Fiery on my level 16 twink

[iaccidentallytwink]

I was going to apply Fiery to my [ITEM]Wingblade[/ITEM] on my 16 twink for MH use, but then I stopped and considering putting it in my OH and putting Fiery on [ITEM]Buzz Saw[/ITEM]. Using SS I will get just about the same Yellow attacks, and using Wingblade in my OH will give me a solid OH DPS. Wingblade is also faster, so more hits in the OH (not for interruption, for less misses.) Lastly, the DPS difference is 1.7 from autoattacks alone.



Now, for the Fiery math:



Using Wingblade;

In 44 seconds, I will have 31 chances for it to proc, including Sinister Strike.

It will proc about 5.71362 times in those 44 seconds.

17.314% chance to proc with a Wingblade attack every 1.4193548387096774193548387096774 seconds.

Overall, Fiery will add 4.8794000000000000000000000000002 DPS to this weapon.



Using Buzz Saw;

In 48 seconds, I will have 32 chances for it to proc, including Sinister Strike.

It will proc about 6.04416 times in those 48 seconds.

18.888% chance to proc with a Buzz Saw attack every 1.5 seconds.

Overall, Fiery will add 5.0368000000000000000000000000005 DPS to this weapon.



Using Buzz Saw in my mainhand adds 0.1574 DPS from fiery, and I lose 0.6926 from having Wingblade in my OH.



I guess Wingblade in MH wins.



15 Agility adds 2.410714285714285714285714285713 DPS overall. This includes 1 SS every 4 seconds. What this means is that in the Mainhand, Fiery is far superior on almost all weapons.



Fiery in the Offhand;

Basically, all my math is valid here, but the DPS increase is simply lowered by 19%, and the Sinister Strike math is ommited. This will lead to an equal DPS increase with Fiery in the offhand, but the faster weapon will miss less.



All weapons have a 6.3747% chance to proc this per second in the offhand. This math includes offhand miss calculations.

This means that it adds 2.54988 DPS if it is in your offhand. Compare this with 2.410714285714285714285714285713 DPS added from the +15 Agility enchant. Using a faster weapon in your offhand may yield better results with Fiery.





This thread was created to help me test out my math. This math should be valid for any weapon speeds when comparing Fiery and to whatever weapon you want to use it on. I will be making an Excel Spreadsheet with all these formulas soon for all the derps out there that can't do the math on their own. Just kidding, it'll make it faster for everyone. If you find any error in my math, PLEASE let me know.



This math is all only valid for rogues with 2 points in Improved Sinister Strike.

 

[User]

.

Cool so you have proven what should be by now exoteric knowledge for all rogue twinks. Highest DPS weapon goes MH with fiery (speed invariant). 15 agil OH. 15/15 for rogue duels.

 

[iaccidentallytwink]

Cool so you have proven what should be by now exoteric knowledge for all rogue twinks. Highest DPS weapon goes MH with fiery (speed invariant). 15 agil OH. 15/15 for rogue duels.

I haven't seen any actual math on the exact DPS given, only assumptions.

 

[Ymir]

I'm not sure where the 'faster weapon will miss less' stuff comes from? I think you forgot to increase your offhand dps when you put wingblade in it, as a 1.7 dps loss would seem to indicate dual buzz saws. 0.85 loss I would think?





Also keep in mind that the numbers will skew in favor of a slow mainhand with fiery if you are jousting or being kited. The only other thing I wanted to mention is that dual wield miss penalty applies to all white attacks, both mainhand and offhand.



What proc rate are you using for fiery btw? 4.7 ppm?

 

[iaccidentallytwink]

The 1.7 DPS loss is from white damage. Faster weapon will miss less is simply because there's an 81% chance to hit. It's the same as SS'ing to proc more. Faster (more) hits is less misses and more chances to proc.

 

[Ymir]

The 1.7 DPS loss is from white damage. Faster weapon will miss less is simply because there's an 81% chance to hit. It's the same as SS'ing to proc more. Faster (more) hits is less misses and more chances to proc.

More hits with less chance to proc due to the weapon being faster. It's supposed to even out, that's how PPM works. If your math is showing otherwise I'd take a close look at it.



