more people might want to play with you-- or at least fewer would want to avoid you.



Talk up your superior Ruin premade experiences all you want, but if PuGgers struggle to get matches, then twinking is doomed. Without a healthy PuGging community you won't be finding fresh players to recruit for those premade matches when your teammates get burnt out. Team rosters are already pretty thin and incestuous.



After playing a 19 for four years, I'm seeing this bracket reach a nadir. Level capped pvp >>>>> 19s at this point. Maybe that's as it should be, but it's too bad that this bracket fell so far as to make that true. Here's hoping that Cataclysm brings some changes to make the bracket more fun for all, not just a few golden classes in one lousy battlegroup. But I'm not holding my breath.



TL;DR -- 19s bracket is lame anymore.
 
So true that its sad.

This had to be pointed out by someone that wasn't half retarded sooner or later.
 
Ya. I agree with the post 98%. Pugging in Ruin was ok for about a month, but it got bad fast. 19 Twinks will always be around, it's just not right for all of us anymore. I've played 3-4 pugs on my 19s in the last month and while I sit here reading craigslist looking for another Harley, I don't have that itching desire to log into Wow that I once had. OMG, thoughts are filling my head... I should shooosh before I write a book reply.



The kiddies in the "battlegroup forums" make the game less fun for those with respect for ones self and others, but it was ok because in the WSG, it's not what white kid can rap or win a pillar humping, bandage stock checking, arena wtfomgimmabeast 1v1 - it's about objectives and winning a game.



Well, that's no longer the case. Before I shut down Draynerworld, I made a post referencing how the /bg chat in WSG are becoming just like the "battlegroup forums" now. You know, kinda like barrens chat but with kids looking for eCred by bad mouthing others that they are jealous of. Ya. That's really fun. 2 kids arguing about who is better during a WSG while 3 horde druids run across the field right past them to make to the base to set up a 3-4 healer, 2 mage, 1 hunter, and 1 FC patented horde turtle. Yep. Fun fun...



Enjoy your 19s folks. They will always be there, but there are asshats that are ruining the experience for many. Yes, that includes some of you reading. The Pizza Hut kids... the OMGIWANTDRAYERTODOAMEETTHETWINKSONMEBECAUSEIMPRO douches, hell even some in Fishin Buddies... I was down with the FB plan until they started to change. I guess guilds run by good people can go bad too. I promptly left that guild when I heard of them holding the flag, delaying a game they could have easily won. I want to be no part of that kind of douchebaggery. A guild I used to dislike happens to be the most respectful guild in Ruin right now, Prodigy (now know as <Giddy Up Painaid>). Even though I now love those dudes, I am gonna gquit them in the next couple days since I have no plans to do 19s anymore and I might let someone else play my toons at some point.



Yep, I should have stopped when my head filled up with things to say. Sorry.



TL:DR Version: The OP that the OP quoted is wise. Good read.
 
Admin said:
I was down with the FB plan until they started to change. I guess guilds run by good people can go bad too. I promptly left that guild when I heard of them holding the flag, delaying a game they could have easily won. I want to be no part of that kind of douchebaggery.



This statement is true, its happened in history, not gaming history exactly but actual history... Romans for instance and our percious United States is even slowly falling. By FB, you mean Fishing Buddies, and I never heard of the holding of the flag part. Furthur more, I had no idea you were in the guild Drayner. I guess the only way to stay out of the bullsh!t of the flame wars is to not be in a guild and be a soloist... But even then, your subjected too "OMGJOINMAIGUILDWE'RESOAWESOME" and the constant ":LULW:HERESYOURGUILDSKRUB".



I agree 100% with /bg chat turning into /ruin forum chat. Word spreads quickly when you talk bull about the "DURRIMTHEBESTATWSG" type crap...



I long for a simpler time... Back when killing lowbies was not really a big deal in BG, they were there, they were in the way, when you didn't have to get +2 armor to get BiS, when hunters didn't have cheeta, druids didn't have travel form and shamans couldn't be ghostly bastards.
 
That was indeed a good read. It is sad but true,

Twinking isn't what it used to be, and frankly it never will. All we can do is keep on trying to expand, finding new players to gain an interest in the part of the game that we all enjoy so much, And not just finding them then going LOLUBADDIEWTF! I ROLLED U IN A DUEL! finding them, and then teaching them all we know about the classes they have chose to play. We need to help these new players, so we can gain as many new quality players as we can, THIS is going to help the twinking situation.



I owe my entire twinking knowledge to my GM tom, aka Firetruckk , aka Quiick and many other toons. When I came to the guild, he took a chance on me, helped fund me, taught me everything he knew about my class and practised with me and let me learn, Its due to people behaving in this way that I am still twinking, and still have such an interest in it. So if more people could be as cool about it as him, im sure this Bracket would be thriving with alot of new players, no doubt at first they would be bads, but in time, alot of quality new players.



