Feel free to rip me a new one, but...

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Batts said:
Excellent rightups and points made all around. Especially anatomyx.

In my mind's eye, I have a vision of 1-2 people on each side defending, forcing a smaller force to commit to mid, not to mention the escort needed to get past the defenders. Would lead to a smaller force clashing in mid altogether, with other skirmishes happening across the map in tandem as both teams jock for advantageous postion. The team able to

1. thwart enemy defenders
2. win an advantageous midfield situation
3. delay/deny a flag pick

would win the cap.

But, as it's been said, what's to stop it from just being a 9man zerg taking mid by storm, then eradicating the defenders, then swooping back around as 10 to kill EFC?
It sounds slightly better to me than the current 8-9v9 from start to finish while FCs dance around the sides of the map and sit waiting.... but not by enough to really consider.

Do you think midstrat evolved around the need to be in a more dominant position to kill druid fcs, or rdruid fcs are just the one tailormade exception of something that CAN get past midstrat?
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It's just the fact the EFC's are slowed is usually the time the midfield thats winning goes in and sets up their kill, FC can't outrun classes that has mounts/increased moving abilities + CC.

So what you normally do is bring almost everyone in to thwart the other teams MID, then you send your hunter and rogue to kill the EFC. While your are mid you cannot let anyone get past as they will be able to assist getting the EFC across easier. If the rogue and hunter can't kill EFC. You just get afew more player's to go back and finish the job. Usually you want to keep your strong DPS at the front line in mid most the time.

If you say you use your rogue to assist your FC across, thats 1 extra player your losing mid. Usally that means you have a higher chance of losing mid, the other team will send players back to help finish the job once their FC is secure.
 
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Either way, we going of into hypothetical theories, no point saying things that won't be changed, well not at least in the near future.

Overall picture, i can't see a solution to how the games can be changed.
 
Livingforce said:
Either way, we going of into hypothetical theories, no point saying things that won't be changed, well not at least in the near future.

Overall picture, i can't see a solution to how the games can be changed.
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The thread was made for hypothetical theories. If anything, the past 2 pages have been the most civil and interesting to read out of everything posted this revival.

It's similar to asking what you would do in a zombie apocalypse. It will never happen, but interesting to discuss!
 
Yeah, as someone who likes playing objectives, I like to defend/return. As a WW I can Pmuch do that solo in a pug scene. But even though I could stick to an rdruid for longer than anything but a hunter, if I have to spam disable on CD to keep him shifting/snared, I'm not doing damage. I can force a trink with a well timed fists, which could mean death when crossing, but in pugs I'm not gonna be able to return on my own, and 98% of the time nobody is there to help me, as they see trying to damage a DRUID at low stacks is utterly futile.

I guess Rdruid needs to stay in the current iteration. Even though it hurts variety, it's the mid "strat" itself that is destroying variety. Similarly my team has a much better chance of winning at mid and consequently going for EFC together if I'm on my warrior -- shoehorning me into a spec/class/role I enjoy playing less, but need to because it's more effective.

The most we can do as a bracket(which we have been!) is limiting the things that make even the midfight MORE unenjoyable, like unkillable frontline DPS and unstoppable EFC 1shotters.

I'd rather not turn this off the initial premise, and I'll say it's been an enjoyable thought exercise.

edit: to summarize the first paragraph, I tried by my own efforts to shift the meta ever so slightly towards at least needing escort to pick/run flag across, and the barest-bone defense, to liven up the way we do things past what everybody got comfortable with at 19... but to no avail in a pug scene. I realize the strat could work in a premade much better, though. So I came here to see what others think of the current meta, and how it might possibly be better if things were changed here or there, and what their effects would be.

Next hypothetical: How much better would games be if Alliance got in Teamspeak!? :rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
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This was a huge issue with 29 wargames in MoP getting stale. One of the options we never tried was forcing a FC to go back into the base and "tag" the flag cap periodically. This would force some kind of breakup as each team would try to capitalize on the temporary breakup of either team.
 
Skrubform said:
nobody said ban fc druids. clearly you are the one having issues with reading comprehension. I am willing to bet I have quite a bit more high end comp experience behind me than 98% of TI in its entirety so I know game theory pretty well.

I agree with it when it comes to playing competitively however this is a different issue when it is a determining factor of whether a bracket actually exists or not due to the "FUN" aspect of it. If people dont enjoy playing 39's then the bracket ceases to exist in its entirety. The whole "play to win at all costs" and "dont ban things" no longer applies as concretely as it normally would. When there is a community that can keep things going then yes by all means everything should play like it is. Look at 20-29 bracket due to F2P's. The bracket has really no way of dying out because of lvl 20's so there is no point in doing anything about "pug" play in terms of bans/exclusions etc. Wargames is up to whoever is doing them whatever they agree on. But 39, can die literally today if roughly 10 people just up and stopped playing(maybe a slight # change but i think you get the idea) If making adjustments to meta/gameplay/skills/classes whatever encourages a higher enjoyment of the game for a larger amount of players increasing the playerbase and the quality of those games then it should be implemented.

