Do you know how to program, and do you dislike dishonest use of jump macros?

[Chops]

So a jump macro is the same as a mouse over macro? Moderators on this site seem quite special

I was asking, though I can see how that might not have been entirely clear.

Im unsure of the mechanics of the macro but it seems that if the effect is that it reduces the physical inputs necessary to play the game and allows you to do two things with one press (move forward and jump) then its not entirely unlike a mouse-over which allows you to bypass having to click when switching between targets. Or really any in-game macro that allows you to bind several items/abilities together.

I guess what Im asking is... how is this macro functionally different from those?

 

[Selaya]

no, i understood you perfectly fine.
you are trying to shame jump macro users, which is a form of soft banning. that however would be both pointless and futile ergo, troll.

 

[macrogodx]

I was asking, though I can see how that might not have been entirely clear.

Im unsure of the mechanics of the macro but it seems that if the effect is that it reduces the physical inputs necessary to play the game and allows you to do two things with one press (move forward and jump) then its not entirely unlike a mouse-over which allows you to bypass having to click when switching between targets. Or really any in-game macro that allows you to bind several items/abilities together.

I guess what Im asking is... how is this macro functionally different from those?

Fair enough boss, I'm sorry for calling you special. I supposes Selaya's hostility made me reach premature assumptions about all forum staff. I'll go to bed for now but respond some time tomorrow <3

no, i understood you perfectly fine.
you are trying to shame jump macro users, which is a form of soft banning. that however would be both pointless and futile ergo, troll.

No you clearly do not. I want to spread honesty around the use of jump macro usage and not shame anyone. I want beastly natty jumpers to get some extra praise for competing in the same bracket as those on roids.

This can be done without shaming anyone else believe it or not

 

[Selaya]

[ ... ]


No you clearly do not. I want to spread honesty around the use of jump macro usage and not shame anyone. I want beastly natty jumpers to get some extra praise for competing in the same bracket as those on roids.

This can be done without shaming anyone else believe it or not

the very definition of shaming can be accomplished without shaming anyone.
nice one, you almost got me here champ!

(as for people being dishonest about jump macro usage why, it's because of fucking assknight autists like you, duh.)

 

[Bestworld]

If someone claims to be legit, shares their content but refuses to provide proof of their legitimacy then that just makes them even more supicious which is good enough in my eyes

This is also dangerous thinking though. That's literally forcing people to comply with using a third party software, unbeknownst to them, just to satisfy some rando doubters. The experienced players will be able to tell who's bullshitting anyways, so the "accused" literally gains nothing, or has no reason to prove anything, because the players they'll satisfy are literally irrelevant to them.

Best is to just let the new players gradually get an understanding and naturally form their own opinions than forcing one on them. Otherwise, you might build a discrepancy between actually new players and those who have come to an understanding of the bracket.

If a player is not transparent about their macro usage and someone gets bamboozled by it, then that'll eventually bite the macro player in the ass later on as the other person will know the truth sooner or later by either gaining the experience to be able to tell for themselves, or hear from other experienced players.

I can tell you with 100% certainty that if you put in an actual real amount of hours, you'll be able to tell who's macroing and who's not. The twinking brackets aren't "that" big. You'll easily be able to get enough sample games to be able to tell. It's not that big of a deal.

And if it hit anyone that hard that a person was untruthful about macroing a jump, then they aren't gonna have a great time in life...

But again, your time and efforts, I'm just being a realist here, really.

 

[Selaya]

This is also dangerous thinking though. That's literally forcing people to comply with using a third party software, unbeknownst to them, just to satisfy some rando doubters. The experienced players will be able to tell who's bullshitting anyways, so the "accused" literally gains nothing, or has no reason to prove anything, because the players they'll satisfy are literally irrelevant to them.

[ ... ]

what is virtue signalling

Anyways.
While I can certainly see the OPs point this could not possibly be the more wrong approach. This is like, fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity wrong.

If you want people to be honest about a certain behavior, you first have to make said behavior socially acceptable. The OP is clearly advocating for the exact opposite. That'll never work.

 

[ohti]

cringe thread

 

[macrogodx]

I was asking, though I can see how that might not have been entirely clear.


Im unsure of the mechanics of the macro but it seems that if the effect is that it reduces the physical inputs necessary to play the game and allows you to do two things with one press (move forward and jump) then its not entirely unlike a mouse-over which allows you to bypass having to click when switching between targets. Or really any in-game macro that allows you to bind several items/abilities together.


I guess what Im asking is... how is this macro functionally different from those?