Also, with the new changes incoming such as Rated BG's at 80. There will be without a doubt, 80's who know the terrain exploits, and will of course use them to their advantage in a rated bg and guaranteed within weeks, they will be fixed. So the terrain exploiters will soon be out of luck tbh.



anyway thats my 2 cents.
 
canihascookie said:
I had no idea you were in the guild Drayner

I was druvs.





Twinking isn't what it used to be, and frankly it never will.

Unfotunately, I agree... It will never be back to the days when twinking lured me in. The days of 1 mark for a loss, 3 for a win... turn them in for Xp... Prior to BC. My bg was fun and the forums were fun to be in. Great play was /saluted and not /spit on. GY campers were kicked from guilds. Terrain exploiters were too... In fact, my arch-rival guild Dominate booted someone for it for me. Those days are long past I guess. Whatever influence I once had, if any, is not enough to turn you all into care bears like me.
 
Restoshaman said:
I owe my entire twinking knowledge to my GM tom, aka Firetruckk , aka Quiick and many other toons. When I came to the guild, he took a chance on me, helped fund me, taught me everything he knew about my class and practised with me and let me learn, Its due to people behaving in this way that I am still twinking, and still have such an interest in it. So if more people could be as cool about it as him, im sure this Bracket would be thriving with alot of new players, no doubt at first they would be bads, but in time, alot of quality new players.



I think this pretty much hits the hammer on the nail. 99%, fuck lets say all of the guilds these days are going to the common "BiS or GTFO" or ":LUL:UDUNNOHAOTOPLAYURCLASS JUSTLVLOUTOFBRACKET". 19's will eventually, not saying today, or tomorrow, or in cata, but think of it. Matthughes (if anyone knows him) played for 5 years, since the game started (Kinda like Admin here) and he is now retiring. The current twinks that are playing will eventually retire, everyone has to grow up sometime in their lives, rather they want to or not...



On the terrain exploiting it is kind of hard to say rather it will be fixed or not... Blizzard will have to do some major repairs and fixes to all the terrain. Fuck, even at level 80, priests can levitate up a wall and be untouchable! I even talked to a GM about the whole levitation glitch and they are working on fixing it. No one knows for sure, but I do have one thing to say...



INC NERFS SOON™



I was Druvs



And now I know...
 
Admin said:
I was druvs. ---- In fact, my arch-rival guild Dominate booted someone for it for me. Those days are long past I guess. Whatever influence I once had, if any, is not enough to turn you all into care bears like me.



Carebear Stare? No; I'm not trying to troll you...I believe everything you pretty much posted Drayner. I also agree with this whole topic. I heard the other day from a member in FB "Get Jutebraid gloves, +2 armor is BiS" and I thought to myself. "Oh lawd, a whole 2 armor is going to save me from a hunter!"



/facepalm



This game has fallen, I've been saying this forever and this only confirms it.
 
Matthughes risked leveling his twink for [item]Captain Sanders' Shirt[/item]. I respect him. :) Bloodlust was the best BG ever, nuf said.
 
Well, I figured that I would pop in my 2 cents on this. Now first off I compeletly agree with the bracket being ruined by the speed increases. The reason why the 10-19 bracket was so awesome to me was because (unlike on my 80) you don't have to worry about mounts or speed difference! Nothing is more irritating that casting fear on a paladin thats SOOAAARING by and getting that anoying "out of range" message. Lets face it; PvP is just more fun without mounts! I also agree with rogues not even being worth using in WSG anymore. I don't know what the deal is, but they don't seem to have anything going for them anymore expect O.K. burst damage. One thing that I don't agree with is all of the discussion about how there are so many "bad players" who are "dueche bags" in PuGs. Think back a long long time ago when we were all flaming dueche bags destroying level 13 mages who were just getting their feet wet into the game. Think back to a time when there was an exploit in the game that YOU abused to get the upper hand on noobs and/or other players. Since when has there been this fair code of conduct? Twinking is fun becuase we are all exploiting a niche in the game that wasn't really supposed to be there, so IMO, everybody should really just chill a bit and just enjoy! Things will always be changing, so why QQ? The game may level out, or power may shift, but untill then it is what is it. If you don't like it, turning EXP back on only costs 10g! Hell, I'll pay it for you!
 