Oh and yes I understand the 1.7 dps loss is from changing your mainhand from a 15.7 to a 14.0 dps weapon, I just think you forgot to include the 0.85 dps gain from changing your offhand from a 14.0 dps weapon to a 15.7 dps weapon.



Are you using a 4.7 ppm for fiery btw? I only ask because I wanted to add a little bit about procs, slow mainhands, and jousting/kited bursts, and want to use the same proc rate you are using. Or well, never mind actually, I'll just use the percentages given.

 

[iaccidentallytwink]

More hits with less chance to proc due to the weapon being faster. It's supposed to even out, that's how PPM works. If your math is showing otherwise I'd take a close look at it.



Oh and yes I understand the 1.7 dps loss is from changing your mainhand from a 15.7 to a 14.0 dps weapon, I just think you forgot to include the 0.85 dps gain from changing your offhand from a 14.0 dps weapon to a 15.7 dps weapon.



Are you using a 4.7 ppm for fiery btw? I only ask because I wanted to add a little bit about procs, slow mainhands, and jousting/kited bursts, and want to use the same proc rate you are using. Or well, never mind actually, I'll just use the percentages given.

I'm using a 6 PPM rate, as tested for Lifestealing and Fiery.

Yes, I forgot the .85 DPS gained, thank you.

And as for the more hits, I meant from hits and misses alone. The proc rate is the same, but missing more means it will proc less. The more you hit, the less you miss.

 

[darzk]

Okay, no clue what your math says.



Heres the deal. Offhand and Mainhand weapon attacks have a 24% chance to miss, 19% with 5% hit from gear and talents (which you should have if you can at 16, I know you would at 19).



Lets assume youve got your 5% hit for the sake of making this easier.



Now, in 1/2 a minute, Fiery will proc 3 times, assuming you hit every attack and use no specials. with 19% miss, fiery will proc 2.43 times.



In 1/2 a minute, you can use around 10 improved SS's. (10 energy per second, 30 seconds, +100 starting energy, 40 energy cost).



Wingblade has a 2.2 speed, so a 22% chance to proc fiery.

Buzz Saw has a 2.4 speed, so a 24% chance to proc fiery.



In half a minute of combat, with SS's, on average:

Wingblade: 8.1 SS's (Base 34.5 dmg) + 1.78 fierys from SS's + 2.43 Fierys from whites.

Buzz Saw: 8.1 SS's (Base 33.5 dmg) + 1.95 fierys from ss's + 2.43 Fierys from whites.



1 less damage per ss and 8.1 ss's - Buzz saw will gvie you 8.1 less dmg in 30 seconds from Sinister Strikes. However, in that time we have 0.17 extra fiery procs, around 6.8 damage.



However, consider that every class has at LEAST 20% armor reduction - so the damage output is the exact same on low armor classes, and Buzz Saw in MH has better dps against higher armored classes.

__________________________________________________________________________

TLDR:

Buzz Saw in MH will give you a tiny bit less SS damage, but a tiny bit more fiery procs, evening out to the exact same dps with 20% armor. Against classes with more than 20% armor (almost all of them), Fiery on Buzz Blade MH will be your best option, with wingblade in the offhand.

 

[Ymir]

I'm using a 6 PPM rate, as tested for Lifestealing and Fiery.

Yes, I forgot the .85 DPS gained, thank you.

And as for the more hits, I meant from hits and misses alone. The proc rate is the same, but missing more means it will proc less. The more you hit, the less you miss.

Each swing has an 81% chance to hit. You're going to miss 19% of the time no matter what weapon speed you use....



I can't figure how you got 18.888 and 17.314% if you're using 6 ppm, would you mind showing how you got those numbers?

 

[darzk]

Missing a little bit of info:

Are you sure offhands get -50% damage? I thought they just got a reduced component of attackpower?



If they get -50% dmg, not -50% ap coefficient:



-0.85 dps from using wingblade in OH

25.5 dmg over 30 seconds

No way to have Buzz Blade better in MH.