Well the difference is clearly that simple mouse over macros are supported in game. If blizzard thought jump macros were perfectly fine they could just allow us to macro the inputs in game.

To my understanding it has previously been possible to use macros to do perfect jumps see https://www.elitepvpers.com/forum/w...rfect-wall-jump-macro-using-dump-command.html

But blizzard decided to take it out of the game. Using a 3rd party tool to perform and in-game action is nothing like a simple @mouseover even if the functionality like you put it is the same. I don’t think anyone would claim using a lua unlocker to unlock the in-game commands for movement is fair even if you only used it for a jump macro.

the very definition of shaming can be accomplished without shaming anyone.

nice one, you almost got me here champ!


(as for people being dishonest about jump macro usage why, it's because of fucking assknight autists like you, duh.)

If my boss compliments a coworker for doing a good job I would never turn it into feeling shame about not getting a compliment about the work I put in myself. If I praise someone for working out and eating healthy and it makes someone else feel shamed, that other person should probably seek counseling.

I feel bad for people that turn something positive into something negative. It doesn’t seem like a healthy way to live.

I would immediately respect those that are honest if they came out and admitted to using macros. It feels like you trying to paint me as a hateful individual that just wants to harass others for playing the game in different way than myself.

I don’t hate the guy Xyth. I think he is nutty and I strive to get as close to his smoothness, well knowing it is impossible. I don’t hate and think any less of HairyTreeMan, who I only learned about yesterday, even though he is very open about his macro usage. In fact I respect his openness. In classic there was a hunter called “Steelshot” or something who were known for his jumps and fc’ing as a hunter. He got a discord where he is very open about his usage and even helps show others how they can make a jump macro themselves. He seemed like a happy guy with a healthy attitude.
The list could go on about people I think are amazing even if they use macros.

I am not a hateful individual. I am not the one going for personal insults and name calling. You are.

This is also dangerous thinking though. That's literally forcing people to comply with using a third party software, unbeknownst to them, just to satisfy some rando doubters. The experienced players will be able to tell who's bullshitting anyways, so the "accused" literally gains nothing, or has no reason to prove anything, because the players they'll satisfy are literally irrelevant to them.


Best is to just let the new players gradually get an understanding and naturally form their own opinions than forcing one on them. Otherwise, you might build a discrepancy between actually new players and those who have come to an understanding of the bracket.


If a player is not transparent about their macro usage and someone gets bamboozled by it, then that'll eventually bite the macro player in the ass later on as the other person will know the truth sooner or later by either gaining the experience to be able to tell for themselves, or hear from other experienced players.


I can tell you with 100% certainty that if you put in an actual real amount of hours, you'll be able to tell who's macroing and who's not. The twinking brackets aren't "that" big. You'll easily be able to get enough sample games to be able to tell. It's not that big of a deal.


And if it hit anyone that hard that a person was untruthful about macroing a jump, then they aren't gonna have a great time in life...


But again, your time and efforts, I'm just being a realist here, really.

I agree with your point that people shouldn’t feel forced to install a 3rd party program. But if things are as you say, the people at the top don’t care about it anyway, and why would you install some 3rd party software to satisfy people you think are irrelevant?

Installing a 3rd party tool to compete in a different environment is nothing new. Not sure how esea works nowadays but back in the day you had to have their client running to play on the servers which also helped them combat cheating. Lots of players didn’t seem to mind this.

And no… I am not comparing a simple jump macro to wallhacking or aimbotting. It would be better to compare it to nade scripts that allow you to throw tick perfect smokes and so on in csgo. It used to be banned but is now unbanned and allowed for competitive use. It’s still not the exact same thing as a jump macro but very close.

what is virtue signalling


Anyways.

While I can certainly see the OPs point this could not possibly be the more wrong approach. This is like, fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity wrong.


If you want people to be honest about a certain behavior, you first have to make said behavior socially acceptable. The OP is clearly advocating for the exact opposite. That'll never work.

Just by making this topic, talking about it openly I feel like I’m actually helping jump macros become more accepted. Something is never going to be socially accepted if people are afraid of saying their opinions regarding the topic.

I’ve just learned the word “virtue signaling” from you so I hope I’m not misunderstanding it.

It doesn’t seem like a word that I’m gonna be using very much though.

It is a cousin of accusations of political correctness. In their apparent sermonizing and moral outrage against racism, sexual harassment, climate change and more, progressives are viewed as emotional and weak, or accused of being sanctimonious.

Ironically, wielding the term sometimes serves as virtue signalling in itself. By calling out virtue signalling, the speaker publicly claims the moral high ground.