I don't understand how this is hard to comprehend, but then again.. not everybody was in line when common sense was handed out.



** Sadly I agree that the meta has formed into something that will be extremely hard to change because zerg play is just too strong** Cool idea to think about though having different diverse fcs/classes in game.
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I said that a RDruid ban would be warranted, given that they outclass everything else by quite a margin. Note that everything here`s a hypothetical 'woulda-shoulda-coulda'-land scenario. I didn`t say that this should actually be done, but an actual ban, at least temporary, would probably be the most compelling reason to try something else than the tried-and-true RDruid FC.
 
Shook said:
You still are not understanding what this thread is about. No one is complaining about RDruids and are requesting a ban. No one wants to discuss strats to beat Rdruid. It is to think about how much more diverse the games could be if rdruid wasnt a required FC.

Again i ask... If rdruids were out of the picture, what fc would you run?
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I have not stated that we ban Druids, please find a quote where I did. In fact, the very first question the OP asked was..."Do you think the bracket would be better off without FC Druids?"
And I have been sticking to that subject.
Perhaps you need reread what the OP intended and it is you that is misunderstanding. And you need a little more BG "seasoning". For there are many classes that are quite cabable at running the flag. All part of the "strategic section" that you did not come here to discuss. What classes do you think twinks turned to before Druids had travel form?
You really should not keep such a closed mind.
Have a wonderful day...
 
L
housewife said:
Many people have already stated this isn't a thread discussing banning rdruid fc's, nor is it about countering them.
This thread is a discussion about a break from the meta.
It feels like you didn't read all of the OP. Because you keep coming back to, "You guys just want to ban Rdruids".
If you had read the OP you'd have seen that that was not the intention of this thread.

"I'm not asking for rdruid fcs to be banned, just maybe some testing or thought in general." - OP
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Apparently you didn't either. No where did I suggest a ban. It is not even about the subject of other Flag Carriers. It is totally and solely about whether or not the bracket would be better off without Druids. And I answered that. And I even gave reasons. It is you all that skewed the topic, not me.
Do my answers really have to be black and white or ones and zeros for you all to understand them? Sheesh.... I can break it down if you like.
I am paraphrasing.
OP- Do think we would be better off without Druids?
Me- Druids have been FCs for years. ( for all of you that fail to understand. This means NO. ) I then go on to state- You just have to find alternate strategies.( my reason for stating NO).

See how simple it really is?
All I did was answer the OPs question. And you all twisted it completely around.
 
We did try out BM FCs and they're easily 10 times better than a Rdruid FC.

The only "fair" FCs are Warriors / Paladins. And in this meta, fair isn't good enough.
 
Batts said:
Hear me out first.

Do you think the bracket would be better off without Rdruid FCs?

Been thinking about it for the last hour or so...

Never been a fan of any part of a fight being meaningless. And I feel with specifically rdruids, the entire fight is meaningless until FCs are at high stacks.

When a druid can cross map basically every time on his own, even with 1 person dedicated chasing + maybe 1-2 people who peel out to help contest the cross, he can make it to his team -- and past them to some spot he can sit, knowing he'll be fine till higher stacks. If his team dies at mid, he has the maneuverability to rotate around till his team is full ressed at GY. Blink, dash, constant shifting, and adequate self heals from NS/CW(usable in bear form, and all without the tank flag debuff) put it above the mark where anything else is comparable.

It leaves the entire midfight as just padding until however long it takes to get high enough stacks to oneshot him with a rogue+other. With any other sort of FC, it takes a much more orchestrated effort as a group to support it. Positioning and team play is more important. It adds pressure to the midfight, as the FC will more than likely die with his group.

I think if teams had to support their FCs a bit more, it'd lead to more involved gameplay all around. Even a boomkin would need a bit of support, with the weaker self heals.

If I'm wrong, feel free to refute my points!
I'm not asking for rdruid fcs to be banned, just maybe some testing or thought in general. I know the majority of this bracket is in it for making the best games possible.
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FC durids aren't a thing any more, get with the program, there is a new bis FC which can survive extremely high stacks.
 
Boostz said:
Alleybeboba please stop. You're ridiculous.
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In what way am I "ridiculous" ? If you mean by keeping on topic. Then I will keep on being "ridiculous".


For years, before Druids obtained travel form, we had many classes that carried that flags. I have seen Hunters excel at flag carrying. Even warlocks and frost mages... People here are stuck in a rut.
We want to keep banning "this" and banning "that". And why? Because they can't figure out a way to counter it. Well, figure out a way to counter it.
This topic IS a discussion specifically about whether or not we "are better off without Druid FCs". And part of my discussion is no, because all we need to do is counter them. How much simpler can it be? A shaman is practically just as fast, has more armor, can root/snare, heal, CC, dispel... A MW has plenty of CC breaker and are quite speedy, have insta heals, dispels, HoTs...
No one wants to be an FC unless they are a Druid. And very few want to be healers. The majority of people want to be DPS.
As a comparison, look at the number of toons of any twink bracket's armory. And look at the ratio of DPS vs dedicated healers.
 
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