Papertowels said:
Well, I figured that I would pop in my 2 cents on this. Now first off I compeletly agree with the bracket being ruined by the speed increases. The reason why the 10-19 bracket was so awesome to me was because (unlike on my 80) you don't have to worry about mounts or speed difference! Nothing is more irritating that casting fear on a paladin thats SOOAAARING by and getting that anoying "out of range" message. Lets face it; PvP is just more fun without mounts! I also agree with rogues not even being worth using in WSG anymore. I don't know what the deal is, but they don't seem to have anything going for them anymore expect O.K. burst damage. One thing that I don't agree with is all of the discussion about how there are so many "bad players" who are "dueche bags" in PuGs. Think back a long long time ago when we were all flaming dueche bags destroying level 13 mages who were just getting their feet wet into the game. Think back to a time when there was an exploit in the game that YOU abused to get the upper hand on noobs and/or other players. Since when has there been this fair code of conduct? Twinking is fun becuase we are all exploiting a niche in the game that wasn't really supposed to be there, so IMO, everybody should really just chill a bit and just enjoy! Things will always be changing, so why QQ? The game may level out, or power may shift, but untill then it is what is it. If you don't like it, turning EXP back on only costs 10g! Hell, I'll pay it for you!



Like I said in my QQ...



Enjoy your 19s folks. They will always be there, but there are asshats that are ruining the experience for many. Yes, that includes some of you reading.
Some of us didn't enjoy 1 shotting level 13s. Some of us didn't take advantage of the exploits that came about. (I am ashamed of it, but I did bring some of them to the public though. I didn't use them personally, but sharing the info is just as bad and I feel bad for this.)
 
While it was a fine post however, I have to respectfully disagree. I have been in Ruin a year now and have never been faced with the problems stated in the post. While there are many 19s that are well respected there are just as many if not more that get off on being turds. You simply ignore them and do your thing. Take criticism for what it is but by no means let it effect your attitude towards the 19 bracket as a whole. As far as the forum trolls and all that, leave them there. Dont give those knuckleheads any satisfaction, again just play your game. As with any change that has hit our community you have to adapt, improvise and overcome. If you feel you are incapable then by a means best of luck to you in your search for happiness.



Moving to Ruin was the best move I made in this game. Plenty of games to go around, I have made several new friends, lots and lots of premades and I have improved my game play. I encourage anyone to do the same, and keep on firing up the 19 warsongs.
 
Its sad because its true, and the fact im only playing wow for my 19s is a little uncomforting; because even im starting to dislike PuGing wsg. Not saying EU BO doesnt have any good games; because at times we do; but recently its just come down to
chase-the-jump-exploiting-druid-up-to-the-gy-over-the-tunnel-up-to-the-roof
, and now its not even just druids its half the bracket.

Regarding:

Now first off I compeletly agree with the bracket being ruined by the speed increases

Dont really believe that to the core; seeing as anyone with half a brain COULD get past this, natures grasp--dispell--Hamstring spam/wing clip spam/stun-scare beast. . .

Its mainly the players; and how if everyone isnt playing a faceroll retardin, its a huntard, and by huntard i mean no offence to the people who try win the game by chasing efcs and healers. Im talking about the morons who gank in packs just streaming midfield and once they hunters mark you; they will be on you till you die; pure tunnel vision.

I agree that twinking will never be the same; the nice community it was; now its just #1 EU, i r da best bra.
 
Out b4 things went BAD!!!! (well maybe a lil later)



Really though I am sick of these posts, 19s has never been balanced. The speed boost that some classes got are looked at like it is godlike, imo it's not a big deal, in-fact from a premading perspective travel form was a gift form the gods for my O to rip apart, it made our games 70% faster. And in PuGs if played right it can be the same way. End game classes have their moments of being OP, but then they get fixed and things stay somewhat balanced. My point is no one is making you play in a bracket where balance wont come. This is not Blizzards fault as many people will blame, they never intended to have twinks and look that how hard it is for them just to try to keep classes balanced in pvp and pve with hybrid specs and all that jazz, really I do not blame them for not looking at anything but end game.



More people playing on one BG means more douchbags, nuff' said about that.



I have to disagree with the statment about the "PuGging community". really? really? Is there really such a thing? I have never seen one, maybe I overlooked it, but Premading and sadly arenas are what will keep the twink community going. I doubt bad pugs will impact the outcome of it at all.



Here's hoping that Cataclysm brings an end to twinking for good, my end game ques could really be shorter.









also one last thing and I know that very few will agree with me here, but skrim arenas were the real fall in what was a great thing in this game.
 
I agree with most of what was said in the original post. It is very sad. WSG used to be much more enjoyable with no time limit. Increasing it to about an hour would make it better I think. The game was not all about chasing the Efc up walls & on the tunnel roofs etc or meant to be that way.
 
I was down with the FB plan until they started to change. I guess guilds run by good people can go bad too. I promptly left that guild when I heard of them holding the flag, delaying a game they could have easily won. I want to be no part of that kind of douchebaggery.

This made me laugh. Yes them terrible GY camping fishin buddies. I heard they held the flag for 4 minutes, omg, that must of made the alliance so sad for those 4 minutes. What will they ever do?
 
Speed increases didn't really change anything besides getting across mid quicker. Hell they made most people twice as bad at FCing because they think all they have to do is get outside and travel form out of danger. It's like people can't handle a few douchebags trashing them so their excuse is that "this bracket sucks anyway"
 

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