:*(

 

[Ymir]

Just figured out a 3second burst for each with 210 ap assuming fiery on the mainhand, not on the offhand. Not much difference (around 0.2% in favor of buzz saw), so looks like wingblade main is the way to go, due to the better sustained. If your AP is higher it will skew further in favor of buzz saw on bursts, but probably not by enough to make up the difference.

 

[iaccidentallytwink]

Just figured out a 3second burst for each with 210 ap assuming fiery on the mainhand, not on the offhand. Not much difference (around 0.2% in favor of buzz saw), so looks like wingblade main is the way to go, due to the better sustained. If your AP is higher it will skew further in favor of buzz saw on bursts, but probably not by enough to make up the difference.

I'm at 207 AP, thanks for the extra math guys, I'll be sticking with Wingblade.

 

[iaccidentallytwink]

I can't figure how you got 18.888 and 17.314% if you're using 6 ppm, would you mind showing how you got those numbers?

Weapon Speed * 7.87. I got the number from an old blog that calculated the PPM of Fiery and gave the formula for getting the proc chance per swing.

 

[egmoller]

Kewl post ^^

 

[darzk]

Just figured out a 3second burst for each with 210 ap assuming fiery on the mainhand, not on the offhand. Not much difference (around 0.2% in favor of buzz saw), so looks like wingblade main is the way to go, due to the better sustained. If your AP is higher it will skew further in favor of buzz saw on bursts, but probably not by enough to make up the difference.

Remember that SS is normalized, so they you actually will *always* hit harder on SS's with wingblade, by around 1 dmg. Your white hits will be larget from Buzz saw, however.



Would Wingblade MH and Buzzer Blade offhand be the best combo? 2.5% crit or something at lvl 16 is a far higher dps burst than having an extra 1 dps on your offhand.

 

[Ymir]

Remember that SS is normalized, so they you actually will *always* hit harder on SS's with wingblade, by around 1 dmg. Your white hits will be larget from Buzz saw, however.



Would Wingblade MH and Buzzer Blade offhand be the best combo? 2.5% crit or something at lvl 16 is a far higher dps burst than having an extra 1 dps on your offhand.

Yeah I did account for that



Not too sure on the buzzer blade but at first glance I'd be inclined to say yes, it's a better option. With 207 AP you actually deal pretty significant damage in a 3 second window (something near 450 damage with each of the setups posted, assuming no misses, parries, or dodges, and before mitigation).



The thing that would be more significant is the faster speed and smaller hits. If you stick to your target for 2.4 seconds with the other setups, you get the full ~450 damage. Between 2.4 and 2.9 seconds, both the listed setups will do more damage. Between 1.5 and 2.3 seconds, buzzer will do more. At 3 seconds, they'll be fairly close.



The reason I use the 3 second burst idea is because there is no waiting for energy involved, you'll get 3 SS, and weapon speeds tend to allow 2 hits each in that time frame. Buzzer blade stretches that concept by being a 1.5 speed weapon, allowing 3 hits if you are in range for exactly 3 seconds. The reality is that you only need 2 seconds to land 3 sinister strikes (ss/gcd+ss/gcd+ss = 3 ss, 2 rogue gcd).



Basically the whole 3 second burst concept is pretty poor for comparing weapons of widely differing speeds Unless your weapons are decided and you're just trying to figure out which one should go in the mainhand that is.

 

[iaccidentallytwink]

I've been using Buzzer Blade in OH for my Arena Battles, so I'm already set with that (15 agi on it). Should I use Wingblade Fiery and Buzzer Blade 15 Agi then? Or is Buzz Saw still a considerable option?

 

[Ymir]

Statistically, buzzer blade.



For real pvp situations, I was going to say buzz saw, but then I realized that most rogues you'll be fighting will be using dual barbs or what have you, and you want to stick, not joust, since they're at 2.8 weapon speed, and other melee will be using even slower weapons, making buzzer blade again the better option.



For situations where you are being kited.... buzz saw is going to be the better choice here.

 

[iaccidentallytwink]

Actually, bad explanation

Rofl. I got through reading all that too.

I guess I'll be using Buzzer Blade in Arenas most of the time as I've always done.

 

[Deadhed]

fml i wish i understood this junk



never played a rogue so ive never had to bother with this mess