The term is often used as an ad hominem attack — a charge that dismisses an argument based on the character of the presenter, not the argument itself.

[doublepost=1630825234,1630824940][/doublepost]

If you want to make jump macros more socially acceptable. Maybe it could be an idea to pin guides on how to make said macros with gaming software or link to a safe AHK script? You already have a bunch of guides to help gameplay. Why should this be any different.

Be the change you want to see right? You certainly have the platform to influence something like this

 

[Bestworld]

If my boss compliments a coworker for doing a good job I would never turn it into feeling shame about not getting a compliment about the work I put in myself. If I praise someone for working out and eating healthy and it makes someone else feel shamed, that other person should probably seek counseling.

This isn't touching the point of the post you quoted. There is no authority involved whatsoever. If you wanna keep to that analogy, then a more precise version would be that the co-workers are having an internal, binary argument (2 possible outcomes) - no boss, no authority whatsoever is involved, just the co-workers alone as a collective.

Each co-worker is then, under peer-pressure, forced to take a polygraph test while giving their opinion. If they refuse, then they are already automatically branded indifferent.

Possible authority in our case if we were to break the analogy is Blizzard, which is not involved in this (or we would have seen action from them).

The co-workers in this analogy are the twinks.

This is the point.

I agree with your point that people shouldn’t feel forced to install a 3rd party program. But if things are as you say, the people at the top don’t care about it anyway, and why would you install some 3rd party software to satisfy people you think are irrelevant?

Installing a 3rd party tool to compete in a different environment is nothing new. Not sure how esea works nowadays but back in the day you had to have their client running to play on the servers which also helped them combat cheating. Lots of players didn’t seem to mind this.

This is a fallacy. Your 3rd party software will not be a tool of necessity in order to compete in some specific league or similar (unlike ESEA), nor will it be an anti-cheat tool, unless you want to contradict your previous statements of you not seeing the jump macro as cheating in the first place.

Moreover, ESEA is well known and still not without its doubters / controversies. There are quite a few people who sees this as invasive spyware and feel like its a breach on their privacy, and with good reason...

https://www.pcgamesn.com/esea-pay-1...eir-users-and-farming-bitcoins-their-machines

Installing a 3rd party software just to please a few doubters who don't know better is a big deal...

It feels like that either:

1) You are against the jump macro but not being open about it.

2) You got lied to about whether a certain player is using it or not and that somehow shapes your opinion of the macro rather than the player that lied to you.

In either of these scenarios, the outcome is a lot more likely to have a damaging effect rather than a positive one.

You definitely don't seem unbiased, judging by the amount of posts by now.

 

[macrogodx]

This isn't touching the point of the post you quoted. There is no authority involved whatsoever. If you wanna keep to that analogy, then a more precise version would be that the co-workers are having an internal, binary argument (2 possible outcomes) - no boss, no authority whatsoever is involved, just the co-workers alone as a collective.

Each co-worker is then, under peer-pressure, forced to take a polygraph test while giving their opinion. If they refuse, then they are already automatically branded indifferent.

Possible authority in our case if we were to break the analogy is Blizzard, which is not involved in this (or we would have seen action from them).

The co-workers in this analogy are the twinks.

This is the point.



This is a fallacy. Your 3rd party software will not be a tool of necessity in order to compete in some specific league or similar (unlike ESEA), nor will it be an anti-cheat tool, unless you want to contradict your previous statements of you not seeing the jump macro as cheating in the first place.

Moreover, ESEA is well known and still not without its doubters / controversies. There are quite a few people who sees this as invasive spyware and feel like its a breach on their privacy, and with good reason...

https://www.pcgamesn.com/esea-pay-1...eir-users-and-farming-bitcoins-their-machines

Installing a 3rd party software just to please a few doubters who don't know better is a big deal...

It feels like that either:

1) You are against the jump macro but not being open about it.

2) You got lied to about whether a certain player is using it or not and that somehow shapes your opinion of the macro rather than the player that lied to you.

In either of these scenarios, the outcome is a lot more likely to have a damaging effect rather than a positive one.

You definitely don't seem unbiased, judging by the amount of posts by now.

You are way overthinking everthing. I am not an authority that is going to force anyone to do anything. If the tool was created it would be free to use for those that wants to. If it helps, consider it something similair to having a virtual keyboard on your screen that lights up and shows your viewers your inputs. This is used in other games and is completely optional. No one is feeling forced to use it. Yes it would not just promote natural jumpers it, it could also expose those that are dishonest about their use. The trick for those would simply be to avoid using a tool that will probably not become very popular.

