Enhancement shaman vs. rogue
- Thread starter Brokeboi
- Start date
Rogues have RNGbased 50% slow, yet its likely to be easier to keep up on target than the shammies version
Rogues get shadowstep
Rogues get more burst with ambush
Rogues have kick and gouge, so more interruptability, though not ranged.
Rogues have sap
Shamans have Purge
Shamans have windshear which is ranged and very short CD.
Shamans have earthbind totem, reliable group CC
Shamans will have efficient, yet small heals on a long cast time
Shamans have GW, yet it has a 1sec cast time
Imo they're oranges and apples. They will both have different utilities, roles and play styles so you cant really say that one is the better melee dps than the other. It seems to me that both could possibly hold a premade spot in cata.
Rogues get shadowstep
Rogues get more burst with ambush
Rogues have kick and gouge, so more interruptability, though not ranged.
Rogues have sap
Shamans have Purge
Shamans have windshear which is ranged and very short CD.
Shamans have earthbind totem, reliable group CC
Shamans will have efficient, yet small heals on a long cast time
Shamans have GW, yet it has a 1sec cast time
Imo they're oranges and apples. They will both have different utilities, roles and play styles so you cant really say that one is the better melee dps than the other. It seems to me that both could possibly hold a premade spot in cata.
elemental will be playing spellhance anyway, so the same role would be filled by the same class, just with different spec and gear.
pilgrim
Legend
Why is it that people think spell hance will still be viable? You miss out on the advantages of speccing into either spec by doing that?
Enhance picks up a second melee ability to go with the first, stacking Agi adds up here. Dual wield completely outways a need to pick up any spellpower, along with a passive 30 % AP to spell power buff.
And Enhance gains the knockback attack, which is pretty big for defending rooftops, along with lava burst, you have to stack Int to make it work.
Spell hance should not exist in cataclysm, and if it does, chances are your doing it wrong...
Enhance picks up a second melee ability to go with the first, stacking Agi adds up here. Dual wield completely outways a need to pick up any spellpower, along with a passive 30 % AP to spell power buff.
And Enhance gains the knockback attack, which is pretty big for defending rooftops, along with lava burst, you have to stack Int to make it work.
Spell hance should not exist in cataclysm, and if it does, chances are your doing it wrong...
pilgrim said:
You really think so? The rogue gets ShadowStep, a shorter CD on sprint and a 50% that isnt hard to keep on the target. A shaman gets ghostwolf which at best has a 1sec cast which he cant effectively attack from and earthbind which against a skilled target you cant keep up for long. To me it seems the rogue will have more ToT.
pilgrim
Legend
Kore nametooshort said:
LOL Time one target is good for damage, but you are far more useful if you can get to targets in the first place. Ghost wolf functions as a mount, that kind of advantage outways any other buff I can think of. Anywhere the fight is, you can get there faster then anyone else. You are not completely helpless when it comes to staying on target either, as earthbind will keep people close enough long enough to kill them. Think about 50% movement to charge some one, (after glyph) Earthbind, auto attack, 2x melee attack, Flame shock, followed by another round of melee beats with them trying to escape. Even at range you get a good enough finisher in lava burst. And one second wait for a 50% speed increase means that you will be o your target after 2-3 seconds anyway.
There is a reason hunters, druids, and shamans dominate, and its solely because of movement advantages. Warriors are only better then rogues today because of hamstring.
Its one of the reason higher brackets have seemingly better balance, every class is viable, because movement does not define power as much as it does at 19s.
Rogues used to dominate with hunters because they both had the best movement style abilitys. Rogues were the only class with any sort of speed increase, and hunters could not only move while firing over a great distance, but also control movement very well also.
Sprint, shadowstep and stealth fill that niche for rogues. They will both be able to get to the fight, and once there the rogue will produce the most damage and force the enemy to play defensively. Yes GW is better from that perspective, but the amount of ToT that the rogue will have, aswell as its superior interrupts will make it more deadly.
Dont get me wrong, shamans will have some excellent utility and will be just as viable, but they will fill different roles to rogues. I dont see a shaman being fielded purely for his OMG ZERG ability, whereas a rogue could be.
Edit: When i said spellhance i was refering purely to the gearing and playstyle, not the spec. I see shamans being most useful as elemental but with similar gear and playstyle to 3.3.5. The mana pools of an elemental would be far better than pure enhance and the elemental would have more utility and similar damage with thunderstorm.