If a team of tournament organizers wanted to make it mandatory the competitors can just decide not to join and if the general consensus in the twink community is that macros are good for the game, that tournament would probably not become very popular and nothing of value was lost.

It feels like that either:

1) You are against the jump macro but not being open about it.

2) You got lied to about whether a certain player is using it or not and that somehow shapes your opinion of the macro rather than the player that lied to you.

I fail to see why this matters. Clearly I would prefer macros not being a part of the game, but they are and they have been for a long time no. At this point they are here to stay and I have accepted it. But jump macro usage can insist and evovle just fine while trying to encourage natural jumping too. I don't have some ulterior motive.

My opinion about the jump macro is partly from my own experience and yes the dislike that people claim to be natural when they're not. Dishonesty is problem in many fields such as bodybuilding, advertising and the cosmetic world only to name a few.

Yesterday I downloaded the arctium classic era sandbox. I did the far ally jump (the one where depending on how you perform it you have to go back and forth 4 times before you're at the top. Without a macro I only managed to do the entire thing 5 times in a row and it required a lot of focus on my part. Now I'm far from being a top jumper so other people can surely do it way better naturally. I then tried a jump macro and I did the same thing 20-30 times in a row without fail. It was also way faster than when I did it without the macro. I am happy about my natural performance and being able to pull off that jump in real games, but it does make me sad how much easier it is with a macro and knowing I and others like me will be compared to unnatural results like that.

So to put it simply. Yes I have preference and others are free to have their. I'm not trying to hide anything.

Also besides you perhaps not perhaps not liking the topic I created it would seem weird to me to just ignore the ones that respond with serious replies. I am a single individual responding to others that have engaged with my thread. It would be hard for me to avoid making serveral post.

Obviously I will lose interest at some point and if you want to overanalyze everything I say I'll probably lose interest sooner, so keep up the work if that's your goal
[doublepost=1630850094,1630849651][/doublepost]I really hope someone takes note of this

If you want to make jump macros more socially acceptable. Maybe it could be an idea to pin guides on how to make said macros with gaming software or link to a safe AHK script? You already have a bunch of guides to help gameplay. Why should this be any different.

In a community that seems to have widely accepted the use it seems strange to not help it become more accesible to everyone.

 

[nathaniel]

I think this is such a grey area.

You CANNOT use in-game macros to play the game for you... however you can use 3rd party software in order to do this.

I don't do it myself, and I find it frustrating to play against people that do... but at the same time I cannot complain to much as I also use 3rd party software (such as addons like Battleground Targets) to improve gameplay, which we would put me at a competitive advantage against someone who does not...

 

[Selaya]

nice doublespeak here sir, keep digging your own grave!
i shall reiterate my original statement in this case. go troll somewhere else.

 

[Symandria]

My personal opinion is the use of jump macros is "cheating" because it directly goes against both the TOS rules against use of 3rd party software, and because it violates Blizzard's official stance of 1 key press per in game action, and a jump macro binds movement + jumping together.

That said, Blizzard is not enforcing it. That means people are using them. That means not using them means choosing to play at a disadvantage due to either a belief about what should be fair or fear that one day Blizzard might take action. I personally don't fault people for choosing to use macros, I only have an issue with them for jumping to locations that untrained people Cannot follow them to, as "I consider" safespotting of any kind to be cheating.

I choose not to use macros in PVP. However I will openly admit to and do use, and recommend others use, Arctium to practice their jumping skills in a sandbox so that they: A) Have as much practice time as they'd like. B) Don't have to hurt teammates by going off to practice during a live game.


For anyone who wants to learn how to jump really well I recommend the following guide by Xyth:
https://xpoff.com/threads/in-depth-wsg-jump-guide.93020/#post-1227760

This spreadsheet that breaks down which races and genders can do each jump:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jHwFgo270Nblz0ygs9jjhliLWaDdqwhswxA1J7lqwBI/edit#gid=0

And this discord if it is still active, is also dedicated to twink jumps in WSG:
https://xpoff.com/threads/discord-channel-to-learn-classic-wsg-jumps.93018/#post-1227950

 

[macrogodx]

I think this is such a grey area.

You CANNOT use in-game macros to play the game for you... however you can use 3rd party software in order to do this.

I don't do it myself, and I find it frustrating to play against people that do... but at the same time I cannot complain to much as I also use 3rd party software (such as addons like Battleground Targets) to improve gameplay, which we would put me at a competitive advantage against someone who does not...

Are you really comparing in game addons to 3rd party software? Blizzard can easily restrict what addons can or can't do to keep things fair. They have no control over true 3rd party programs.

My personal opinion is the use of jump macros is "cheating" because it directly goes against both the TOS rules against use of 3rd party software, and because it violates Blizzard's official stance of 1 key press per in game action, and a jump macro binds movement + jumping together.

That said, Blizzard is not enforcing it. That means people are using them. That means not using them means choosing to play at a disadvantage due to either a belief about what should be fair or fear that one day Blizzard might take action. I personally don't fault people for choosing to use macros, I only have an issue with them for jumping to locations that untrained people Cannot follow them to, as "I consider" safespotting of any kind to be cheating.

I choose not to use macros in PVP. However I will openly admit to and do use, and recommend others use, Arctium to practice their jumping skills in a sandbox so that they: A) Have as much practice time as they'd like. B) Don't have to hurt teammates by going off to practice during a live game.

For anyone who wants to learn how to jump really well I recommend the following guide by Xyth:
https://xpoff.com/threads/in-depth-wsg-jump-guide.93020/#post-1227760

This spreadsheet that breaks down which races and genders can do each jump:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jHwFgo270Nblz0ygs9jjhliLWaDdqwhswxA1J7lqwBI/edit#gid=0

And this discord if it is still active, is also dedicated to twink jumps in WSG:
https://xpoff.com/threads/discord-channel-to-learn-classic-wsg-jumps.93018/#post-1227950

It seems it's impossible to mention the word jump macro on this forum without it turning into a dicussion whether it's ok to use or not. Maybe it's my own fault for responding to people that clearly misunderstood the point from the beginning.

nice doublespeak here sir, keep digging your own grave!
i shall reiterate my original statement in this case. go troll somewhere else.

So as a head admin what do you think of seeking out a safe AHK jump macro that could be pinned so everyone, who wants to, can easily get on an even playing field no matter what hardware they use? Why keep this information hidden from new players that potentially come to this site to min max their gameplay.

 

[Selaya]

[ ... ]

It seems it's impossible to mention the word jump macro on this forum without it turning into a dicussion whether it's ok to use or not. Maybe it's my own fault for responding to people that clearly misunderstood the point from the beginning.

[ ... ]

No. It's your own damn fucking fault for creating a negative QQ thread like this.

[ ... ]
So as a head admin what do you think of seeking out a safe AHK jump macro that could be pinned so everyone, who wants to, can easily get on an even playing field no matter what hardware they use? Why keep this information hidden from new players that potentially come to this site to min max their gameplay.

Honestly? Go for it!
However, this thread is not the place for it. It started as a negative QQ and only ever turned to shit from there.

 

[macrogodx]

Honestly? Go for it!
However, this thread is not the place for it. It started as a negative QQ and only ever turned to shit from there.

My macros are simply to strong to release for the rest of the world to use. Maybe a jump macro user such as yourself or one of the many others on this forum could step up to the task!

also lmao @ still thinking this was just a QQ thread. You must be one of the most dense people I have had the displeasure of chatting with for a while.

 

[Selaya]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_(psychology)

 

[Beercan]

So… many… words…

 

[Symandria]

It seems it's impossible to mention the word jump macro on this forum without it turning into a dicussion whether it's ok to use or not. Maybe it's my own fault for responding to people that clearly misunderstood the point from the beginning.

Well to address your point head on, it wouldn't work well. If I did make software to track jump timing and display that in real time it would be worthless for 3 reasons: A) Macros can easily contain a random component so that it's still within the functional time range, thus making it appear human. B) Anyone who was halfway competent could probably just slightly modify the homebrew software to display the desired time ranges even if they used the same macros they do now. C) Why would a cheater knowingly use the software if it did work and would expose them on live streams? I will point out most twinks aren't streamers, but that seems besides the point.


I do know how to program, I dislike the use of 3rd party macros in a pvp setting. That said Blizzard is really the only one with the power to actually change things, and they've chosen to ignore flagrant and consistent cheating since shortly after Classic launched. Gold buying is pervasive, bots have been known to have an expected lifespan on average of at least a month per account, and customer support is barely existent. It's sad, it's not the way the game was like in actual TBC where there was an active arms race against cheaters, but it's the game we have.

 

[iaccidentallytwink]

Any "natural" jump can obviously be recorded and replayed, or better yet, we can just program randomized/seeded "natural movements" if we want to get even more elaborate. Short of visually inspecting someone's keyboard, what you're asking for isn't really possible. That's why many speedrunners have a handcam requirement when streaming. You can eliminate the simplest macroers of the lot using built in mouse macro software, but anyone who can edit a simple AHK script will get around this fairly simply.