Edit2: dual int enchants would gimp dps by a large proportion. it would lower white dps by 8, assuming dual fiery is the alternative, which is huge, and that doesnt take into account procs from yellow attacks.
Dont get me wrong, shamans will have some excellent utility and will be just as viable, but they will fill different roles to rogues. I dont see a shaman being fielded purely for his OMG ZERG ability, whereas a rogue could be.
Edit: When i said spellhance i was refering purely to the gearing and playstyle, not the spec. I see shamans being most useful as elemental but with similar gear and playstyle to 3.3.5. The mana pools of an elemental would be far better than pure enhance and the elemental would have more utility and similar damage with thunderstorm.
Edit2: dual int enchants would gimp dps by a large proportion. it would lower white dps by 8, assuming dual fiery is the alternative, which is huge, and that doesnt take into account procs from yellow attacks.
yesreally
Legend
I was under the impression all the class abilities were learnt from the trainer and it doesnt matter what spec you are? seeming as you can get them @ level 10? (meaning only 1 talent point, or do you get talent points from 1-10 now also?) Please tell me otherwise if i am mistaken.
http://www.wowtal.com/#k=.9x5.shaman
This is the shammy talents, i don't see anything about earthshield, thunderstorm etc being linked to their relevant talent tree's?
http://www.wowtal.com/#k=.9x5.shaman
This is the shammy talents, i don't see anything about earthshield, thunderstorm etc being linked to their relevant talent tree's?
pilgrim
Legend
Missboom said:
Yeah, my bad, I was typing different then what I was thinking, Ele gets Thunderstorm, so If you are playing for spell damage it makes much more sense then going enhance.
Enhance
Dual wield
2x melee attacks
30% ap as SP
6% spell cost reduction
Faster ghost wolf
I could definately see why if you wanted to play a caster style it would look good to you, But I dont think -1 second cast time of ghost wolf would be worth the loss of thunderstorm.
And persoanlly if im playing enhance im going max AP with dual 15 agility enchants, thats 60 Ap. With BoA weapons, im sure the damage bonus will easily outway Spellhance.
Spellhance is good now because shamans have no active melee abilitys. The instant damage that enhance will be able to put out will easily rival anything a rogue can do, and will outway the drawback of cast times that spellhance will have. With purges giving a benifit that rogues will not have. Their self healing and group healing with the 30% ap to spell power conversion vastly outways a rogues pure zerg ability, and I would bet quite a bit that their damage is very close to the same.
Shamans do have one of the best spell interupts in the game, as its ranged. Not as good as gouge and kick. But I would take purge over any of those any day.
Rogues "Slow" is a 50% chance off of Ambush to slow. Its not spamable, and it requires a set of circumstances to even be usable. For instance, if they are moving at ghost wolf speed it will be much harder to slow them, and as you move slower yourself will trying to do it, it has drawbacks. Shadow step is very good and can combo for the drawback of ambush, but in ghost wolf you can slow me for a few seconds but if it misses, or once its up I am free again. With the totem it applies much more easily and has minimal drawbacks if used correctly.
I really like rogues myself, but I dont think they are as good as Shaman will be. Shaman can make bad players good, while rogues require a better player to excel with it. A skilled player will dominate, but a bad player would benifit more from something else.
yesreally said:
When you put your first talent into a spec you receive a move that is unique to that tree.
@Pilgrim.
Kore nametooshort said:
I think you're arguing the same side of the point as i am in your 3rd paragraph.
It is also applied by backstab. Granted it is a 50% chance, but with the changes to sprint as well as Shadow Step it wont be too hard to reapply if it falls off.
Wind Shear does have its advantages, but the throughput of a rogue, as well as having gouge and kick and ShS sap etc mean they will be able to pressure a healer far better than a shaman can. Purge is so useful now because it creates huge mana problems for the enemy healer. This is only possible because pugre is so cheap. In cata healers will be having 3 times the amount of mp5, while the elemental shaman will have very, very little mp5. In addition to this the cost of purge is significantly increasing. At the moment purge is so much more feared than dispell magic in the 19 bracket because of its cost. Its dirt cheap meaning its spammable. DM is not spammable, in fact i relish any opportunity to oom a priest that is too cavalier with DM. In cata purge will become more like DM, thus less useful against casters. I would take the rogues interrupts over purge. Windshear is nice, but its range is the only attraction, since i usually just eat windshears than fake through them, its just not worth it.
